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I have heard these two Space Marine groups at the time of the great crusade were big rivals due to their similar specialties, and I wanted to hear what you all thought of the two.

What did these two do better than each other? Besides one being better in offense and the other in defense, there's got to be more about the two that made them rivals besides those two strengths.

What about their Primarchs? What were their pros and cons?

The Iron Warriors did a lot of the legwork for the Great Crusade, and took a lot of the dirty missions that none of the other legions would touch because they were thankless and dangerous. They never got any credit for any of that, oftentimes other legions would swoop in at the last minute and perform the killing blow and then take credit for the entire victory that wouldn't have been possible without the blood, sweat, and toil of the Iron Warriors. The Iron Warriors didn't even have the respect of being known as the best legion in siege warfare because somehow the Imperial Fists were known for that, while many of the primarchs and legions thought of the Iron Warriors as mere grunts and glorified ditch diggers.

Basically, the Iron Warriors did a lot of the background work that made the feats of the other primarchs and legions possible and were never acknowledged for it... beyond that, were spat on and disrespected for it. That anger toward the Imperium drove both Perturabo and his legion to chaos.

The Iron Warriors hated the Imperial Fists in the same way that an extremely competent person in their career hates the far less competent, but more sociable subordinate that gets recognized and promoted over them.

w1zard wrote:
The Iron Warriors did a lot of the legwork for the Great Crusade, and took a lot of the dirty missions that none of the other legions would touch because they were thankless and dangerous. They never got any credit for any of that, oftentimes other legions would swoop in at the last minute and perform the killing blow and then take credit for the entire victory that wouldn't have been possible without the blood, sweat, and toil of the Iron Warriors. The Iron Warriors didn't even have the respect of being known as the best legion in siege warfare because somehow the Imperial Fists were known for that, while many of the primarchs and legions thought of the Iron Warriors as mere grunts and glorified ditch diggers.

Basically, the Iron Warriors did a lot of the background work that made the feats of the other primarchs and legions possible and were never acknowledged for it... beyond that, were spat on and disrespected for it. That anger toward the Imperium drove both Perturabo and his legion to chaos.

The Iron Warriors hated the Imperial Fists in the same way that an extremely competent person in their career hates the far less competent, but more sociable subordinate that gets recognized and promoted over them.

Now I kinda relate to them, I've had so many losers get promotions over me for nothing it's not even funny. Though I have heard people say that Pertutabo was easily offended, I guess that was either old canon, or people misunderstanding the lore.

dorn was pretty good at building fortifications, perty was pretty good at breaking into fortifications..rivalry naturally ensues.

w1zard wrote:
The Iron Warriors did a lot of the legwork for the Great Crusade, and took a lot of the dirty missions that none of the other legions would touch because they were thankless and dangerous. They never got any credit for any of that, oftentimes other legions would swoop in at the last minute and perform the killing blow and then take credit for the entire victory that wouldn't have been possible without the blood, sweat, and toil of the Iron Warriors. The Iron Warriors didn't even have the respect of being known as the best legion in siege warfare because somehow the Imperial Fists were known for that, while many of the primarchs and legions thought of the Iron Warriors as mere grunts and glorified ditch diggers.

Basically, the Iron Warriors did a lot of the background work that made the feats of the other primarchs and legions possible and were never acknowledged for it... beyond that, were spat on and disrespected for it. That anger toward the Imperium drove both Perturabo and his legion to chaos.

The Iron Warriors hated the Imperial Fists in the same way that an extremely competent person in their career hates the far less competent, but more sociable subordinate that gets recognized and promoted over them.

Small nitpick here. Dorn was just as capable in the field of siege warfare as Perturabo was. Also what kind of ree do you have to be to have Rogal Dorn be more sociable than you? The real difference between the two is that Dorn was content with duty being it's own reward and had a good outlook on things. He was strong, resolute and noble. Perturabo... not so much. Queue the meme that is

Perturabo: Cold and Bitter
Dorn: Cold and Better

Not sure that there's anything definitive on who did or does what better between the Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists. Both were seen as highly competent at what they did. The Iron Warriors tend to be portrayed more as vehicle centric while the Imperial Fists tend to be portrayed as more heavy infantry focused in the 40k setting, though thats perhaps more a function of modern codex design.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

w1zard wrote:
The Iron Warriors did a lot of the legwork for the Great Crusade, and took a lot of the dirty missions that none of the other legions would touch because they were thankless and dangerous. They never got any credit for any of that, oftentimes other legions would swoop in at the last minute and perform the killing blow and then take credit for the entire victory that wouldn't have been possible without the blood, sweat, and toil of the Iron Warriors. The Iron Warriors didn't even have the respect of being known as the best legion in siege warfare because somehow the Imperial Fists were known for that, while many of the primarchs and legions thought of the Iron Warriors as mere grunts and glorified ditch diggers.

Basically, the Iron Warriors did a lot of the background work that made the feats of the other primarchs and legions possible and were never acknowledged for it... beyond that, were spat on and disrespected for it. That anger toward the Imperium drove both Perturabo and his legion to chaos.

The Iron Warriors hated the Imperial Fists in the same way that an extremely competent person in their career hates the far less competent, but more sociable subordinate that gets recognized and promoted over them.

