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Gentleman, I am new to CSM. Ave Dominus Nox. Do I have something here?


I've picked up 3x Shadowspear Obliterators, a squad of CSM, and a Terminator Sorcerer because those models look awesome and get me to 500 points. But I'm already thinking about what next. I had initially assumed that I should go for a Terminator Lord to eventually work my way to a Bringers of Despair Detachment, but a thought arrested my attention today: what is the Chaos version of the Smash Captain?

Searching, I found BoLS's write up: https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2019/04/40k-chaos-smash-captains-bring-the-pain.html

But there is another variant:

Legion: Black Legion

Chaos Lord with Jump Pack (118 points)
- Mark of Khorne
- Thunder Hammer
- Power Sword (Spineshiver Blade)
- Warlord: Exalted Champion

Terminator Sorcerer (112 points)
- Mark of Tzeench
- Powers: Warptime, Diabolic Strength

As written, you don't need to attack with Spineshiver to gain the addition +1d6 attacks with its profile; you just get them each time the model fights. With Exalted Champion and Diabolic Strength, the Lord should have base 6 Strength and 6 Attacks. It should be able to attack six times with the thunderhammer (Str 12, AP -3, D3, -1 to hit rolls) and then +1d6 times with Spineshiver (Str 7, AP -3, D1). Alternately 6+1d6 attacks with Spineshiver for more accurate anti-infantry.

Deepstrike both the Lord and Sorcerer T2, cast Diabolic Strength on the Lord, Warptime the Lord 12" (flying over a screen), Charge, Fight with your 6+1d6 attacks. If the Lord survives, 3 CP to do it again with Khorne's stratagem.

Alternate options: nothing preventing you from having a Dark Apostle as well for the +1 to wound prayers, but those models are harder to deep strike and adds 100 extra points to pull off the gambit. Can also employ VotW for +1 to Wound for an extra CP. Could also swap Exalted Champion's one extra attack for the Flame's of Spite WL trait of a mortal wound on wound rolls of 6+, which would pair well with VotW and Spineshiver's extra attacks. One way to further robust this approach is to spend 1 CP for Council of Traitors, giving the Terminator Sorcerer the Warp Lord trait to reroll 1s on Psychic tests.


For comparison, this melee blender competes with the Daemon Lord with Wings:
Daemon Prince with Wings (180 points)
2x Malefic Talons
Intoxicating Elixir
Exalted Champion

9 attacks (Str 8, -2 AP, 2D).

Going Khorne means you get +1 attack, but lose the Intoxicating Elixir. Talisman of the Burning Blood helps with charge rolls though for greater consistency. The DP cannot employ Khorne's fight twice stratagem, only Heretic Astartes Infantry.

Daemon Prince's powers are important. Warptime moves the DP 12", just like the Chaos Lord. Diabolic Strength would instead bump the DP to 10x S10 attacks, but at substantially greater risk of failing the charge.

A Sorcerer could deep strike to support the Daemon Prince, but at greater aggregate cost.


It seems that for 50 extra points than the Daemon Prince, the Chaos Jump Lord + Sorcerer combo with Thunderhammer and Spineshiver provide greater consistency, nearly as many attacks, with up to 6 attacks providing higher AP and Damage, and the option to potentially attack twice. The Chaos Lord would also have a higher invulnerable save.

Am I missing something, or does this seem like a really good combo?

For comparison, this melee blender competes with the Daemon Lord with Wings:
Daemon Prince with Wings (180 points)
2x Malefic Talons
Intoxicating Elixir
Exalted Champion

9 attacks (Str 8, -2 AP, 2D).

"Blender", pfah!

With Prescience and their warlord trait a:
Flawless Host DP with Dual Talons and Intoxicating Elixir averages 17/20 attacks depending on if they attack Imperium or not.
Flawless Host Chaos Lord with Murder Sword averages 8/9 Mortal Wounds against their target depending on if they are Imperium or not.

There are your blenders.

You cannot Warptime after deep striking, anymore.

You can check out the CSM tactics thread. A lot of ideas there. Got a lot of variants of the deadly chaos lord brought up in that thread. And yeah, you can't warptime after you deep strike anymore. Your footslogging exalted champion or dark apostle will also be nowhere near your chaos lord if he is deep striking in.

