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Not really many changes to my list from before, but I was inspire to "upgrade" all my Windriders to Shining Spears


So the idea is to Quicken/Fortune one unit of Spears to hurl at the enemy on the first turn, Do the same with the 2nd unit the following turn
Flyers do what they do, Prisms are used as either the primary anti-Knight with Linked Fire, or if no Knights or similar big targets, the Prism as the main clean-up crew for what the Hemlocks and Spears fail to pew-pew
Autarch and Ranger snipe support characters

Thoughts?
I'm tempted to split the Spears 7/5 instead of 6/6. That way more models benefit from first turn buffs and the 5-elf unit is more of a back-up/distraction

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Storm Guardians? What the hell?

personally, I'd opt for the Starcannons on the Crimson Hunter

 wuestenfux wrote:
Storm Guardians? What the hell?

Ya, I know, but I needed some cheap bodies to be a screen and didn't have points for 10 Guardians with a platform. I'm also still not happy with CWE troop options since I specifically started Eldar in 4th ed because they could have Bikes as troops.
So since I need 3 Troops, SGs will have to do. It would be 3 units of Rangers, but the FAQ changes make them less viable as a screen

They did help win a game for me once. I was able to redeploy them using Phantasm in response to a Blood Angel player moving his 20+ Death Company unit during his deployment (can't remember the name of the Strat he used, but we agreed due to the timing, Phantasm could be used in reaction)
I was able to put the Storm Guardians at just the right position to deny the DC unit's full move in his first turn. He could only move 9" up instead of 12" because he had to be 1" away from the SGs and couldn't quite fly over them. This protected the rest of my force and allowed me to hammer the DC in my turn (once they OBLITERATED the SGs)

 bullyboy wrote:
personally, I'd opt for the Starcannons on the Crimson Hunter

Maybe. The only 2 reasons I might keep the Brightlances is:
A) My model is modeled with Lances
B) I like having the CH dedicated to taking out bigger targets and I find the S8, AP-4 and D:d6 just slightly more reliable than S6, AP-3, D:d3

Although with the nerf to the Castellan, I might not need as much anti-tank....unless players start subbing their Castellan for 2 Crusaders instead.

Thanx for the feedback so far

EDIT: So I realized that if I swap the Lance for Star cannons, it buys me enough points to upgrade the Storm Gaurdians to more Rangers, so here is the list now:

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Here's another question: For my Spiritseer, what's the better power: Quicken or Protect.

Quicken seems like a good choice for a basically guaranteed Turn 1 charge, but after the first turn, I don't see it being super useful aside from maybe a later turn boost to an objective.
Protect, on the other hand, would make either Spear unit much harder to deal with (3++ against shooting basically, or 2+ armour against AP-0). That seems to have worth over multiple turns, not just the first or last.

Thoughts?

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Well, I'm not so much into a first turn charge.
The enemy pulls out and the unit stays in the open.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I'm not so much into a first turn charge.
The enemy pulls out and the unit stays in the open.

True, but with a larger unit I could charge several units, attack the one the would do the most damage in return and that would leave the rest to have to fall back, If they don't have Fly, they would be shooting that turn, so even if the Spears eat it, they'll have made a big difference.

But this assumes I can get an ideal charge turn 1 and that there aren't tons of chaff blocking my movement to do so. Clearing chaff in the shooting phase shouldn't be too hard, but if they prevent me from moving into an ideal position to charge multiple units, they did their job.
I'll probably go with Protect though, since it would make the Spears even harder to deal with and 16" movement even once could get a turn 1 charge already

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 Galef wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I'm not so much into a first turn charge.
The enemy pulls out and the unit stays in the open.

True, but with a larger unit I could charge several units, attack the one the would do the most damage in return and that would leave the rest to have to fall back, If they don't have Fly, they would be shooting that turn, so even if the Spears eat it, they'll have made a big difference.