Small nitpick here. Dorn was just as capable in the field of siege warfare as Perturabo was. Also what kind of ree do you have to be to have Rogal Dorn be more sociable than you? The real difference between the two is that Dorn was content with duty being it's own reward and had a good outlook on things. He was strong, resolute and noble. Perturabo... not so much. Queue the meme that is

Perturabo: Cold and Bitter
Dorn: Cold and Better

The Imperial Fists weren't strung out over a bajillion garrisons and told to keep a lid on things with large unhappy populations while also having to keep up the crusade forefront in the same way. The Fists got the honor of being the Guardians of Terra, while the Iron Warriors were doing the work of occupation. Likewise, they Fists didnt get their thunder stolen routinely, they were lauded and laureled constantly.

Dorn was always seen and portrayed in a positive, if taciturn and stubborn, light. Not so Perturabo, even during the HH, he's usually just not mentioned at all. The Imperial Fists are given a much more prominent place in general, both within the game universe and actual GW/BL fluff.

Hence the bitterness

A significant part of why the bulk of the Imperial Fists were maintained as a strategic reserve is they were also masters of void warfare, and built up a hugely powerful fleet around the Phalanx. This one fact alone probably accounts for much of the divergent history between the two Legions.

Plenty of Imperial Fists were also scattered in garrisons too though, but the Imperial Fists tended to view their role as liberators instead of conquerors, and appear to have devoted more effort into leaving stable worlds behind that need reduced garrisons.

The IV Legion was actually one of the most heavily honoured in the early Great Crusade, but they fell beside the wayside and didn't regain their former position with the reunion with their Primarch (unlike many Legions). This suggests a lot of the outcome of the Iron Warriors must be left at the feet of Perturabo himself.

Iron Warriors had an edge in pitched field battles over the Imperial Fists though- they are somewhat like the Iron Warriors with a heavy degree of mechanisation and a well-equipped super-heavy contigent. The IV is also a larger Legion than the VII, which helps in such battles. This probably partly lead to their use in attrition roles during sieges.

So on the whole- both equally good at sieges, with the Fists having the edge in void combat and constructing fortresses and societies, with the Warriors being better at open, pitched battles and attrition. These subtly different lesser specialties helped lead the Legions down diverging paths- attritional frontliner grunts and strategic reserve conquerors.

Perterabo was also well know for being way beyond reasonable when it comes to brutality, to other xenos, other humans, and his own soldiers. He was a gifted scientist, and he took many of the most natural concepts to their absolute literal breaking point (survival of the fittest, natural selection, etc).

 Togusa wrote:
Perterabo was also well know for being way beyond reasonable when it comes to brutality, to other xenos, other humans, and his own soldiers. He was a gifted scientist, and he took many of the most natural concepts to their absolute literal breaking point (survival of the fittest, natural selection, etc).

It's a shame his skill in science and mechanics was shadowed by his brutality, he was a good Primarch.

 Jazzylee wrote:
Though I have heard people say that Pertutabo was easily offended, I guess that was either old canon, or people misunderstanding the lore.

Or just an alternate viewpoint. Almost everyone considers Steve Jobs to be a brilliant businessman, however a lot of people did not like him personally and he was by all accounts not a very "friendly" individual, especially towards people he did not consider important. Does the second fact invalidate the first, or vice versa? I think not.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Dorn was just as capable in the field of siege warfare as Perturabo was.

Perturabo was a far more competent commander in terms of strategy than Dorn was. The Siege of Terra (where Perturabo tore down Dorn's best defenses) and the Iron Cage Incident (where Perturabo would have wiped out the Imperial Fists completely, Dorn included, if not for Guilliman's timely intervention) definitively prove this. Dorn got the job of fortifying Terra and the surrounding systems, and all of the glory that came with that not because he was the best at such things, but because of his sheer stubborn loyalty that the emperor knew he could count on. That kind of situation is pretty rage inducing for a person like Perturabo, who was very meritocratic and thought that his work and the results it got should have spoken for themselves.

 Togusa wrote:
Perterabo was also well know for being way beyond reasonable when it comes to brutality, to other xenos, other humans, and his own soldiers. He was a gifted scientist, and he took many of the most natural concepts to their absolute literal breaking point (survival of the fittest, natural selection, etc).

It wasn't that he was intentionally brutal, he simply reduced the idea of warfare down to a concept he could understand and work with: mathematics. This made him seem cold and impersonal, and maybe he was a little, but that is what happens when you force a scientist to become a general when he doesn't really want the job.

 Haighus wrote:
Plenty of Imperial Fists were also scattered in garrisons too though, but the Imperial Fists tended to view their role as liberators instead of conquerors, and appear to have devoted more effort into leaving stable worlds behind that need reduced garrisons.

Part of that is a self-reinforcing loop, though. The Iron Warriors tended to be asked to occupy and hold more rebellious planets in the first place, like Delgas II.

w1zard wrote:
Perturabo was a far more competent commander in terms of strategy than Dorn was. The Siege of Terra (where Perturabo tore down Dorn's best defenses) and the Iron Cage Incident (where Perturabo would have wiped out the Imperial Fists completely, Dorn included, if not for Guilliman's timely intervention) definitively prove this. Dorn got the job of fortifying Terra and the surrounding systems, and all of the glory that came with that not because he was the best at such things, but because of his sheer stubborn loyalty that the emperor knew he could count on. That kind of situation is pretty rage inducing for a person like Perturabo, who was very meritocratic and thought that his work and the results it got should have spoken for themselves.

