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Building up a new blood angels army. Built and painted 2 squads of intercessors and a squad of hellblasters and a squad of inceptors with assault bolters. I want up front a choppy squad of death company with probably a index version of a sanguinary priest with jump pack but who else to lead the squad? Astorath,lemartes or a plain Chaplin.?
I'm paying a extra 57 points for lemartes over a standard Chaplin to gain 1 extra attack and re-roll failed charges? Yet the bonuses on the Chaplin apply to blood angels units and lemartes death company only.
Or there is the astorath route?

Suggestions would be appreciated

Rerolling charges is a big deal. I run Lemartes every time and never regret it. Don't forget that he came to just 100 points in the 2018 Chapter approved. At that price, it would practically be rude to leave him behind.

I’d go with Astorath, cheap and can buff other units.

Also for my death company. Leave most with chainsword amd bolt pistol with a couple power weapons thrown in?

 Karhedron wrote:
Rerolling charges is a big deal. I run Lemartes every time and never regret it. Don't forget that he came to just 100 points in the 2018 Chapter approved. At that price, it would practically be rude to leave him behind.

Yep. Rerolls to charges can be so vital. Even with 3d6 charge you have 1/4 chance of failing that. Do you want your expensive death company deep strike, fail the charge and quite likely die next? Death company is very soft target so if they are sitting in open they are dead meat.

Don't use DC. Then you don't have to worry about it.

But fluff wise I love death company lol. I deffo need to include at least either 1 unit of death company or sanguinary guard

The best way I've found is Lemartes with DC especially if DS'ing or using UWOF, Astorath with SG for his +1 to hit buff. If you intend to forlorn fury don't bother with character as they tend to be fire and forget when used like this.

munnster wrote:
But fluff wise I love death company lol. I deffo need to include at least either 1 unit of death company or sanguinary guard

But the crunch doesn't line up. Skip them. There is no best way to use paper thin models that cost 20+ ppm. Only bad ways.

But if I skip using units like death company there was no point going blood angels in the first place and may as well have gone for some other vanilla chapter with a gun line play style. Seeing as though i have gone blood angels now and painted so many units already I got to include some of the iconic blood angels units like death company or sanguinary guard. I wanted a mix of close combat as well as ranged and that's why I went blood angels and death company are some of their best melee options so got to include

Well if you listen Martel you'll skip blood angels all together and play eldar

munnster wrote:
But if I skip using units like death company there was no point going blood angels in the first place and may as well have gone for some other vanilla chapter with a gun line play style. Seeing as though i have gone blood angels now and painted so many units already I got to include some of the iconic blood angels units like death company or sanguinary guard. I wanted a mix of close combat as well as ranged and that's why I went blood angels and death company are some of their best melee options so got to include

Do you? Are they actually good? Iconic doesnt mean a thing in 8th.

I think sg are okay, but dc are unplayably awful. Lemartes is trash because he only buffs trash. 20 pts with no gear is insane.

And yes, ba are arguably the worst faction in the game atm.

So if I'm not taking death company but still want some choppy units what do you suggest. I went BA for some close combat potential in the first place plus that's the very first army I ever done back in 2nd edition. Sanguinary guard?

VV are better than dc now in most circumstances. They dont need a babysitter and are cheaper even including a storm shield. SG need the warlord buff plus fnp banner. Massive investment unless the ancient is your warlord.

VV would be a good choice. Like you said they dont need babysitting, are cheaper than DC and i can equip some with SS and TH for staying power and the rest with lightning claws. Throw in a chaplain with no overwatch relic. Charge the chaplain first then the squad. Your opponent cannot overwatch you

Don't bother with the chaplain. Just kill a model with suppressors.

munnster wrote:
So if I'm not taking death company but still want some choppy units what do you suggest. I went BA for some close combat potential in the first place plus that's the very first army I ever done back in 2nd edition. Sanguinary guard?

Don't worry about the negativity from certain posters. I have been running DC+ Lemartes ever since the codex dropped and they are great.

What you have to remember is that they are a glass cannon unit. They can dish out a lot of hurt but cannot take much in return and this dictates how best to use them. One option is to drop them on a flank and then roll it up. This minimises the amount of return fire they will take. The other option (and the one I normally go for) is to go for the heart of the enemy army and try to tear it out. This will normally spell their death but I normally find that the damage and distraction caused is decisive. Then it is just up to the rest of the army to exploit the hole the DC have made.