But this assumes I can get an ideal charge turn 1 and that there aren't tons of chaff blocking my movement to do so. Clearing chaff in the shooting phase shouldn't be too hard, but if they prevent me from moving into an ideal position to charge multiple units, they did their job.
I'll probably go with Protect though, since it would make the Spears even harder to deal with and 16" movement even once could get a turn 1 charge already

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As this army is pretty fast as is - I'd tend to go protect in most matchups and play a little more conservative than aggressive. Unless the opponent has a ton of backfield characters that would benefit from hopping screens and multi-charging, the temptation to quicken would typically result in me playing too aggressive and out-of-position and losing that squad far too quickly.

The other bonus to taking Protect is that it gives more options to make BOTH my Spear units annoying to remove. Both would be Alaitoc and I'll have Protect, Fortune and LFR to play around with.
If I can hide one of the units, I can really layer on the biffs to the other, making them very hard to remove

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I would always pick a warlock with reroll (psychic test) warlord trait. Warlock + Farseer can use 'seer councel' stratagem and get +1 on the test and both get a reroll. Just to make sure that jinxs and doom really work when you need it!

shogun wrote:
I would always pick a warlock with reroll (psychic test) warlord trait. Warlock + Farseer can use 'seer councel' stratagem and get +1 on the test and both get a reroll. Just to make sure that jinxs and doom really work when you need it!

Couple huge issue with that:
1) That would require making my weakest HQ the WL, no thank you
2) Warlocks are only 10pts less that a Spiritseer and could die to a single Perils, no thank you
3) My Hemlocks are often close enough to the targets I need to Jinx, so that works out far easier than trying to get a Warlock in range.

I've actually killed WLs with my Hemlocks but moving really close to them, casting Jinx, potentally Smite, removing any nearby units in the shooting phase that might be close to the Hemlock with other shooting, then once the Character is now the closest, the Hemlock unloads and kills it

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 Galef wrote:

shogun wrote:
I would always pick a warlock with reroll (psychic test) warlord trait. Warlock + Farseer can use 'seer councel' stratagem and get +1 on the test and both get a reroll. Just to make sure that jinxs and doom really work when you need it!

Couple huge issue with that:
1) That would require making my weakest HQ the WL, no thank you
2) Warlocks are only 10pts less that a Spiritseer and could die to a single Perils, no thank you
3) My Hemlocks are often close enough to the targets I need to Jinx, so that works out far easier than trying to get a Warlock in range.

I've actually killed WLs with my Hemlocks but moving really close to them, casting Jinx, potentally Smite, removing any nearby units in the shooting phase that might be close to the Hemlock with other shooting, then once the Character is now the closest, the Hemlock unloads and kills it

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Trying to get a -1 save (also inv save) with jinx's is crucial at certain moments. Think about knights, custodes jetbikes etc.. Hemlock that needs to roll a 7+ is going to fail at the moment that you really need it. I would even drop the autarch and spiritseer and get two warlock skyrunners. One warlock could use reroll psychic test with WL trait and the other could use the +1 on the test with the stratagem. Farseer also cast with +1 and that really helps with doom and fortune. If you are worried about the fragile WL warlock, then you could give it the 'gem' relic and keep him close to a unit rangers if possible.

Without the autarch and spiritseer you could use the remaining points for more shining spears.

Craftworld Psychic powers 'make' or 'break' the army and now you rely to much on Lv7 powers to succeed.

Just my two cents!

I certainly respect your insight. I just haven't been able to get Warlocks to work.
I every game I've ever used them, I feel like I'm wasting so many points as they fail just as much as a Hemlock (which you are right, happens well enough).
I figure if I have to spend CPs (like for the +1 test that requires the Farseer be near) I may as well assume 1CP for a Command reroll for my Jinx Hemlock

And that works well enough for me, and allows me to buff my Autarch (which will always be my favorite WL) to take something unique. Although I have gone back and forth between Mark of the Hunter on my Autarch, or SotSV on my Farseer. Either seem good for me

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In a list, I like to have one Warlock with whatever key power I need so I can use a stratagem for the +1 to dice roll.

I've only used a single Fire Prism before and really enjoyed its flexibility. I definitely see great value in two. Are three absolutely critical? Combined with fliers, I do see a lot of challenges with target priority. Just a bit concerned about lacking number of bodies for some level of board control, especially as models can move over the flier bases.

