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So I'm not overly thrilled with the unit composition and weapon options for these units. Warlock in particular have jumped around in various ways for several editions.
At one point they could be bought as unit upgrades to Guardian squads, or taken as units.
8E seems to want to give them both options, but it just makes for some clunky options. Why is 1 Warlock a Character, but 2+ together completely lose that?
It makes not sense

Anyway, here is my proposal: Ditch the Conclave datasheets altogether, and instead compose Warlocks and Warlock Skyrunners in the same way as Marine LTs
You get 1 to 5 CHARACTER Warlocks per "unit". During deployment, all models must be deployed within 6" of another member of the unit, but act as independent units from that point onward, with its own Power from Runes of Battle and Smite (Destructor)
Now add a "Conclave" ability to the datasheet:
If a Warlock is within 2" of another friendly <Craftworld> WARLOCK model at the start of the Psychic Phase, it may reroll any 1s rolled for Psychic tests.

Hopefully this is a better compromise over having units of 1 that are Character, or units of 2+ that are garbage.
One additional change required for this is the Concordance of Power Stratagem, which I would just change to require 2+ Warlocks to be within 2" of each other and 1 of them gets to double the range of their power
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Now for WraithGuard/Blades. WG used to have a minimum unit size or 3. I truly feel that with the CWE population dwindling and their reluctance to use Wraith-constructs, this should be the minimum unit size again.
I also feel like they should be able to mix weapon options instead of all 1 or the other.
But to encourage units of 5 (because GW would want to do this since the box comes with 5), I propose the following for their weapon options:
-The entire unit may replace their wraithcannons with D-scthes
-Alternatively, if the unit numbers 5 or more models, any number of models may replace their wraithcannons with D-scythes

So if you want to mix-n-match, you have to take 5+ models, but units of 3 or 4 with all WC or D-scythes are possible

Apply the same to WraithBlades with Axe/Sheild or double Swords

Thoughts?

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The only thing I can think of, is someone making this a “character bomb” that can’t be targeted. If it had a drawback of say, if you join up 3 or more models in the conclave it becomes targetable like a normal unit. You could still buy, say, four warlocks and split them up into two groups of two, but if you throw them all into one group, they become more noticeable (and therefore more easily targeted).

But I think adding such a rule would make this change kinda pointless.
Keep in mind that I am also keeping the points at 55ppm/65-70ppm for Skyrunner.

Warlocks aren't cheap (which is the problem) and with the exception of the double range Strat for 1 Warlock, they need to get in close. And since they split at deployment, you couldn't use Webway to drop them all in. And even if you could, that's a lot of points not doing anything T1.
And at only 2W per model (3 for Skyrunners), if they get targeted, they die. Regular Snipers drop Warlocks fast. My change wouldn't alter that.

At the end of the day, I don't think there should be 4 separate kinds of Warlock (Infantry, Infantry Character, Bike & Bike Character). Making just 2 datasheets that are both Character, and can have multiple models "per unit" that split like LTs should accommodate most players

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Four data sheets is a bit silly.

I’ve always been a proponent of trade-offs. And on my suggestion, you could always change the number of models as the tipping point.

Perhaps an option would be that at X+ models they become targetable like a regular squad, but an individual model can give up manifesting a power to add 6” to the range of one other psycher in the group? This would somewhat be similar to the current conclave, but slightly buffed (originally up to 3 models could do one power, now you could have one out of 3 do a power, but now from 12” further away so they’re less likely to be in range of being attacked). If you’re feeling brave, you could choose to move them in close and unleash with separate powers, but then you’re risking then getting shot - unless they spread out to become individuals. Lots of tactical choices that way, rather than simply blobbing then up becoming the obvious and best way to go.

And I think the Wraithguard change is an excellent idea, BTW. (Personally, I’d like the option to mix melee and ranged wraiths together, there’s no real reason not to allow that sort of thing)

Sorry, Galef. I'm not on board with the premise of this one. I personally like the idea of having a squad of space elf jedi who link their brains up to be more combat effective. Having a single jedi running around helping other non-jedi out is cool, but so is a squad of witch blade wielders sharing psychic buffs with each other.

Rather than wonky deployment rules for a unit that's sort of kind of not really a squad, I'd rather have basically what we have now. A unit capable of casting up to 3 powers a turn including an automatically d6 damage super smite is a cool concept. The models in the unit are just too expensive given that you need a lot of them to make the most of the unit and they give up a lot of the benefits of their character counterpart.

If 3 character warlocks give me 3 powers a turn and a 3-man non-character warlock squad only gives me 1 power a turn while also being unscreenable, then there should probably be a pretty hefty price cut for the individual squad members of the non-character squad.

Four datasheets for what are, effectively, four signficantly different units seems fine to me. We probably don't need wolf guard battle leaders to get lumped in with wolf guard squad data sheets, right?

