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Not much in there to affect me (Ultramarines and Renegade Knights player).

I guess my Whirlwind no longer gets the beta bolters rule for it's storm bolter. I don't run any Dominus class knights and the 4++ max invuln puts me on a level playing field with Imperial Knights

They didn't fully revert fly in the charge phase though. A demon prince that flies into ruins in the movement phase can still be stuck there in the charge phase.

I like pretty much every change here. Would like to see that rumored change to CP's though. I also wanted to see natural 6's always hit.

 Eldarain wrote:
Easiest and most obvious way to get all Imperium players to buy into an army with ugly ancient plastics.

Yeah, GW is pushing you... to buy the army it's really the easiest to get very good looking, and/or inexpensive proxy off, and that is the least protectable IP from the whole universe because it's visual description is literally "any unaugmented man and woman with futuristic looking guns and even that futuristic part can be bended sometime"!
https://victoriaminiatures.com/

the_scotsman wrote:
S

-Knight Castellans are now 100pts more expensive

-Thousand Sons rubric units no longer have that problem where they go up like firecrackers when they suffer a single Perils of the Warp. That's nice.

-Obliterators, turns out, were supposed to be 115 points. Everyone who bought 20 of them with the idea that they'd be 65 now gets to make a surprised pikachu face.

Where are points changes listed? I looked at the knights erratta, but I didn't see anything about points.

And what do you mean about TS sons no longer going off like firecrackers? The text seems the same to me, and if the unit suffers mortals wounds it still gets applied to the unit.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
S

-Knight Castellans are now 100pts more expensive

-Thousand Sons rubric units no longer have that problem where they go up like firecrackers when they suffer a single Perils of the Warp. That's nice.

-Obliterators, turns out, were supposed to be 115 points. Everyone who bought 20 of them with the idea that they'd be 65 now gets to make a surprised pikachu face.

Where are points changes listed? I looked at the knights erratta, but I didn't see anything about points.

And what do you mean about TS sons no longer going off like firecrackers? The text seems the same to me, and if the unit suffers mortals wounds it still gets applied to the unit.

points change for Knights are in the release notes. https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/warhammer_40000_update_April_2019_en.pdf

points change for oblits (its not really a change, correcting a typo) is in the Chaos codex FAQ.

I do kind of find it funny how GW's tone comes across in regard to "competitive" tricks The wobbly model part and the exploding transport in the charge phase commentary gave me a vibe like they were put off a bit. Hopefully they start writing cleaner rules in the first place rather then assuming everyone else thinks like them.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

Where are points changes listed? I looked at the knights erratta, but I didn't see anything about points.

Last page of the FAQ - the volcano lance and plasma decimator together now cost 100 points more than they did previously...

Voss wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

Voss wrote:
For 'countless hours' of revision, I expected more than a few tweaks. Especially after all that hype in the article itself!

Perhaps a small comfort, but when it comes to these things too little is often preferable to too much. And the degree to change does not always reflect how much thought went into it.

Cute, but given the number of unaddressed, widely known outstanding issues, too little is not preferable at all.

You would rather the game be equally imbalanced, just in a different way? Cute.

Ummmmm they forgot to correct the Obliterators point... Its terrifying if they continue to allow 65pt Oblits.

Edit: Nevermind. I assumed it would be in the "new" magenta text-color.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Easiest and most obvious way to get all Imperium players to buy into an army with ugly ancient plastics.

Yeah, GW is pushing you... to buy the army it's really the easiest to get very good looking, and/or inexpensive proxy off, and that is the least protectable IP from the whole universe because it's visual description is literally "any unaugmented man and woman with futuristic looking guns and even that futuristic part can be bended sometime"!
https://victoriaminiatures.com/

No lie, this may be the single wildest incarnation of the Vast GW Balance Conspiracy I've heard, lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Ummmmm they forgot to correct the Obliterators point... Its terrifying if they continue to allow 65pt Oblits.