 Galef wrote:
I certainly respect your insight. I just haven't been able to get Warlocks to work.
I every game I've ever used them, I feel like I'm wasting so many points as they fail just as much as a Hemlock (which you are right, happens well enough).
I figure if I have to spend CPs (like for the +1 test that requires the Farseer be near) I may as well assume 1CP for a Command reroll for my Jinx Hemlock

Off course your warlocks fail just as much if you don't use the WLT or seer council stratagem. With the warlock setup you can use the WL reroll, +1 stratagem and reroll d6. That is really better compared to casting with the hemlock.

Hemlock wants to be close and against knights + custodes jetbikes you probably go up against the culexus. That makes it even harder to successfully cast jinx.

Prism damage is to random and only a good deal if you can keep shooting for a few turns. It works in your armylist because the flyers + shining spears take all the heat. You struggle against armylist with a decent inv save against shooting (custodes jetbikes and knights) or heavy infantry. I would go for a single shining spear unit and try to give it fortune + protect + -1 to hit stratagem. Drop the 5-shining spear unit and get more anti-infantry shooting.

It's your list, but I predict that your army will fall apart at the moment that you fail the psychic powers.

shogun wrote:
It's your list, but I predict that your army will fall apart at the moment that you fail the psychic powers.

Which....is exactly why I just don't do Warlocks. I get what you are saying. Take a Warlock and support it properly and I'll have more success with my powers.
My issue with that is that even with that support, the powers can still fail. And now, instead of having CPs to , IDK, use LFR or Fire & Fade to get my Spears out of danger, I've used them on a Strat that still didn't guarantee success.

That's why I like Hemlocks. Even if they fail their power, the power was just a bonus anyway and the Hemlock itself is useful. A Warlock is not useful if it's power fails and unlike Farseers, they require extra help to mitigate that.
If Warlocks weren't just 2Ws (snipers exist), or if they were reasonably cheaper than Spirit Seers, or if the Warlock Skyrunners had 4Ws, than it might be worth it.
But so far, in my experience, Warlocks require too much support for such a weak unit and the lists I've played without them, even when the Powers fail, don't really "fall apart" because I anticipate and adapt.

However, I am now thinking a Warlock Skyrunner might be an easy swap for the Spiritseer. I'm 2pts under 2000 even and conveniently a Warlock Skyrunner is 2ppm more than a Spiritseer (because the twin cats). It would require said Warlock to always be near the Farseer, but it also frees up a Relic to give my WL Autarch the Shimmerplume to really make him hard to hit. So in that regard, adding a Warlock might work out. So at the least I'll give it another try, thanx

 Sarigar wrote:
I've only used a single Fire Prism before and really enjoyed its flexibility. I definitely see great value in two. Are three absolutely critical? Combined with fliers, I do see a lot of challenges with target priority. Just a bit concerned about lacking number of bodies for some level of board control, especially as models can move over the flier bases.

Yes, absolutely 3 is critical. For 3 reasons:
1) Knights exist and even with Jinx and the change to Rotate Ion Shields, it still might take 3 Prisms and Linked Fire to drop a single Knight 1 one turn. That free ups my other units to choose different targets instead of having my whole army pound 1 Knight per turn.
My list can reliably drop 3 Knights in 2 turns
2) Even against non-Knight lists, having the versatility of 3 Prisms is great. I can Linked Fire 2 of them to drop a heavy vehicle or large Monster or heavy infantry unit, while the 3rd Prism does it's own thing
3) With Linked Fire, you only need 1 Prism in LoS. The other 2 can hide behind buildings in a way that allows them to just see the exposed Prism. But this also creates a situation in which that exposed Prism takes the brunt of the enemy retaliation and often dies, leaving me just 2.
As you NEED 2 Prisms to Link Fire, the 3rd Prism often gives you a buffer to still be able to use the Strat on later turns

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 Galef wrote:
1) Knights exist and even with Jinx and the change to Rotate Ion Shields, it still might take 3 Prisms and Linked Fire to drop a single Knight 1 one turn. That free ups my other units to choose different targets instead of having my whole army pound 1 Knight per turn.-

That's why you want the jinx to work. Prism shooting can be very random and if the shooting sucks at turn one AND jinx failed then you might not drop that knight turn one and the run rampage. Prisms don't want to move but if the knight player went first and the move + advance one forward then you need to drop him because it will cause havoc next turn.