Since the Beta rules on deploying Reserves from Turn 2 onwards, I find a lot of players use less screening than they used to which helps the DC attack their targets of choice. You can deploy them from Reserves on T2 but we also have the option of using Forlorn Fury or UWOF to get them into position if the opportunity presents itself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want an alternative, then I have recently started running a fully kitted out 10-man Sanguinary Guard squad support by the Sanguinor, Jump Pack Librarian, Ancient with Standard of Sacrifice and Sanguinary Priest (Index option for Jump Pack).

This lot is expensive but is a lot more durable than Death Company and hits like an absolute freight train. In a recent battle against Death Guard, I managed to charge centre of the enemy lines on Turn 2. They chopped they way through Death Guard, Support characters and 5 Daemon engines.

Granted only 2 of the 10 survived to the end of the battle but the level of damage a fully-tooled SG squad can dish out is phenomenal. Survivability is kind of the DG's "thing" so tearing through their best units is a pretty goof testament to their ability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The 3 classic assault units in the BA army all work well but fulfill slightly different roles.

Vanguard Veterans: Cheapest option. Access to 2-point Storm Shields make them great for tackling high-damage units like big monsters. They can function pretty well without support (although support does always help).

Death Company: Cheapest in terms of points per attack (at least on the charge) make them the most offensive option. Access to useful strats like Forlorn Fury gives them addditional deployment options. Really need character support (Lemartes gets my vote).

Sanguinary Guard: Most expensive but also most durable. They are basically flying Terminators. In order to work effectively, they really need significant character support. In the following order they need to:
1. Be near the Warlord
2. Sanguinor
3. Sanguinary Ancient with Standard of Sacrifice
4. Librarian with Jump Pack and Unleash Rage
5. Sanguinary Priest for +1S bubble and healing.

Sanguinary Guard really work best at points levels of 1750 and above. In smaller games I find it hard to fit in sufficient support characters without gimping the rest of the army.

One trick I have found useful is nominating one of the Sanguinary Guard as my Warlord. Although you lose out on a Warlord Trait, it is worth it for guaranteeing that the squad has full rerolls for the entire battle.

 Karhedron wrote:
This minimises the amount of return fire they will take. .

Tripointing also helps for that. If you are in combat enemy cannot fall back from you are obviously safe from enemy fire.

Martel732 wrote:

munnster wrote:
But if I skip using units like death company there was no point going blood angels in the first place and may as well have gone for some other vanilla chapter with a gun line play style. Seeing as though i have gone blood angels now and painted so many units already I got to include some of the iconic blood angels units like death company or sanguinary guard. I wanted a mix of close combat as well as ranged and that's why I went blood angels and death company are some of their best melee options so got to include

Do you? Are they actually good? Iconic doesnt mean a thing in 8th.

I think sg are okay, but dc are unplayably awful. Lemartes is trash because he only buffs trash. 20 pts with no gear is insane.

And yes, ba are arguably the worst faction in the game atm.

BA aren't great, but I thought the common consensus was that GK was the worst (obviously were excluding sub factions like SoS and Assassins).

Thanks


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Karhedron wrote:

munnster wrote:
So if I'm not taking death company but still want some choppy units what do you suggest. I went BA for some close combat potential in the first place plus that's the very first army I ever done back in 2nd edition. Sanguinary guard?

Don't worry about the negativity from certain posters. I have been running DC+ Lemartes ever since the codex dropped and they are great.

What you have to remember is that they are a glass cannon unit. They can dish out a lot of hurt but cannot take much in return and this dictates how best to use them. One option is to drop them on a flank and then roll it up. This minimises the amount of return fire they will take. The other option (and the one I normally go for) is to go for the heart of the enemy army and try to tear it out. This will normally spell their death but I normally find that the damage and distraction caused is decisive. Then it is just up to the rest of the army to exploit the hole the DC have made.

Since the Beta rules on deploying Reserves from Turn 2 onwards, I find a lot of players use less screening than they used to which helps the DC attack their targets of choice. You can deploy them from Reserves on T2 but we also have the option of using Forlorn Fury or UWOF to get them into position if the opportunity presents itself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want an alternative, then I have recently started running a fully kitted out 10-man Sanguinary Guard squad support by the Sanguinor, Jump Pack Librarian, Ancient with Standard of Sacrifice and Sanguinary Priest (Index option for Jump Pack).