No, they just forgot to make it pink. Their point cost being 115pts is in there.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Ummmmm they forgot to correct the Obliterators point... Its terrifying if they continue to allow 65pt Oblits.

Edit: Nevermind. I assumed it would be in the "new" magenta text-color.

CSM FAQ show it as 115ppm (it's not in magenta for some reason)

-

I think they only use.magenta if there was previous updates, since Chaos codex it's brand new that's why they didn't use magenta yet.

So, in my mind, there are a few questions this poses:

the first is with the changes to Jinx and Doom, Does this potentially position Aeldari to not soup at all? Would the additional benefit of not souping for the advantage of AoV, be offset by the increased synergy of having all of your units able to take advantage of Doom and Jinx? Especially since RIS went up to a 4++ at max? Is AoV needed for the Craftworld Aeldari codex to stand up in a competitive environment? Likewise, is Doom and Jinx needed to help Drukhari stand up in the said environment? Because it feels like blaster spam and Dissie spam isn't going to do the job on its own, though of course you can get rid of RIS with AoV.

Conversely, with the increase in the cost of the Knight Castellan and a 16% increase in the morbidity of that model leads to AM just taking pure AM? Or AM plus BA SCD? Namely because one could field a truly dizzying array of firepower for 2k in a battalion and brigade detachment, and still have plenty of points left over to field everyone's favorite BA captain.

I'm excited about the changes, but a bit apprehensive. It feels like the changes, especially with Aeldari soup and Ork Lootahs have weakened the Castellan appropriately, but have also weakened the things that naturally prey on the Castellan, so I'm not sure many things change from the meta of AM Soup.

What do you think?

I'm truly beside myself.

Seabass wrote:
So, in my mind, there are a few questions this poses:

the first is with the changes to Jinx and Doom, Does this potentially position Aeldari to not soup at all? Would the additional benefit of not souping for the advantage of AoV, be offset by the increased synergy of having all of your units able to take advantage of Doom and Jinx? Especially since RIS went up to a 4++ at max? Is AoV needed for the Craftworld Aeldari codex to stand up in a competitive environment? Likewise, is Doom and Jinx needed to help Drukhari stand up in the said environment? Because it feels like blaster spam and Dissie spam isn't going to do the job on its own, though of course you can get rid of RIS with AoV.

Conversely, with the increase in the cost of the Knight Castellan and a 16% increase in the morbidity of that model leads to AM just taking pure AM? Or AM plus BA SCD? Namely because one could field a truly dizzying array of firepower for 2k in a battalion and brigade detachment, and still have plenty of points left over to field everyone's favorite BA captain.

I'm excited about the changes, but a bit apprehensive. It feels like the changes, especially with Aeldari soup and Ork Lootahs have weakened the Castellan appropriately, but have also weakened the things that naturally prey on the Castellan, so I'm not sure many things change from the meta of AM Soup.

What do you think?

I'm truly beside myself.

My hot take is:

We're gonna take a trip in the wayback machine to the Smashcaptain/Custode Bike + Astra Militarum gunline type lists we were seeing prior to the fly nerf. People might still use knights, in which case it'd be 2x 4++ Crusaders with the Eternal Fury relic doing a similar thing to the castellan, but I doubt we'll see tons of castellans.

"Eldar Soup" will become "mostly Drukhari" IMO - it was already headed that way, and flyer wings of hemlocks were pretty much the extent of the non-ynnari CWE detachments. Drukhari Haemonculus lists will be largely unaffected, Dissie spam is definitely nerfed heavily without doom. Harlequins and Ynnari are completely gonzo IMO.

Genestealer Cult is still very strong without Timmy Combo mental onslaught, and honestly I don't think it was a particularly competitive tactic in the first place to get the LD stacking up. People will still use the power, and everyone else's competitive lists getting worse just makes GSC look better. They were good, and stayed good while others got worse. we'll see more of them.