I'm tired and rambling. tldr; on this part is that warlocks should be cheaper when in a squad but are conceptually just fine.

Regarding the wraith units...

Changing the minimum squad size to 3 is a good idea. Makes it easier to field a fluffy Iyanden list. Creates interesting options with seating arrangements. Lets you stick a WG squad in that falcon you love using even though serpents are generally better. I like it.

Being able to mix and match gear seems like a reasonable idea. WG are tough enough and powerful enough to actually get some mileage out of being a versatile mixed-weapon squad. Limiting them to only being able to mix and match weapons if you have a certain number of models feels artificial and limiting. Unless GW is on the phone with you saying they'll only implement the rest of this idea if you include a 5 man minimum limitation, you can probably safely propose that they mix and match in 3 and 4 man units.

As Stormonou mentions, being able to mix melee weapons and guns together (effectively combining wraith guard/blades) seems like it would be a lot of fun. I don't necessarily want a full squad of axes, but I'd love one axe in a five man squad. How cool would a three-man scythe, gun, and axe or sword squad be?

I totally get where you're coming from, but I think for in-game I'd have an issue with not being able to target what could essentially be a unit of 5 models because they can hide behind the targeting characters rule.

I've always seen the targeting characters rule as making sense because it simulates the difficulty in picking out an individual in the confusion of battle, and snipers can ignore this because they are specifically tasked with/trained to pick out these individuals. Why would it be harder to target a unit of 5 warlocks than a unit of 5 guardians?


Maybe there is a way to achieve a similar effect, again taking a leaf out of the space marines special rules:


One data sheet with 1-5 Warlocks/Skyrunners which can be set up in one of two ways:


1) As per Space Marine LTs:
"During Deployment, all models in this unit must be set up at the same time, though they do not need to be set up in unit coherency. From that point onwards , each Lieutenant is treated as a separate unit."
Simply substitute "Lieutenant" for ""Warlock/Skyrunner".

2) Set up as a single unit in unit cohereency just as you would any other unit.
If you choose option one, each model gains the CHARACTER keyword, if you choose option 2, the unit gains the CONCLAVE keyword.


I'd then go one step further and introduce a strategem, again inspired by the Space Marines, this time the Tactical Flexibility strategem: for 1 CP, at the start of one of your movement phases the Warlock unit can split up. If it does so, each model gains the CHARACTER keyword and loses the CONCLAVE keyword.

And to finish off, another Strategem for 1 CP, inspired by the Orks ability to Mob Up. Allow Warlocks which are Characters within 2" of each other to form a Conclave (not sure if this should be at the start or the end of the movement phase, but I think at the end of the movement phase would work best). Set a limit on max 5 models in the newly formed unit, and each model in the unit would lose the CHARACTER keyword but the unit gains the CONCLAVE keyword.

The same model can't join and leave a Conclave in the same turn. As for Victory Points, they would count for whatever state (Characters or Conclave) the models are in when they are destroyed/scoring an objective.



Not sure if this would work, I don't play Eldar, but would this or something like it be feasible? I don't really know anything about Wraitguard/Wraithblades so don't really have an opinion on that.

I just don't get the concerns for 5+ non-targetable characters. YOU CAN DO THIS NOW AND NO ONE DOES!
Arguably, this is because it requires an HQ slot for each model, but if it was so OP, I'm sure some players would already be using the Supreme Command detachment to do it.

I do get the idea of having a unit of Psykers that act as 1 unit though. Even though they are currently way too expensive for that unit to be viable. Seriously, the only Conclave units I've seen played it a min-unit of 2 on foot hiding behind terrain. That doesn't sound very "jedi-like" at all to me.

However, in the interest of leaving the option available to the players that want it for....reasons...how does this sound:

Start with the Conclave Datasheet (so 2 min Warlocks per datasheet) and they can add up to 8 additional Warlocks
The unit does NOT start with the Character rule and can be played just as a single unit just as now.
However, each MODEL may select a power from Runes of Battle. Each MODEL may cast or deny 1 power. Each MODEL also has Smite (Destructor)

Here's the part I like, however: During Deployment, up to 5 models from the unit may be deployed within 6" of another model from this unit and from that point onwards, these models act as a separate independent units and gains the CHARACTER Keyword.

BOOM! Single Datasheet for all Warlocks (well, plus another for Skyrunners). Now you can play them as a unit, or as Characters. Note that with this change, you can no longer buy a Single Warlock, since the min unit size is 2. But I like that as it seems more fluffy, you can get 2 Warlocks for 1 HQ slot and is further separates them from Spiritseers.