Yet Perturabo was outmanoeuvred by non-Primarchs in several major battles- he would have lost the Battle of Phall to Alexis Pollux if Chaos itself had not intervened, and was unable to complete his objectives on Tallarn against a ragtag collection of opposition (mostly Imperial Army!), not even ultimately winning the planet.

All we know about the Siege of Terra at present is that the Traitor forces eventually push their way right to the gate- we don't know how they do this until the next few books come out.

The Iron Cage is an example of Dorn failing due to emotional instability, but it is no more so than Perturabo wiping out Olympia in rage and being forced to join the Traitor cause.

locarno24 wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
Plenty of Imperial Fists were also scattered in garrisons too though, but the Imperial Fists tended to view their role as liberators instead of conquerors, and appear to have devoted more effort into leaving stable worlds behind that need reduced garrisons.

Part of that is a self-reinforcing loop, though. The Iron Warriors tended to be asked to occupy and hold more rebellious planets in the first place, like Delgas II.

True, and much of the latter Great Crusade has this pattern. However, the Imperial Fists do seem to be better empire-builders- the FW fluff specifically notes them as being good at this, and Dorn was the only Primarch other than Guilliman, to my knowledge, to be commanding an interstellar empire upon his reunion with the Imperium. This together heavily suggests that only the Ultramarines were better empire builders.

I really think the Legion secondary specialities (other than siege warfare) explain the diverging paths of the Legions, and the character and upbringing of the Primarchs explains most of the rest (with a healthy dollop of Chaos influence probably being thrown in- for example, Warmaster Horus deliberately sending the Iron Warriors on terrible assignments after Davin to try and break them).

w1zard wrote:

 Jazzylee wrote:
Though I have heard people say that Pertutabo was easily offended, I guess that was either old canon, or people misunderstanding the lore.

Or just an alternate viewpoint. Almost everyone considers Steve Jobs to be a brilliant businessman, however a lot of people did not like him personally and he was by all accounts not a very "friendly" individual, especially towards people he did not consider important. Does the second fact invalidate the first, or vice versa? I think not.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Dorn was just as capable in the field of siege warfare as Perturabo was.

Perturabo was a far more competent commander in terms of strategy than Dorn was. The Siege of Terra (where Perturabo tore down Dorn's best defenses) and the Iron Cage Incident (where Perturabo would have wiped out the Imperial Fists completely, Dorn included, if not for Guilliman's timely intervention) definitively prove this. Dorn got the job of fortifying Terra and the surrounding systems, and all of the glory that came with that not because he was the best at such things, but because of his sheer stubborn loyalty that the emperor knew he could count on. That kind of situation is pretty rage inducing for a person like Perturabo, who was very meritocratic and thought that his work and the results it got should have spoken for themselves.

 Togusa wrote:
Perterabo was also well know for being way beyond reasonable when it comes to brutality, to other xenos, other humans, and his own soldiers. He was a gifted scientist, and he took many of the most natural concepts to their absolute literal breaking point (survival of the fittest, natural selection, etc).

It wasn't that he was intentionally brutal, he simply reduced the idea of warfare down to a concept he could understand and work with: mathematics. This made him seem cold and impersonal, and maybe he was a little, but that is what happens when you force a scientist to become a general when he doesn't really want the job.

umm your claims of Perty's superiority vs Dorn is pretty flawed. the Siege of Terra was won by Dorn, whom held off until help arrived (in a siege situation being relvied is a win, the idea of a siege defence is to hold off until your enemy runs out of time, useally by being reinforced. Dorn knew Gulliman and the Lion where both en route, his entire plan likely was to hold off until Gulliman could arrive and turn the tide) and the iron cage well.. Dorn wasn't in his right mind, he'd been driven near nuts with greif.

This is exactly what the Perturabo novel should have been about, rather than the unnecessary page fillers on Dantioch that didn't add anything to the story.

Perturabo decimating his own legion because they couldn't keep up with Primarch-lead legions was pretty pure spite. There's also a short story in one of the collections about a pair of Iterators (or Rememberancers) doing biographies of the Primarchs and arriving on Olympia shortly before it went into rebellion, and meeting the grandson or something of a guy that beat Perturabo in a contest of sculpture. If I recall correctly Perturabo, much like Fulgrim, made a perfectly executed statue, and the other sculptor made a much more human statue; Perturabo wrecked both but made sure you could still tell his was technically excellent.

I think that's what I dislike about the new HH fluff is that the Traitor Primarchs, and their traitor sons, don't really have any heroic qualities. The World Eaters, for example, were supposed to be paragons of martial excellence, and the retcon is that they were all turned into Berzerkers and Angron was lobotomized.