 MinMax wrote:
You cannot Warptime after deep striking, anymore.

Well that was the basis for a lot of thought the past few days... good thing the Sorcerer was primarily to cast Prescience on the Obliterators...

Anyone have a good link to a calculator that looks at 2d6 results and let's you reroll one or both dice?

 Red Acolyte wrote:

 MinMax wrote:
You cannot Warptime after deep striking, anymore.

Well that was the basis for a lot of thought the past few days... good thing the Sorcerer was primarily to cast Prescience on the Obliterators...

Anyone have a good link to a calculator that looks at 2d6 results and let's you reroll one or both dice?

If you need a Nine keep anything 4 or better re roll everything else.

Run him in a Host Raptorial detachment with someone else with the Warlord Trait Deep Striking with him. Tell your opponent to have fun screening against a dude who only needs a 7 on his charge roll from DS.

I quite like Don Hoosons idea of an EC execution blender

https://donhooson.wordpress.com/2019/04/05/why-everyone-should-beware-the-emperors-children-master-of-execution/

I love it how stupidly killy the HQ of chaos have become. This is what Chaos should be all about honestly.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
I love it how stupidly killy the HQ of chaos have become. This is what Chaos should be all about honestly.

They do require a lot of buffs to get into ludicrous territory, not sure that counts lol, but still.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
I love it how stupidly killy the HQ of chaos have become. This is what Chaos should be all about honestly.

yes pity that with the new assassins now characters are killed easily, base a list on some big characters and build support units for them guess is a big mistake, you face couple of vindicare and you fethed up (and in ETC many imperium list at least 2 vindicare if not 3).

Captyn_Bob wrote:
I quite like Don Hoosons idea of an EC execution blender

https://donhooson.wordpress.com/2019/04/05/why-everyone-should-beware-the-emperors-children-master-of-execution/

That... that is one of the worst treatments of probability and expected results I have ever seen in 40k. Yes, let's just treat multiple abilities keying off of 6+ dice rolls as the given result. Of course.

But we can run the actual math.

Oh wow, I didn't read it as I knew the executioner could be become one hell of a blender but dat math indeed XD

 blackmage wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
I love it how stupidly killy the HQ of chaos have become. This is what Chaos should be all about honestly.

yes pity that with the new assassins now characters are killed easily, base a list on some big characters and build support units for them guess is a big mistake, you face couple of vindicare and you fethed up (and in ETC many imperium list at least 2 vindicare if not 3).

The thing about a Deep Strike Assault Lord is that he does his thing before the enemy gets to shoot him though. It's why Slamguinius has worked so well; I don't see any reason why Slamgron wouldn't work too.

u need to make a 9" charge, if you fail opponent dont even need an assassin to delete your Lord. Dont forget Ba have stratagems like descent of angels which make a jump pack unit charge 3d6, chaos dont have it, when slamguinius was common, assassins wasn't. Now every small/medium infantry character with no FNP or some ways to deny wounds beside inv saves, is in real danger when face vindicares.

7" charge with reroll. Host Raptorial with Talisman of Burning Blood.

uhmm and do you plan to play raptors/warp talons to get a detachment or just lords? I dont take in any consideration sub par units like warp talons/raptors.

 blackmage wrote:
uhmm and do you plan to play raptors/warp talons to get a detachment or just lords? I dont take in any consideration sub par units like warp talons/raptors.

You don't need raptors or talons to make whatever detachment with that lord(s) Host Raptoral.

The Host Raptoral (and other specialist detachments) can, technically, have zero units that benefit from it in the detachment. You obviously would never do this, but you can.

If you really want to maximize the value of that CP then you can make a Supreme Command of jump pack HQ's your specialist detachment rather than an Outrider.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
The Host Raptoral (and other specialist detachments) can, technically, have zero units that benefit from it in the detachment. You obviously would never do this, but you can.

If you really want to maximize the value of that CP then you can make a Supreme Command of jump pack HQ's your specialist detachment rather than an Outrider.

Actually wouldn't that not anymore be a blender and just be a Meat grinder detachment'

That would be a lot of either thunder hammers, or special Chainswords.

Did csm get access to thunder hammers?

 koooaei wrote:
Did csm get access to thunder hammers?

Yep.
For charachters and chosen.