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I don't have a problem with someone fielding 5 or more characters in an army, as you say, this can and does happen already. I have a Primaris Marines army and sometimes field a Captain, a Librarian, 2 Lieutenants and an Ancient. My reservations would be twofold with the Warlocks though:

1) A unit of up to 10 models each with the Character key word taking up only one slot in a Detachment. It just seems that this would be open to abuse and spamming. As it is only one Datasheet, the organised play rule of three means you could potentially have 30 Characters in a 2,000pt army just from the Warlock. Three 10 model units is a very different prospect to 30 individual characters. As far as points costs go, this might be prohibitive, but I can imagine that armies could be built around this creating a variety of problems.

Start with the Conclave Datasheet (so 2 min Warlocks per datasheet) and they can add up to 8 additional Warlocks
The unit does NOT start with the Character rule and can be played just as a single unit just as now.
However, each MODEL may select a power from Runes of Battle. Each MODEL may cast or deny 1 power. Each MODEL also has Smite (Destructor)

Here's the part I like, however: During Deployment, up to 5 models from the unit may be deployed within 6" of another model from this unit and from that point onwards, these models act as a separate independent units and gains the CHARACTER Keyword.

In this case for a single datasheet you could get 6 units - one 5 model squad, and 5 characters. 6 units from one datasheet seems to invite abuse and circumvents the rule of three in ways that could lead to exploits and lead to unforseen consequences. Following the rule of three, for three Warlock datasheets you could have three 5 model warlock squads and 15 characters. And with the rules you suggest that would allow 30 psychic powers per turn. Given the Psychic Focus rule about not duplicating psychic powers this might not be an issue as you'd probably run out of psychic powers before you ran out of psykers. If each model can deny a psychic power then this might be a tad overpowered - potentially 30 denys per turn.

2) I dislike the idea in your original post where a group of Characters within 2" of each other would boost each other but retain the Character key word. It seems that in effect you could operate as if its a regular unit, but not be targeted as one. Firstly, any attacks from multiple shot weapons would only be able to damage one model instead of damaging the unit as a whole in addition to benefitting form the difficulty in targetting characters. If this was 10 warlocks within 2" of one another but each is a character, not only do I need to make sure there are no other units closer to me, but I'd also lose any additional damage form a multishot weapon such as a Heavy Bolter or flamer. I'd also be unable to target any of the Warlocks except for the indiviual closest to me.


The answer might be to limit the number of datasheets in the army to 0-1 per army, or to cap the unit size at at 3 or 5 instead of 10.

If it acts like a unit, then I think it should be able to be targeted like a unit, and suffer damage as a unit too.

See, I kinda DONT want them to act like a unit. I was just trying to find a solution the accommodates players that do.

I still firmly believe the best way to handle Warlocks is to make them all single model Characters that are 1-5 per datasheet and deploy separately. It would be nice for them to have some kind of rule that encourages them to stick close to each other, but it is low on my priority list for this change.

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 Galef wrote:

Start with the Conclave Datasheet (so 2 min Warlocks per datasheet) and they can add up to 8 additional Warlocks
The unit does NOT start with the Character rule and can be played just as a single unit just as now.
However, each MODEL may select a power from Runes of Battle. Each MODEL may cast or deny 1 power. Each MODEL also has Smite (Destructor)

Here's the part I like, however: During Deployment, up to 5 models from the unit may be deployed within 6" of another model from this unit and from that point onwards, these models act as a separate independent units and gains the CHARACTER Keyword.

BOOM! Single Datasheet for all Warlocks (well, plus another for Skyrunners). Now you can play them as a unit, or as Characters. Note that with this change, you can no longer buy a Single Warlock, since the min unit size is 2. But I like that as it seems more fluffy, you can get 2 Warlocks for 1 HQ slot and is further separates them from Spiritseers.

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I feel like trying to wrap the character and non-character versions up into a single datasheet makes the conclave's problems worse and doesn't really do anything to benefit the character version.

The way I see it...
* The character warlock is fine as is.
* The conclave is too expensive for what it does.
* The conclave's constituent warlocks are weaker than individual character warlocks because they can't be screened and because they don't learn and cast psychic powers as efficiently
* The conclave's actual capabilities are perfectly fine; they hit things pretty hard, know and cast a bunch of powers, and can reliably do a big smite (until they take enough casualties).

Really, the only issue there is the points cost. Being unscreenable and less efficient at casting powers means they have an excuse to be significantly cheaper than character warlocks. So really, we should just lower their price tag a little. Your proposal would make each member of a conclave more comparable to a character warlock in power meaning they would have less excuse to be cheaper. So it kind of just feels like you're trying to wipe out the conclave.

Let the conclave remain exactly as it is, but lower the cost of each member to, like, 22ish points (a similar points reduction for the mounted version). You could probably even get away with dropping a wound off of each member of the conclave to lower the cost even more. Fluff-wise, these guys are the former aspect warrior seers who simply don't combat cast as well as the character warlocks and thus tend to link up their minds and lean on each other to up their psychic prowess in combat.