Tau are another one we might see some more of. Another that really disliked the Castellan, and really didn't take any nerfs. I wouldn't be surprised to start seeing these guys pop up a bit more than the current 1-2 per top 16.

If GW is gonna start charging separate points for Dominus-class weapons, then I want a Renegade to be able to mix and match.

That said, I think this is another instance of GW swinging the Nerf bat in the wrong direction. I don't think it's that the Castellan was under-priced, but rather that it was too easy and too effective to lump into a soup army. Soup still seems to be the problem, not the individual components.

Tau are actually really good right now. The most competitive things taking nerfs will only make them better. They just fly under most peoples radar because Castellan and Ynnari were so dominant (And I'm a Tau player)

It's weird that a couple of months ago in White Dwarf the example Jervis Johnson chose to use to illustrate how people just weren't capable of understanding his clear and accessible rules was that you can have models hovering in mid air part way up a terrain piece, but people didn't understand that you could.

And here we have the clarification for 40K's Wobbly Model Syndrome going the exact opposite way.

 Galas wrote:
Tau are actually really good right now. The most competitive things taking nerfs will only make them better. They just fly under most peoples radar because Castellan and Ynnari were so dominant (And I'm a Tau player)

IMO Tau have been amazing/borderline OP since CA18, they have a very powerful and codex and win their share of tournaments. They aren't an ITC darling like Ynnari and Imperial Soup so yeah they do go under the radar because people don't talk about them much. I can't really remember a time when Tau were not good for a prolonged period tbh, just like Eldar. They always had something going for them

Castellan took a big hit on the nerf bat, as expected. They are still great, but not as OP as before now. And Oblits are now 115 per model. Well, we kinda all saw that coming.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
If GW is gonna start charging separate points for Dominus-class weapons, then I want a Renegade to be able to mix and match.

That said, I think this is another instance of GW swinging the Nerf bat in the wrong direction. I don't think it's that the Castellan was under-priced, but rather that it was too easy and too effective to lump into a soup army. Soup still seems to be the problem, not the individual components.

As a knight player, yes the castellan was underpriced. It was basically a melta/battle cannon crusader with better range and ap, and better average damage output, especially with cawls wrath. Plus lots of melta, the autocannon carapace, and shieldbreaker missiles. The only enemy it didnt really have an effective answer to was mass hordss of chaff, where the avenger cannon's rate of fire helps clear them faster.

I personally love the majority of the changes, but as a Necron main, I have to voice my frustration... Did the really need to nerf necrons? Our wraith form is now the only variance of fly movement rules, or similar abilities amongst other armies, that says you still have to measure vertical distances. Additionally, we are now even FURTHER disinclined to use our night scythes or monoliths because we cannot turn 1 disembark our units that are set up in the tomb worlds according to this QA:

Q: Are units that are set up on their tomb world using the
Invasion Beams and Eternity Gate abilities considered to be on
the battlefield for the purposes of the Tactical Reserves matched
play rule?
A: No, they do not count as being set up on the
battlefield and are considered to be reinforcements for
the purposes of the Tactical Reserves rule.

Tricktock wrote:
I personally love the majority of the changes, but as a Necron main, I have to voice my frustration... Did the really need to nerf necrons? Our wraith form is now the only variance of fly movement rules, or similar abilities amongst other armies, that says you still have to measure vertical distances. Additionally, we are now even FURTHER disinclined to use our night scythes or monoliths because we cannot turn 1 disembark our units that are set up in the tomb worlds according to this QA:

Q: Are units that are set up on their tomb world using the
Invasion Beams and Eternity Gate abilities considered to be on
the battlefield for the purposes of the Tactical Reserves matched
play rule?
A: No, they do not count as being set up on the
battlefield and are considered to be reinforcements for
the purposes of the Tactical Reserves rule.

I dunno, I think our standing improved by proxy. The ceiling above us came down and CA2018 already bumped us up a few notches. We're in the mix, just not top tier.

Looks like a great FAQ. I think Tau are going to crush it for a while, they were already doing well and now their competition has all been nerfed.