BrianDavion wrote:
umm your claims of Perty's superiority vs Dorn is pretty flawed. the Siege of Terra was won by Dorn, whom held off until help arrived (in a siege situation being relvied is a win, the idea of a siege defence is to hold off until your enemy runs out of time, useally by being reinforced. Dorn knew Gulliman and the Lion where both en route, his entire plan likely was to hold off until Gulliman could arrive and turn the tide) and the iron cage well.. Dorn wasn't in his right mind, he'd been driven near nuts with greif.

Dorn didn't "win" the siege of Terra. He managed to hold of chaos long enough for Guilliman and the Lion to save his hide, true. But his vaunted defenses, his life's work was torn down around him and Perturabo showed exactly who the real master of siege warfare really was. That was a very real "loss" for Dorn and contributed directly to unbalancing him for the rest of the Heresy. One of the Primarchs once asked Dorn if he could build defenses that Perturabo couldn't crack, while Perturabo was standing right in front of them both. Dorn unhesitatingly answered "yes", and Perturabo stormed out of the room in a huff because he knew it was bullgak, Dorn called him a child at the time. But we eventually see Perturabo was right, and Dorn was an arrogant man who let the glory of the position that was bestowed on him by the emperor go to his head and overly inflate his sense of self importance.

Read Angel Exterminatus, you get a really good view of what drove Perturabo to chaos from his POV.

 Nurglitch wrote:
Perturabo decimating his own legion because they couldn't keep up with Primarch-lead legions was pretty pure spite.

Again, numbers. He probably did an analysis in his head that gave him an exact efficiency percentage increase in fighting ability that would result from a decimation and reasoned that it was the fastest way to get his legion up to par, and that the brutality of it was irrelevant. All that mattered were results.

But that bit of lore was written by John French... see the last line.

 Haighus wrote:
Yet Perturabo was outmanoeuvred by non-Primarchs in several major battles- he would have lost the Battle of Phall to Alexis Pollux if Chaos itself had not intervened...

That bit of lore was also written by John French... see the last line.

 Nurglitch wrote:
I think that's what I dislike about the new HH fluff is that the Traitor Primarchs, and their traitor sons, don't really have any heroic qualities. The World Eaters, for example, were supposed to be paragons of martial excellence, and the retcon is that they were all turned into Berzerkers and Angron was lobotomized.

Agreed. What makes the Primarchs' falls so tragic was the fact that they were all GOOD men before the heresy. Flawed? Yes, absolutely, but still good men. Having them be cackling villains with no redeeming qualities from the start takes away from the emotional impact and makes the lore seem so one dimensional.

John French is especially guilty of using Perturbo like an incompetent cartoon bad guy in his stories. I hate it because it is totally inconsistent with other authors' portrayals of Perturabo, especially McNeill's.

w1zard wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
umm your claims of Perty's superiority vs Dorn is pretty flawed. the Siege of Terra was won by Dorn, whom held off until help arrived (in a siege situation being relvied is a win, the idea of a siege defence is to hold off until your enemy runs out of time, useally by being reinforced. Dorn knew Gulliman and the Lion where both en route, his entire plan likely was to hold off until Gulliman could arrive and turn the tide) and the iron cage well.. Dorn wasn't in his right mind, he'd been driven near nuts with greif.

Dorn didn't "win" the siege of Terra. He managed to hold of chaos long enough for Guilliman and the Lion to save his hide, true. But his vaunted defenses, his life's work was torn down around him and Perturabo showed exactly who the real master of siege warfare really was. That was a very real "loss" for Dorn and contributed directly to unbalancing him for the rest of the Heresy. One of the Primarchs once asked Dorn if he could build defenses that Perturabo couldn't crack, while Perturabo was standing right in front of them both. Dorn unhesitatingly answered "yes", and Perturabo stormed out of the room in a huff because he knew it was bullgak, Dorn called him a child at the time. But we eventually see Perturabo was right, and Dorn was an arrogant man who let the glory of the position that was bestowed on him by the emperor go to his head and overly inflate his sense of self importance.

Read Angel Exterminatus, you get a really good view of what drove Perturabo to chaos from his POV.

.

I HAVE read Angel Exterminatis, and Pertabuo is a nuanced char in it, I love it (Iron warriors are a favorite legion of mine) but your statement implies you're not familer with what a siege and fortifications really is. nobody realisticly expects a fortress to be completely impenetrable. you defensivly win a seige by three ways, the first simply holding out so long your beseigers turn out to be incompetant morons who didn't pack sufficant supplies and have to retreat because they ran out of supplies (this is pretty rare because the beseiger isn't trapped inside a castle and thus has an easier time getting new supplies) the second is your beseiger is an impatient idiot who throws himself agaisnt your defences, loses too many troops, (conventional wisdom holds you need 3 to 1, or more for a direct assault against a fortified position to work) and then has to break off the attack. The third is that your defences hold out long eneugh for reinforcements to arrive the drive off the beseiger. which is what happened on Terra. Claiming Pertuabeo beat Dorn on Terra is like claiming Suraman won the battle of Helm's deep. Pertuabeo was beseiging Dorn's fortifications under a time limit, he failed to finish the siege within his time window

Gulliman's arrival wasn't something unexpected. Everyone on both sides KNEW Gulliman was going to be racing to Terra

BrianDavion wrote:

w1zard wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
umm your claims of Perty's superiority vs Dorn is pretty flawed. the Siege of Terra was won by Dorn, whom held off until help arrived (in a siege situation being relvied is a win, the idea of a siege defence is to hold off until your enemy runs out of time, useally by being reinforced. Dorn knew Gulliman and the Lion where both en route, his entire plan likely was to hold off until Gulliman could arrive and turn the tide) and the iron cage well.. Dorn wasn't in his right mind, he'd been driven near nuts with greif.