EDIT: I don't see any inherit benefit in deleting two datasheets when the character and non-character versions of the unit should theoretically behave very differently. If we're just trying to save book space, rolling Wraith guard/blades together and storm/defender guardians together probably makes more sense and saves just as many trees.

Actually, that's not bad. Maybe Conclave Warlocks are the newbies and Character Warlocks are more experienced. I'd be all for Conclave Warlocks getting a MASSIVE points drop (like to 25ppm max). But given the power of the Runes of Battle, I just don't see GW ever doing this.

I guess I just miss the days when Warlocks were either a unit of 3+ Warlocks, or 1 per unit upgrade to Guardian based units.
And yes, my proposal is based on the premises that EITHER the Conclave or the Single model Warlock needs to go. Unless there is a fluff reason for them to be different, it should just be 1 datasheet.

Having each member of the unit able to cast/deny its own power actually justifies their points cost. Being able to split off model that then gain the Character rule just makes the datasheet all the more useful and condensed.

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 Galef wrote:
Actually, that's not bad. Maybe Conclave Warlocks are the newbies and Character Warlocks are more experienced.

Pretty much what I pictured. Or perhaps characters aren't "less experienced" so much as they just don't have as much of a knack for casting in combat. Either way, it seems reasonable for there to be warlocks who do better as part of a group effort than on their own.

I'd be all for Conclave Warlocks getting a MASSIVE points drop (like to 25ppm max). But given the power of the Runes of Battle, I just don't see GW ever doing this.

Well, if we leave the conclave rules basically unchanged, a big unit of warlocks is not more efficient at casting than a few individual warlocks. At 25 points per model, you'd be paying roughly half again as many points per Runes of Battle power as a character warlock. And it's arguably easier to diminish that casting because the unit isn't screenable.

I guess I just miss the days when Warlocks were either a unit of 3+ Warlocks, or 1 per unit upgrade to Guardian based units.

I feel you, but the current character warlock rules let you do that pretty well. Unless you're fielding more than 3 units of guardians at a time, you can take one warlock per guardian squad.

And yes, my proposal is based on the premises that EITHER the Conclave or the Single model Warlock needs to go. Unless there is a fluff reason for them to be different, it should just be 1 datasheet.

I personally don't really agree on this point. If the unit mechanically behaves differently as a squad than as a character (and it does thanks primarily to its casting rules), then having a different data sheet for those mechanics makes sense. This might be a confusing comparison since they've often had similar deployment rules, but we don't need to get rid of Wolf Guard characters just because they can be latched on to other SW squads or taken as a unit, right? That said, I think there are plenty of fluff explanations for differentiating character and non-character warlocks. See our above discussion about explaining why some of them hang out together instead of chilling with guardians.

Having each member of the unit able to cast/deny its own power actually justifies their points cost. Being able to split off model that then gain the Character rule just makes the datasheet all the more useful and condensed.
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"Condensed," sure, but I don't think it's really doing the squad version any favors. If we combine the datasheets and make the squad version of the unit into a suboptimal optional rule, then we're kind of just soft banning them.

Keep Conclave how it is, maybe somewhat buff their stats, but just give them a rule which doesn't allow to shoot at them if they are not the closest unit. Maybe throw an ability to intercept wounds from Farseers into the mix as well. It won't be broken (2 attacks with no AP, eh) but at least they would be hard to get shot from the table and in theory you would be able to pilot an invisible seer council into close combat with enemy if you really want that. It would also be very unique.

 Shadenuat wrote:
Keep Conclave how it is, maybe somewhat buff their stats, but just give them a rule which doesn't allow to shoot at them if they are not the closest unit. Maybe throw an ability to intercept wounds from Farseers into the mix as well. It won't be broken (2 attacks with no AP, eh) but at least they would be hard to get shot from the table and in theory you would be able to pilot an invisible seer council into close combat with enemy if you really want that. It would also be very unique.

Honestly, I don't think there would be anything wrong with making the Conclave 1-10 unit size (instead of 2-10), give the unit CHARACTER, but add a rule that if the unit contains more than 3 models, the Character rule is lost. But also at 4+ models is when you get extra powers and full Smite, so there's the trade-off.

Make that change, and you can drop the non-Conclave datasheets as redundant. I would also keep them at the current Conclave points cost
Now you get 1 datasheet for all your Warlock needs. Kinda wish I had thought of this change before creating this thread.

1-3 Warlocks like this would pretty much just be for the extra wounds and would keep the Character Protection. 4+ would work exactly as the Conclave does now.
2 Warlocks like this would have the same wounds as a Spiritseer, but with more Atx and less vulnerable to single shot weapons that can do 3+ damage.

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