This lot is expensive but is a lot more durable than Death Company and hits like an absolute freight train. In a recent battle against Death Guard, I managed to charge centre of the enemy lines on Turn 2. They chopped they way through Death Guard, Support characters and 5 Daemon engines.

Granted only 2 of the 10 survived to the end of the battle but the level of damage a fully-tooled SG squad can dish out is phenomenal. Survivability is kind of the DG's "thing" so tearing through their best units is a pretty goof testament to their ability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The 3 classic assault units in the BA army all work well but fulfill slightly different roles.

Vanguard Veterans: Cheapest option. Access to 2-point Storm Shields make them great for tackling high-damage units like big monsters. They can function pretty well without support (although support does always help).

Death Company: Cheapest in terms of points per attack (at least on the charge) make them the most offensive option. Access to useful strats like Forlorn Fury gives them addditional deployment options. Really need character support (Lemartes gets my vote).

Sanguinary Guard: Most expensive but also most durable. They are basically flying Terminators. In order to work effectively, they really need significant character support. In the following order they need to:
1. Be near the Warlord
2. Sanguinor
3. Sanguinary Ancient with Standard of Sacrifice
4. Librarian with Jump Pack and Unleash Rage
5. Sanguinary Priest for +1S bubble and healing.

Sanguinary Guard really work best at points levels of 1750 and above. In smaller games I find it hard to fit in sufficient support characters without gimping the rest of the army.

One trick I have found useful is nominating one of the Sanguinary Guard as my Warlord. Although you lose out on a Warlord Trait, it is worth it for guaranteeing that the squad has full rerolls for the entire battle.

Thanks for the really helpful advice. I know blood angels are not top tier lol but I'm not playing them to win the LVO, I'm playing them to have fun, I love their models and colour scheme, like their law and want to win some of my games without getting kerb stomped every time hence the advice. Everyone keeps going on about how bad they are but your advice was really helpful thanks. At the end of the day rolling dice is a game of luck as well as strategy

They are not great. But I'm playing vs really tough lists. My negativity around DC and Lemartes is well-earned. Marines can't afford to field glass cannons unless they are cheap. DC aren't cheap. They reduce your margin for error in a list that already has almost no margin for error. Marines simply can't invest in 20+ ppm models guaranteed to die. They can't do enough damage in a single charge 80% of the time. And they never live. Not a good combo. Listen to the rose-colored analysis at your own risk.

Also, Lemartes is a trap, because it makes them do even LESS work to kill your DC. With Astorath at least, they actually have to kill each and every one of them with actual effort. And he can do something for you after the DC die. Which they will.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

munnster wrote:
But if I skip using units like death company there was no point going blood angels in the first place and may as well have gone for some other vanilla chapter with a gun line play style. Seeing as though i have gone blood angels now and painted so many units already I got to include some of the iconic blood angels units like death company or sanguinary guard. I wanted a mix of close combat as well as ranged and that's why I went blood angels and death company are some of their best melee options so got to include

Do you? Are they actually good? Iconic doesnt mean a thing in 8th.

I think sg are okay, but dc are unplayably awful. Lemartes is trash because he only buffs trash. 20 pts with no gear is insane.

And yes, ba are arguably the worst faction in the game atm.

BA aren't great, but I thought the common consensus was that GK was the worst (obviously were excluding sub factions like SoS and Assassins).

I have a friend with some GK lists that make me think BA might be worse after beta bolter rule. GK gets a lot more out of it.

" The other option (and the one I normally go for) is to go for the heart of the enemy army and try to tear it out."

This will not happen vs good opponents with good lists.

At the end of the day I can always run them as another chapter but painted up as blood angels worse case scenario and just shelf some of the units like DC or SG.

If you ARE going to use DC, you absolutely want suppressors in your list. 30 strong shoota boy blobs are a thing.

Yeah I got the shadowspear box set so can paint some up to prevent the overwatch

Plus -2 AP autocannons are just really really good in the current meta. Because -2 AP is the most you can reliably benefit from. 3+/5++ being a common scheme.