I'm pretty content with this FAQ, fish bois look to be coming out strongest and maybe the nerf to Castellans will see a rise in Wraithknights now that the main competitor won't be taken as often.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
If GW is gonna start charging separate points for Dominus-class weapons, then I want a Renegade to be able to mix and match.

That said, I think this is another instance of GW swinging the Nerf bat in the wrong direction. I don't think it's that the Castellan was under-priced, but rather that it was too easy and too effective to lump into a soup army. Soup still seems to be the problem, not the individual components.

As a knight player, yes the castellan was underpriced. It was basically a melta/battle cannon crusader with better range and ap, and better average damage output, especially with cawls wrath. Plus lots of melta, the autocannon carapace, and shieldbreaker missiles. The only enemy it didnt really have an effective answer to was mass hordss of chaff, where the avenger cannon's rate of fire helps clear them faster.

As someone who had a castellan do his rendition of happy feet all over my objective holders I have to say they weren't really hurting in that department. But then I wasn't running purely horde, still... that was a lot of dead models a turn for one fething model I couldn't kill for my life.

Tricktock wrote:
I personally love the majority of the changes, but as a Necron main, I have to voice my frustration... Did the really need to nerf necrons? Our wraith form is now the only variance of fly movement rules, or similar abilities amongst other armies, that says you still have to measure vertical distances. Additionally, we are now even FURTHER disinclined to use our night scythes or monoliths because we cannot turn 1 disembark our units that are set up in the tomb worlds according to this QA:

Q: Are units that are set up on their tomb world using the
Invasion Beams and Eternity Gate abilities considered to be on
the battlefield for the purposes of the Tactical Reserves matched
play rule?
A: No, they do not count as being set up on the
battlefield and are considered to be reinforcements for
the purposes of the Tactical Reserves rule.

Well flyer isn't that bad thing. You rarely are in position to come out to useful spot. Monolith+deceiver combo hurts more.

Bigger issue is monolith is useless before T3 without deceiver.

At least contents don't automatically die anymore if all monoliths/night scythes die on T1. Not that is much help either but at least they threw us a bone.

I keep seeing people say “oblits are now 115 points.” They we’re always 115 points. There was a typo some cheating cheeky players tried to use and get away with is all.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I keep seeing people say “oblits are now 115 points.” They we’re always 115 points. There was a typo some cheating cheeky players tried to use and get away with is all.

This.

It was painfully obvious that it was an editing error. There was even a thread where people thought they were ok at 65ppm.

That was not ok, though I do have to say that I'm not sure they should be 115. 90ish sounds a bit better.

Smash captains will definitely be back.

Guard Valkaryrie and Scions got nerfed. Vultures too with the changes to Fly & Aircraft mode.

Castellan can still be in soup list, while Im annoyed at the 100 point increase I think it still might be worth it. All I have to do is drop a basilisk which isn't really going to change my list that much.

I personally felt capping the invul at 4++ and changing the top shelf stratagem CP cost was going to happen.

 Dynas wrote:
Smash captains will definitely be back.

Guard Valkaryrie and Scions got nerfed. Vultures too with the changes to Fly & Aircraft mode.

Castellan can still be in soup list, while Im annoyed at the 100 point increase I think it still might be worth it. All I have to do is drop a basilisk which isn't really going to change my list that much.

I personally felt capping the invul at 4++ and changing the top shelf stratagem CP cost was going to happen.

Annoyed? I think even if it was 200 point increase it would of been fine.

Most changes feel alright, though I am surprised they passed over Tau, Crusaders and Plaguebearers, which have been winning far more tournaments than anything non-Castellan that got nerfed, certainly more than Lootaz, Mental Onslaught or Deathwatch.

Makes the Ynnari savaging only more puzzling though, IMO.


If they can keep their cool and do sensible changes to things like the Castellan without going overboard, annihilating the Eldar Triumvirate Box from anything remotely resembling playability seems out of character.