Dorn didn't "win" the siege of Terra. He managed to hold of chaos long enough for Guilliman and the Lion to save his hide, true. But his vaunted defenses, his life's work was torn down around him and Perturabo showed exactly who the real master of siege warfare really was. That was a very real "loss" for Dorn and contributed directly to unbalancing him for the rest of the Heresy. One of the Primarchs once asked Dorn if he could build defenses that Perturabo couldn't crack, while Perturabo was standing right in front of them both. Dorn unhesitatingly answered "yes", and Perturabo stormed out of the room in a huff because he knew it was bullgak, Dorn called him a child at the time. But we eventually see Perturabo was right, and Dorn was an arrogant man who let the glory of the position that was bestowed on him by the emperor go to his head and overly inflate his sense of self importance.

Read Angel Exterminatus, you get a really good view of what drove Perturabo to chaos from his POV.

.

I HAVE read Angel Exterminatis, and Pertabuo is a nuanced char in it, I love it (Iron warriors are a favorite legion of mine) but your statement implies you're not familer with what a siege and fortifications really is. nobody realisticly expects a fortress to be completely impenetrable. you defensivly win a seige by three ways, the first simply holding out so long your beseigers turn out to be incompetant morons who didn't pack sufficant supplies and have to retreat because they ran out of supplies (this is pretty rare because the beseiger isn't trapped inside a castle and thus has an easier time getting new supplies) the second is your beseiger is an impatient idiot who throws himself agaisnt your defences, loses too many troops, (conventional wisdom holds you need 3 to 1, or more for a direct assault against a fortified position to work) and then has to break off the attack. The third is that your defences hold out long eneugh for reinforcements to arrive the drive off the beseiger. which is what happened on Terra. Claiming Pertuabeo beat Dorn on Terra is like claiming Suraman won the battle of Helm's deep. Pertuabeo was beseiging Dorn's fortifications under a time limit, he failed to finish the siege within his time window

Gulliman's arrival wasn't something unexpected. Everyone on both sides KNEW Gulliman was going to be racing to Terra

To add to this- it is hardly like the Siege of Terra was simply Perturabo vs Dorn- there were multiple other Primarchs involved, including Horus himself- also noted as a master of breaking sieges. We even have a line in one of the early books where Horus jokes a battle would last for ever if it was Horus attacking a fortress held by Dorn.

 Haighus wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

w1zard wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
umm your claims of Perty's superiority vs Dorn is pretty flawed. the Siege of Terra was won by Dorn, whom held off until help arrived (in a siege situation being relvied is a win, the idea of a siege defence is to hold off until your enemy runs out of time, useally by being reinforced. Dorn knew Gulliman and the Lion where both en route, his entire plan likely was to hold off until Gulliman could arrive and turn the tide) and the iron cage well.. Dorn wasn't in his right mind, he'd been driven near nuts with greif.

Dorn didn't "win" the siege of Terra. He managed to hold of chaos long enough for Guilliman and the Lion to save his hide, true. But his vaunted defenses, his life's work was torn down around him and Perturabo showed exactly who the real master of siege warfare really was. That was a very real "loss" for Dorn and contributed directly to unbalancing him for the rest of the Heresy. One of the Primarchs once asked Dorn if he could build defenses that Perturabo couldn't crack, while Perturabo was standing right in front of them both. Dorn unhesitatingly answered "yes", and Perturabo stormed out of the room in a huff because he knew it was bullgak, Dorn called him a child at the time. But we eventually see Perturabo was right, and Dorn was an arrogant man who let the glory of the position that was bestowed on him by the emperor go to his head and overly inflate his sense of self importance.

Read Angel Exterminatus, you get a really good view of what drove Perturabo to chaos from his POV.

.

I HAVE read Angel Exterminatis, and Pertabuo is a nuanced char in it, I love it (Iron warriors are a favorite legion of mine) but your statement implies you're not familer with what a siege and fortifications really is. nobody realisticly expects a fortress to be completely impenetrable. you defensivly win a seige by three ways, the first simply holding out so long your beseigers turn out to be incompetant morons who didn't pack sufficant supplies and have to retreat because they ran out of supplies (this is pretty rare because the beseiger isn't trapped inside a castle and thus has an easier time getting new supplies) the second is your beseiger is an impatient idiot who throws himself agaisnt your defences, loses too many troops, (conventional wisdom holds you need 3 to 1, or more for a direct assault against a fortified position to work) and then has to break off the attack. The third is that your defences hold out long eneugh for reinforcements to arrive the drive off the beseiger. which is what happened on Terra. Claiming Pertuabeo beat Dorn on Terra is like claiming Suraman won the battle of Helm's deep. Pertuabeo was beseiging Dorn's fortifications under a time limit, he failed to finish the siege within his time window

Gulliman's arrival wasn't something unexpected. Everyone on both sides KNEW Gulliman was going to be racing to Terra

