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So, if I have an army that uses Epidemius, and I'm stacking up his Tally of Pestilence. What happens when he dies?

1. The tally goes away and all models lose all their buffs
2. The tally can not go any higher, but all models keep their buffs from the tally that was reached before death
3. Nothing, the tally keeps going as more units are killed, regardless of Epidemius's death.

 Sentai_Sage wrote:
So, if I have an army that uses Epidemius, and I'm stacking up his Tally of Pestilence. What happens when he dies?

1. The tally goes away and all models lose all their buffs
2. The tally can not go any higher, but all models keep their buffs from the tally that was reached before death
3. Nothing, the tally keeps going as more units are killed, regardless of Epidemius's death.

First off, the tally definitely doesn't go higher. He's gone, so the rule that says that is gone too.

The rerolls are also gone, as it was the model that was giving the rerolls.

However, I believe the characteristics increases stay, as these are worded to actually alter the profiles of other units.

I would have to say that the entire Tally rule is gone and everything is gone. The rule doesn't say it continues to exist when Epidemius is slain. However, due to how the English Language is vague and GW's incompetence it can be argued either way.

This is a legitimate candidate for an FAQ question, not "Do I still lose if I concede?"

I know in all past editions that if he died, all the bonuses his tally is providing go with him. I’d have to check the wording on this edition though.

When a model is gone, its rules are also gone.

 p5freak wrote:
When a model is gone, its rules are also gone.

As I say above though, it looks to me like some of his abilities permanently alter the actual characteristics of other units. If that's the case, that would remain after he dies. Similar to say Fabius Bile.

 Stux wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
When a model is gone, its rules are also gone.

As I say above though, it looks to me like some of his abilities permanently alter the actual characteristics of other units. If that's the case, that would remain after he dies. Similar to say Fabius Bile.

I dont see anything like "for the remainder of the game" or "until the battle is over" in the tally rule. When epidemius is dead his buffs arent working anymore.

Another spanner in the works - what happens if he dies then gets summoned back? Does the count reset? Or, if the abilities persist, does a second count get set up?

(AFB, but will weigh in later)

Aelyn wrote:
Another spanner in the works - what happens if he dies then gets summoned back? Does the count reset? Or, if the abilities persist, does a second count get set up?

(AFB, but will weigh in later)

 p5freak wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
When a model is gone, its rules are also gone.

As I say above though, it looks to me like some of his abilities permanently alter the actual characteristics of other units. If that's the case, that would remain after he dies. Similar to say Fabius Bile.

I dont see anything like "for the remainder of the game" or "until the battle is over" in the tally rule. When epidemius is dead his buffs arent working anymore.

I don't see that as relevant.

The rule says "Increase the X characteristic of all friendly NURGLE DAEMONS by 1". That says to me you are altering the characteristic, and it is therefore a permanent change.

Why the facepalm ? Its a valid question. When he dies, and is summoned, the tally starts at 0. Its a new unit, its not the old one coming back from the dead. On top of that abilities with the same name arent cumulative, unless the ability says otherwise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stux wrote:


The rule says "Increase the X characteristic of all friendly NURGLE DAEMONS by 1". That says to me you are altering the characteristic, and it is therefore a permanent change.

No, its not. Permanent changes are explicitly stated. Like this :

Mind Wipe
If manifested, choose an enemy model within 18" of the psyker that is visible to him. Each player then rolls a D6 and adds their model's Leadership characteristic to their result. If your opponent scores higher, or if the scores are drawn, nothing happens. If your score is higher, the enemy model reduces its Leadership, Ballistic Skill and Weapon Skill characteristics by 1 for the rest of the battle.

Seems inconclusive to me. Conversely I would say that for it to be temporary it would need to state a condition to remove it. It would need to say 'Until Epidemius is destroyed" or something like that.

Honestly, I'm not aware of another example of a Characteristic change that doesn't either specificy a condition for removing it (timed, or based on distance to the source etc), or explicitly state it is permanent. This seems to be a weird niche case where they forgot to do one or the other and needs an FAQ.

That said, I don't think that clause is necessary for permanence, it just clarifies it. So the default should be that it is permanent.

 p5freak wrote:
Why the facepalm ? Its a valid question. When he dies, and is summoned, the tally starts at 0. Its a new unit, its not the old one coming back from the dead. On top of that abilities with the same name arent cumulative, unless the ability says otherwise.

I disagree, the tally of pestilence is clearly a singular tally. If it was at 5 when he died there is nothing saying to set it back to zero - the rule that sets it to zero occurs at the start of battle. When he is summoned back the tally continues from 5 because that is what the tally is at.

JakeSiren wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Why the facepalm ? Its a valid question. When he dies, and is summoned, the tally starts at 0. Its a new unit, its not the old one coming back from the dead. On top of that abilities with the same name arent cumulative, unless the ability says otherwise.

I disagree, the tally of pestilence is clearly a singular tally. If it was at 5 when he died there is nothing saying to set it back to zero - the rule that sets it to zero occurs at the start of battle. When he is summoned back the tally continues from 5 because that is what the tally is at.

If, by playing a stratagem you remove somebody from the board and setting him up elsewhere any persistent effects are removed, then I would daresay that there's an indication there of something more severe like having the model die then being summoned later would be coming back without any persistent effects - having a tally that isn't zero seems like something that wouldn't be coming back.

This has just been answered in the new FAQ. If Epidemius dies, his Tally goes away.

Aelyn wrote:
This has just been answered in the new FAQ. If Epidemius dies, his Tally goes away.

Agreed. While it doesn't explicitly answer whether the characteristic changes are permanent, the wording to me strongly implies the intention is that they are not.

Based on that, I withdraw my previous position.