Just practice a few times against 3 knights + 3 custodes jetbike captains + loyal 32, and compare the moments that your psychic powers failed and succeeded. Good luck!

I think you've all but convinced me to swap the Spiritseer for a Warlock Skyrunner to run with the Farseer.
But more so to ensure Protect goes off on the Spears on the first turn.
I think taking the risk that Jinx fails on the first turn is worth it. 3 Prisms rolling average can still take down a 4++ Crusader or Gallant with just a bit more help from the Flyers if needed.

But I really need the Spears to live since Knights don't get saves against them in melee

Now I just have the unpleasant task of going through my bits-box to see if I can somehow upgrade my Infantry Seer to a Skyrunner without having to buy a new model

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 Galef wrote:

I think taking the risk that Jinx fails on the first turn is worth it. 3 Prisms rolling average can still take down a 4++ Crusader or Gallant with just a bit more help from the Flyers if needed.

No you won't. Maybe a few times you roll average or above average but at times when you need it the most (turn 1.) the will suck. I often played with my buddy side by side and he also fielded prisms. Didn't know he knew so many curse words. It's the whole random d3 rolling that really screws up the prism's damage output.

At an average you shoot with 12 shots, 11 hits, 10 wounds , 5 failed 4++ saves, =5xd3 damage= 10 wounds on a knight (without jinx). Then those flyers need to help out a lot if you want to kill that knight turn 1!

I can't argue that's not the right average, but it certainly hasn't been my experience. Prior to the RIS nerf, even with Jinx a Knight would still get 4+ rolls (3++ with Jinx) and I could down them just fine with enough left over to strip wounds off another.
Maybe my dice are loaded? Maybe I've pleased the dice gods? But I've been happy without using a Warlock to cast Jinx.

But in any case, the Warlock Skyrunner is officially in the list, so I've got the tools there if Jinx is ever more important than Protect.

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 Galef wrote:
I can't argue that's not the right average, but it certainly hasn't been my experience. Prior to the RIS nerf, even with Jinx a Knight would still get 4+ rolls (3++ with Jinx) and I could down them just fine with enough left over to strip wounds off another.
Maybe my dice are loaded? Maybe I've pleased the dice gods? But I've been happy without using a Warlock to cast Jinx.

But in any case, the Warlock Skyrunner is officially in the list, so I've got the tools there if Jinx is ever more important than Protect.

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It's because the actual average damage result happens very rarely. More often than not you are doing more or less. Plus getting 4-5 wounds from another source is often included in your memory.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I can't argue that's not the right average, but it certainly hasn't been my experience. Prior to the RIS nerf, even with Jinx a Knight would still get 4+ rolls (3++ with Jinx) and I could down them just fine with enough left over to strip wounds off another.
Maybe my dice are loaded? Maybe I've pleased the dice gods? But I've been happy without using a Warlock to cast Jinx.

But in any case, the Warlock Skyrunner is officially in the list, so I've got the tools there if Jinx is ever more important than Protect.

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It's because the actual average damage result happens very rarely. More often than not you are doing more or less. Plus getting 4-5 wounds from another source is often included in your memory.

Very True. Often I've already done a few MWs in the Psychic Phase via Smite. And Prior to swapping my Brightlances for Starcannons, the Crimson Hunter also contributed some wounds.
The only times I have dropped a Knight in 1 turn with only the Prisms was when I "bluffed" RIS onto one Knight with the Crimson Hunter and proceeded to shoot a different Knight with the Prisms (so it only had a 5++ save, downgraded to 6++ with Jinx) I think that only worked because I Doomed Knight A and cast Smite on it once. So while Knight B had Jinx on it, by starting to shoot at the Doomed Knight that already had wounds on it, I "tricked" the Knight Player into using RIS on that Knight, which also had 4++ form the WL trait.

Still a success and given the change to RIS, I think I'll do fine. I'm actually more concerned with non-Knight lists as this point

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@ Shotgun:
Your suggestion to swap the Spiritseer to a Warlock inspired me to magnetize the model so it can be either:

Looking nice! Good luck!