To add to this- it is hardly like the Siege of Terra was simply Perturabo vs Dorn- there were multiple other Primarchs involved, including Horus himself- also noted as a master of breaking sieges. We even have a line in one of the early books where Horus jokes a battle would last for ever if it was Horus attacking a fortress held by Dorn.

which was intended as foreshadowing. Pertuabo likely wasn't the one directing that siege. for all we know the books are gonna have a time or two when Horus overrides Perty, and Perty's entire post heresy experiance has consisted of him sitting in his castle as a deamon prince thinking "Horus you bloody idiot, we'd have won if you listened to me" (in fact, I'm head canoning that as it's SOOOOO in character for him)

BrianDavion wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

w1zard wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
umm your claims of Perty's superiority vs Dorn is pretty flawed. the Siege of Terra was won by Dorn, whom held off until help arrived (in a siege situation being relvied is a win, the idea of a siege defence is to hold off until your enemy runs out of time, useally by being reinforced. Dorn knew Gulliman and the Lion where both en route, his entire plan likely was to hold off until Gulliman could arrive and turn the tide) and the iron cage well.. Dorn wasn't in his right mind, he'd been driven near nuts with greif.

Dorn didn't "win" the siege of Terra. He managed to hold of chaos long enough for Guilliman and the Lion to save his hide, true. But his vaunted defenses, his life's work was torn down around him and Perturabo showed exactly who the real master of siege warfare really was. That was a very real "loss" for Dorn and contributed directly to unbalancing him for the rest of the Heresy. One of the Primarchs once asked Dorn if he could build defenses that Perturabo couldn't crack, while Perturabo was standing right in front of them both. Dorn unhesitatingly answered "yes", and Perturabo stormed out of the room in a huff because he knew it was bullgak, Dorn called him a child at the time. But we eventually see Perturabo was right, and Dorn was an arrogant man who let the glory of the position that was bestowed on him by the emperor go to his head and overly inflate his sense of self importance.

Read Angel Exterminatus, you get a really good view of what drove Perturabo to chaos from his POV.

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I HAVE read Angel Exterminatis, and Pertabuo is a nuanced char in it, I love it (Iron warriors are a favorite legion of mine) but your statement implies you're not familer with what a siege and fortifications really is. nobody realisticly expects a fortress to be completely impenetrable. you defensivly win a seige by three ways, the first simply holding out so long your beseigers turn out to be incompetant morons who didn't pack sufficant supplies and have to retreat because they ran out of supplies (this is pretty rare because the beseiger isn't trapped inside a castle and thus has an easier time getting new supplies) the second is your beseiger is an impatient idiot who throws himself agaisnt your defences, loses too many troops, (conventional wisdom holds you need 3 to 1, or more for a direct assault against a fortified position to work) and then has to break off the attack. The third is that your defences hold out long eneugh for reinforcements to arrive the drive off the beseiger. which is what happened on Terra. Claiming Pertuabeo beat Dorn on Terra is like claiming Suraman won the battle of Helm's deep. Pertuabeo was beseiging Dorn's fortifications under a time limit, he failed to finish the siege within his time window

Gulliman's arrival wasn't something unexpected. Everyone on both sides KNEW Gulliman was going to be racing to Terra

To add to this- it is hardly like the Siege of Terra was simply Perturabo vs Dorn- there were multiple other Primarchs involved, including Horus himself- also noted as a master of breaking sieges. We even have a line in one of the early books where Horus jokes a battle would last for ever if it was Horus attacking a fortress held by Dorn.

which was intended as foreshadowing. Pertuabo likely wasn't the one directing that siege. for all we know the books are gonna have a time or two when Horus overrides Perty, and Perty's entire post heresy experiance has consisted of him sitting in his castle as a deamon prince thinking "Horus you bloody idiot, we'd have won if you listened to me" (in fact, I'm head canoning that as it's SOOOOO in character for him)

So first it's Perty boy beats Dorn at Terra by breaking down the defenses so points for him, but not you are moving the goal post and saying he wasn't likely even the one directing the siege. Maybe Horus deserves the credit instead? :p

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

w1zard wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
umm your claims of Perty's superiority vs Dorn is pretty flawed. the Siege of Terra was won by Dorn, whom held off until help arrived (in a siege situation being relvied is a win, the idea of a siege defence is to hold off until your enemy runs out of time, useally by being reinforced. Dorn knew Gulliman and the Lion where both en route, his entire plan likely was to hold off until Gulliman could arrive and turn the tide) and the iron cage well.. Dorn wasn't in his right mind, he'd been driven near nuts with greif.

Dorn didn't "win" the siege of Terra. He managed to hold of chaos long enough for Guilliman and the Lion to save his hide, true. But his vaunted defenses, his life's work was torn down around him and Perturabo showed exactly who the real master of siege warfare really was. That was a very real "loss" for Dorn and contributed directly to unbalancing him for the rest of the Heresy. One of the Primarchs once asked Dorn if he could build defenses that Perturabo couldn't crack, while Perturabo was standing right in front of them both. Dorn unhesitatingly answered "yes", and Perturabo stormed out of the room in a huff because he knew it was bullgak, Dorn called him a child at the time. But we eventually see Perturabo was right, and Dorn was an arrogant man who let the glory of the position that was bestowed on him by the emperor go to his head and overly inflate his sense of self importance.

