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Can a weapon’s AP mean you can’t make a saving throw?

I saw a comment on another thread that seemed to suggest this, but didn’t want to query it there and bring the thread off topic so that I’d ask here.

The post I read seemed to suggest that if a model with a 5+ armour save was wounded by a weapon with AP-2 they couldn’t benefit from cover (a +1 modifier to their saving throw) since you can’t modify a roll you don’t make.

My understanding was that in this circumstance the wounded model could make a saving through and pass on a 6, essentially the AP -2 gives the model a saving throw of 7+ which you could making a saving throw for and modify the saving throw by +1, so a 6 is a save. Or more accurately, the -2 from AP and the +1 from cover are applied concurrently to the saving throw, modifying the roll by -1.

Given that some models have a saving throw on their stat line of 7+ it seems unlikely that the cover modifier can’t be applied, but I thought I’d ask here in case I’ve misunderstood.

You can, and actually must, always make a saving throw. Unless a special rule says otherwise. Of course, no one (except one guy) bothers to make a saving throw of 7+, or even worse. Save the time and move on.

4. Saving Throw: The player
commanding the target unit
then makes a saving throw by
rolling a dice and modifying the
roll by the Armour Penetration
characteristic of the weapon
that caused the damage.

Terrain and Cover
The battlefields of the far future are littered
with terrain features such as ruins, craters
and twisted copses. Models can take shelter
within such terrain features to gain protection
against incoming weapons’ fire.

If a unit is entirely on or within any terrain
feature, add 1 to its models’ saving throws
against shooting attacks to represent the
cover received from the terrain (invulnerable
saves are unaffected). Units gain no benefit
from cover in the Fight phase.

You make that saving throw, and apply modifiers to it, like from cover, and AP from the weapon. In your example the model would pass the saving throw on 6+.

Aash wrote:
Can a weapon’s AP mean you can’t make a saving throw?

I saw a comment on another thread that seemed to suggest this, but didn’t want to query it there and bring the thread off topic so that I’d ask here.

The post I read seemed to suggest that if a model with a 5+ armour save was wounded by a weapon with AP-2 they couldn’t benefit from cover (a +1 modifier to their saving throw) since you can’t modify a roll you don’t make.

My understanding was that in this circumstance the wounded model could make a saving through and pass on a 6, essentially the AP -2 gives the model a saving throw of 7+ which you could making a saving throw for and modify the saving throw by +1, so a 6 is a save. Or more accurately, the -2 from AP and the +1 from cover are applied concurrently to the saving throw, modifying the roll by -1.

Given that some models have a saving throw on their stat line of 7+ it seems unlikely that the cover modifier can’t be applied, but I thought I’d ask here in case I’ve misunderstood.

The initial statement shows a complete failure of understanding how saving throws work in 8th.
This is not pre-8th edition where my AP denied you a saving throw. AP is a modifier to your roll, hence why its a minus value. AP -2 means you substract 2 from what you rolled.
So a space marine needs a 3 or more. Rolls a 6 but the weapon has AP -2 so the 6 - 2 = 4 which is 3 or more and therefor saved.

Since Cover is also a modifier it becomes 6 - 2 + 1 = 5

All the modifiers are applies at once and the save always remains the same.

So, for your example, with a 5+ save, AP-2 and cover you will always need to roll 5+. The die roll will however be modified with the -2 for the AP and the +1 for cover, so a resulting -1. This means that you need to roll a 6 to get your 5+.

I'm guessing this was my comment on a proposed rule change.
The GW rules allow you yo make a save hence why demons have a 7+ Save.

The problem was the person was proposing a house rule that stated that "saves of 5+ can not be taken against astartes bolters"

Thats totally different and at odds with GW exsisting rules.

Ice_can wrote:
I'm guessing this was my comment on a proposed rule change.
The GW rules allow you yo make a save hence why demons have a 7+ Save.

The problem was the person was proposing a house rule that stated that "saves of 5+ can not be taken against astartes bolters"

Thats totally different and at odds with GW exsisting rules.

You could make that work with a tweak to the wording. "Models with a save of 5+ or 6+ instead have a save of 7+" or something like that. But I feel it's a bit clunky still for such a common weapon.

Anyway, to the proposed rules forum!

Ice_can wrote:
I'm guessing this was my comment on a proposed rule change.
The GW rules allow you yo make a save hence why demons have a 7+ Save.

The problem was the person was proposing a house rule that stated that "saves of 5+ can not be taken against astartes bolters"

Thats totally different and at odds with GW exsisting rules.

Yeah, I think that your comment was the one I was referring to, didn’t want to bring it up in the other forum and go off topic.
I misunderstood, thanks for clarifying.

Daemons have a 6+ for the most part, not a 7+.

Poxwalkers have a 7+, as do some DE units, I think.

Also an important thing to remember is that unlike previous editions you are not forced to take the best save. Are your Bloodletters being shot at and you need them to die for some reason? You're free to use the 6+ Save (and be affected by AP) instead of the 5+ invulnerable save if you so wish.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Daemons have a 6+ for the most part, not a 7+.

Poxwalkers have a 7+, as do some DE units, I think.

My bad my buddy has been blessed by nurgle and it's my usual point of reference.

Ice_can wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Daemons have a 6+ for the most part, not a 7+.

Poxwalkers have a 7+, as do some DE units, I think.

My bad my buddy has been blessed by nurgle and it's my usual point of reference.

No worries-just making sure information is accurate.

It's irrelevant to the main gist of the thread, at least.