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The rules for overwatch state that the unit targeted by a charge can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker. Overwatch is resolved like a shooting attack with the exception that you need a 6 to hit, irrespective of modifiers.

Now, the unit shooting overwatch does not "shoot as if it were the shooting phase". Most notably, it cannot chose a target as described in Step 2 of the core rules for shooting. It only "resolves attacks", and it does so automatically and immediately against the unit that declared the charge (e.g. step 4 of the shooting rules in the core rules).

If the target-selection is skipped in favour of the charging unit being already the target by default, there's nothing preventing the unit shooting overwatch to resolve its attacks against a unit it cannot see (even with normal bolters, etc..). The question of whether a shooting unit can see another unit only comes up in step 2 of choosing targets, which Overwatch overrides by making the charging unit the target by default.


Obviously not RAI in any way and not how people play it, but hey.

Your target still has to be in range and los its still checked the only difference is there is one legal choice of target.

Note guns like mortars that ignore los do get round this

You missed a few things in your analysis, in red for your consideration:

3. Overwatch
Each time a charge is declared against a unit, the target unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker. A target unit can potentially fire Overwatch several times a turn, though it cannot fire if there are any enemy models within 1" of it. Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers.

The normal rules for a shooting attack require you to have LOS and be in Range.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Obviously not RAI in any way and not how people play it, but hey.

I don't think it's RAW either.

The important part, to me, and the part not in your rules quote is that the attack "uses all the normal rules". So you do go through each and every step of the charging phase, including step 2.

Step 1 is limited with the additional restriction by the statement that "the target unit can immediately fire Overwatch", so there is only one choice.

Step 2 is limited with the additional restriction that you can only "fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker", but other than that the phase "uses all the normal rules". This is the phase when you choose weapons, check LOS and also check ranges.

So I think the RAI and RAW match up. Weapon selection, range and LOS all apply in overwatch because Step 2 is still happening.

 alextroy wrote:
The normal rules for a shooting attack require you to have LOS and be in Range.

The normal rules for shooting with a unit (Step 1 - 4) do, specifically in step 2.

The normal rules for resolving a shooting attack (Step 4) do not, specifically because those criteria are only checked in step 2.

No?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Uther wrote:


The important part, to me, and the part not in your rules quote is that the attack "uses all the normal rules". So you do go through each and every step of the charging phase, including step 2..

Possibly. To me it doesn't read like "the unit shoots as if it were the shooting phase", it only "resolves attacks", which seems to point directly to step 4, skipping the validity of the target (including LoS and actually even weapon range) as Step 2 doesn't happen and the target is automatically and by default the charging unit.

This requires pedantry, so I apologize in advance for it.
It says "uses ALL the normal rules". Stop ignoring the word all. All includes steps 1-4, and the overwatch rules limit some of the choices in those steps. All mean step two (LOS check) is used, as it is part of ALL the normal rules, and no exceptions are listed in Overwatch for that particular section of ALL the rules.
This game works by giving you rules, and then altering them with specific phrases. Without a specific phrase telling you not to, you use steps 1-4. Modified by the rules they have given you.

Yes, you need LOS and Range. This is why you can charge from 9" and be immune to flamers.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Possibly. To me it doesn't read like "the unit shoots as if it were the shooting phase", it only "resolves attacks", which seems to point directly to step 4, skipping the validity of the target (including LoS and actually even weapon range) as Step 2 doesn't happen and the target is automatically and by default the charging unit.

If you were to jump directly to step 4 then you haven't chose your weapon and you haven't determined the number of shots which are all done in step 3. So you could try to argue that you don't have to apply LOS, but your opponent will then argue that your not firing with anything either. "All the normal rules" means all the rules.

Aside from that supporting the the RAW means it all applies there's also clear evidence that the RAI means that they all apply.

I just found this, for example, in the Designers' commentary "Note however that the unit being charged still obeys the normal rules for targeting when it fires Overwatch, and so, if a model cannot see the charging unit, it will not be able to fire Overwatch." So that supports my RAW interpretation that all the Steps of shooting are applied with additional limitations restricting which unit fires and which unit can be its target.

And this one from the Stepping into a new edition PDF:
Q: Does a weapon have to be in range of the charging unit to fire Overwatch at it?
A: Yes.

So range also applies, which again backs up that the rule means for you to apply all the normal rules including all of Step 2.

OP’s interpretation isn’t RAI or RAW, so simply isn’t valid I’m afraid.