Read Angel Exterminatus, you get a really good view of what drove Perturabo to chaos from his POV.

.

I HAVE read Angel Exterminatis, and Pertabuo is a nuanced char in it, I love it (Iron warriors are a favorite legion of mine) but your statement implies you're not familer with what a siege and fortifications really is. nobody realisticly expects a fortress to be completely impenetrable. you defensivly win a seige by three ways, the first simply holding out so long your beseigers turn out to be incompetant morons who didn't pack sufficant supplies and have to retreat because they ran out of supplies (this is pretty rare because the beseiger isn't trapped inside a castle and thus has an easier time getting new supplies) the second is your beseiger is an impatient idiot who throws himself agaisnt your defences, loses too many troops, (conventional wisdom holds you need 3 to 1, or more for a direct assault against a fortified position to work) and then has to break off the attack. The third is that your defences hold out long eneugh for reinforcements to arrive the drive off the beseiger. which is what happened on Terra. Claiming Pertuabeo beat Dorn on Terra is like claiming Suraman won the battle of Helm's deep. Pertuabeo was beseiging Dorn's fortifications under a time limit, he failed to finish the siege within his time window

Gulliman's arrival wasn't something unexpected. Everyone on both sides KNEW Gulliman was going to be racing to Terra

To add to this- it is hardly like the Siege of Terra was simply Perturabo vs Dorn- there were multiple other Primarchs involved, including Horus himself- also noted as a master of breaking sieges. We even have a line in one of the early books where Horus jokes a battle would last for ever if it was Horus attacking a fortress held by Dorn.

which was intended as foreshadowing. Pertuabo likely wasn't the one directing that siege. for all we know the books are gonna have a time or two when Horus overrides Perty, and Perty's entire post heresy experiance has consisted of him sitting in his castle as a deamon prince thinking "Horus you bloody idiot, we'd have won if you listened to me" (in fact, I'm head canoning that as it's SOOOOO in character for him)

So first it's Perty boy beats Dorn at Terra by breaking down the defenses so points for him, but not you are moving the goal post and saying he wasn't likely even the one directing the siege. Maybe Horus deserves the credit instead? :p

It's not moving the goal posts if I'm not arguing Perty beats Dorn. I'm argueing that the Traitors lost the siege and Perty may not have even been directing that siege anyway

BrianDavion wrote:
It's not moving the goal posts if I'm not arguing Perty beats Dorn. I'm argueing that the Traitors lost the siege and Perty may not have even been directing that siege anyway

Except that we have lore that directly states that the Iron Warriors (and by extension Perturabo, who was present at the siege and would obviously be commanding his legion) tore down the walls of the Imperial Palace with glee. Horus was probably in overall command of the siege but Perturabo was most certainly given the task of reducing the fortifications.

Dorn had made previous boasts about how no army in the entire galaxy could breach Terra's defenses because he designed them himself. He also stated that he could construct defenses that Perturabo would not be able to beat. He was wrong on both counts.

w1zard wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
It's not moving the goal posts if I'm not arguing Perty beats Dorn. I'm argueing that the Traitors lost the siege and Perty may not have even been directing that siege anyway

Except that we have lore that directly states that the Iron Warriors (and by extension Perturabo, who was present at the siege and would obviously be commanding his legion) tore down the walls of the Imperial Palace with glee. Horus was probably in overall command of the siege but Perturabo was most certainly given the task of reducing the fortifications.

Dorn had made previous boasts about how no army in the entire galaxy could breach Terra's defenses because he designed them himself. He also stated that he could construct defenses that Perturabo would not be able to beat. He was wrong on both counts.

and Pertuabo was unable to beat them.

Seriously, I'm thinking you might not understand how a properly constructed fortress works. properly constructed a good fortress will have several layers of defences. you'll not be able to stop any and all breaches from being made (eventually someone will build a big eneugh canon) what you can do is build your walls in such a way that you are able to defend those breaches and then fall back to second, third, forth etc lines of defences. The Traitors did break through some of the walls (the Iron warriors may have been key but we know the palace gates where opened by the Imperator Titan Dies Ires)

the traitors likely penatrated through several layers of defences but apparently couldn't seem to finish the job. hence a failure.

Terra's defenses WERE breached. I remember reading that the walls of the Emperor's palace was breached, and the CSM charged in. There was fighting within the palace on all fronts. It was actually more or less game over for the emperor. But at the last moment, Horus moved his flagship closer and lowered his shields so that he could "see better" the emperor's last moments. And when the emperor sensed that, he immediately teleported directly onboard Horus's flagship with Dorn, Sanguinius and a small group of whatever retinue he had left. And well, we know what happened after that.

So, the Emperor's palace was breached. That is beyond doubt.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Terra's defenses WERE breached. I remember reading that the walls of the Emperor's palace was breached, and the CSM charged in. There was fighting within the palace on all fronts. It was actually more or less game over for the emperor. But at the last moment, Horus moved his flagship closer and lowered his shields so that he could "see better" the emperor's last moments. And when the emperor sensed that, he immediately teleported directly onboard Horus's flagship with Dorn, Sanguinius and a small group of whatever retinue he had left. And well, we know what happened after that.

So, the Emperor's palace was breached. That is beyond doubt.

That's not really true. The Loyalists were pushed to their last line of defence but the Traitors were starting to just wander off from the Palace siege so game over is an exaggeration. Horus lowered his shields because he needed to kill the Emperor in a duel to win the siege before the rest of the Loyalists arrived.

It was a risky play by both sides. The actual forces the Emperor had within the last line of defense was outnumbered by the CSM forces being brought to bear by Horus. But Horus received news that multiple loyalist legions were inbound.

Horus did not want to risk dragging out the final assault. There was a possibility that loyalist reinforcements might arrive in time. (key word being might). So he decided to gamble and risk it all by lowering his shields.

The emperor similarly, wasn't sure if reinforcement were going to arrive in time before they were all killed. So, he took up Horus's gambit and teleported onboard the Vengeful Spirit.

It doesn't change the fact that the defenses of Terra HAD been breached. Fighting had spread across the rest of his palace. Saying the palace wasn't breached is like saying that Helm's deep in LOTR wasn't breached. It was. It was only the flank charge by the arriving calvary that saved them.

And even the whole thing about loyalist legions inbound was a retcon. Before the retcon, the way the horus heresy was presented, the emperor and his last defenders were basically on their last stand, and there was literally no hope. But Horus inexplicably decided at the last moment to lower the shields on the Vengeful Spirit so that he could get a better look and see the final moments of the emperor, and that was when the emperor seized on the moment and teleported aboard.

it really depends on what version of the story you've heard, I've heard some when Horus knew Gulliman's arrival was imminant and that he was out of time, the siege of terra novels will, obviously, clarify the matter considerably. it could be that yeah the victory was in grasp and Horus basicly threw it away, it could even be that he dropped his sheilds and tempted the emperor in because he'd received reports of the Ultramarines vanguard already arriving in system, or something in between. we won't know until the books come out.

It is true to say that the Traitor forces breached the Palace, but less tru to say they breached the fortress- whilst a line of defense still holds, a fortress has not fallen, and any competently designed fortress has multiple layers of defense. It is almost expected that the outer walls will fall to a determined, superior foe, which is why defenses are built in such a way as to have inner layers that can target the outer layers. Trace Italienne star forts are a perfect example- they are designed in such a way that the outerworks are exposed to cannon fire from the inner bastions.

If we look at an actual siege- that of Château Gaillard- the attacking French army eventually seized all but the inner sanctum over months of brutal fighting. However, the Anglo-Norman castellan of the castle only surrendered once it became clear that John I was not sending a relief army. If such an army was on the way (as Guilliman was in the Siege of Terra) then the castle would've continued to resist to the last man, and quite possibly would have succeeded. Ergo, a castle is not truly breached until the innermost keep has fallen.

BrianDavion wrote:
it really depends on what version of the story you've heard, I've heard some when Horus knew Gulliman's arrival was imminant and that he was out of time, the siege of terra novels will, obviously, clarify the matter considerably. it could be that yeah the victory was in grasp and Horus basicly threw it away, it could even be that he dropped his sheilds and tempted the emperor in because he'd received reports of the Ultramarines vanguard already arriving in system, or something in between. we won't know until the books come out.

Aye, we will know soon(ish). Just 6 books to go or something.

BrianDavion wrote:

w1zard wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
It's not moving the goal posts if I'm not arguing Perty beats Dorn. I'm argueing that the Traitors lost the siege and Perty may not have even been directing that siege anyway

Except that we have lore that directly states that the Iron Warriors (and by extension Perturabo, who was present at the siege and would obviously be commanding his legion) tore down the walls of the Imperial Palace with glee. Horus was probably in overall command of the siege but Perturabo was most certainly given the task of reducing the fortifications.

Dorn had made previous boasts about how no army in the entire galaxy could breach Terra's defenses because he designed them himself. He also stated that he could construct defenses that Perturabo would not be able to beat. He was wrong on both counts.

and Pertuabo was unable to beat them.

Seriously, I'm thinking you might not understand how a properly constructed fortress works. properly constructed a good fortress will have several layers of defences. you'll not be able to stop any and all breaches from being made (eventually someone will build a big eneugh canon) what you can do is build your walls in such a way that you are able to defend those breaches and then fall back to second, third, forth etc lines of defences. The Traitors did break through some of the walls (the Iron warriors may have been key but we know the palace gates where opened by the Imperator Titan Dies Ires)

the traitors likely penatrated through several layers of defences but apparently couldn't seem to finish the job. hence a failure.

In all fairness, the battle came down to the incoming reinforcements. Terra was falling, everyone knew it, and the palace was breached and in the process of being overrun, though admittedly first by the World Eaters.

It was the incoming loyalist reinforcements that made the difference, forcing Horus to make his gamble and the Emperor took him up on it, setting the stage for the rest of the setting when they both failed in their goals.

I don't think anything definitive can be drawn from the siege of terra really, there's a lot of weirdness (e.g. webway battles, EC basically abandoning the fight to party, etc), and nobody really "wins", rather they all lose

Obligatory TTS clip on the topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBt1vqff7dE