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what were his abilities, skills that made him incredible. I have often seen many consider him the single greatest combatant in the entire history of the Astartes. Simply the best warrior (not including the primarchs and The Emperor)

what made him so great? how do other people describe his abilities, his skills as being? what did he do that others couldn't dream of doing. are there quotes, speeches or anything said or implied about his abilities in the sources?

From what I read in Black Legion, he had incredible speed to match his incredible skill. It says in Black Legion that he slowed down at over 1000 years of age to that of a normal space marine, which was the only reason Abaddon was able to beat him.

He was slightly warp touched.
Memory is a bit fuzzy these days.
He had a dream about the Eisenstein. Which caused Dorn to privately disown him.
As hes not a particularly developed character yet. Who knows how much that played into it.
He could live ground hog day everyday. Which led to him being a great fighter.

LightKing wrote:
what were his abilities, skills that made him incredible. I have often seen many consider him the single greatest combatant in the entire history of the Astartes. Simply the best warrior (not including the primarchs and The Emperor)

what made him so great? how do other people describe his abilities, his skills as being? what did he do that others couldn't dream of doing. are there quotes, speeches or anything said or implied about his abilities in the sources?

Bellcurve.



People, even Spacemarines, differ in their skills and abilities. At one end of the curve you have the worst melee fighters, at the other you have the best. Assume the worst marine fighter is still far better than most guard. Sigismund would have been in the top 5% of melee combatants in terms of raw untrained ability. Consider how many of the other 5% would have been killed by fire before they reached the enemy lines, or died with a bolter in their hands as part of a tactical squad.

Sigismund also had aptitude at command, which means he would have been promoted fairly quickly (and handed a chainsword) This placed friendly yellow suited men between him and harm, allowing him to pick and choose his swordfights. Getting close to Dorn helped, as the Primarch is protected at all times. Suddenly he has access to officer privileges, more sparring opponents, relic level equipment. There was every opportunity to nurture his natural gifts and not get killed before he could fully train and develop them.

Not everything needs a supernatural explanation. If you want to look beyond martial ability, Sigismund had a drive and commitment that allowed him to overcome the deadliest of foes. He was also close to the first Imperial saint.

We also know the degree of effect from gene seed varies from individual to individual.

Sigismund may have been blessed with particularly high quality samples and his body may have been particularly receptive to their modifications.

The function of geneseed is basically to make a human more Primarch like. Generally it works okay, producing a typical space marine. Sometimes it works very well, producing a marine which is in a sense closer to Primarch than it is human. Think of your Abaddons, Marneuss, Cyphers and Dantes. Sigismund is one of these; perhaps even the lead example in this class of space marine.

LightKing wrote:
what were his abilities, skills that made him incredible. I have often seen many consider him the single greatest combatant in the entire history of the Astartes. Simply the best warrior (not including the primarchs and The Emperor)

what made him so great? how do other people describe his abilities, his skills as being? what did he do that others couldn't dream of doing. are there quotes, speeches or anything said or implied about his abilities in the sources?

How bout the fact that he was one of the best swordsmen Astartes ever, the guy was a beast? I mean its kind of a silly question, the real question is why are you asking that question, if you've read the HH series. I mean even after Abaddon killed him look how much respect he paid to his corpse, sending him back to terra.

after asking this question, I decided to do alot more digging on this

"Sigismund’s artistry with a sword is best summed up by the way he moved. Duellists will parry and deflect to keep themselves alive if they have the skill to do so, and if they lack that skill – or simply rely on strength to win battles – then they will lay into a fight with a longer, two-handed blade, trusting in its weight and power to overcome an enemy’s defences. Sigismund did neither of these. I never saw him simply parry a blow, for every move he made blended defence into attack. He somehow deflected Abaddon’s strikes as an after-effect of making his own attacks.

Even Telemachon, who is possibly the most gifted bladesman I have ever seen, will parry his opponent’s blows. He does it with an effortlessness that borders on inattention, something practically beneath him that he performs on instinct, but he still does it. Sigismund attacked, attacked, attacked, and he somehow deflected every blow while doing so. Aggression boiled beneath his every motion."

another quote

"the finest duellist ever to wear ceramite" and "at his best he would have rivalled any being that drew breath."

Sanguinius says he is more the "Son of Death" than a "Son of Dorn"

and Angron, freaking Angron sparred with Sigismund and respected him, saying he did better than the vast majority if not the best

its not like he is just a normal astarte, there has to be some psyker play in this

LightKing wrote:
after asking this question, I decided to do alot more digging on this

"Sigismund’s artistry with a sword is best summed up by the way he moved. Duellists will parry and deflect to keep themselves alive if they have the skill to do so, and if they lack that skill – or simply rely on strength to win battles – then they will lay into a fight with a longer, two-handed blade, trusting in its weight and power to overcome an enemy’s defences. Sigismund did neither of these. I never saw him simply parry a blow, for every move he made blended defence into attack. He somehow deflected Abaddon’s strikes as an after-effect of making his own attacks.

Even Telemachon, who is possibly the most gifted bladesman I have ever seen, will parry his opponent’s blows. He does it with an effortlessness that borders on inattention, something practically beneath him that he performs on instinct, but he still does it. Sigismund attacked, attacked, attacked, and he somehow deflected every blow while doing so. Aggression boiled beneath his every motion."

another quote

"the finest duellist ever to wear ceramite" and "at his best he would have rivalled any being that drew breath."

Sanguinius says he is more the "Son of Death" than a "Son of Dorn"

and Angron, freaking Angron sparred with Sigismund and respected him, saying he did better than the vast majority if not the best

its not like he is just a normal astarte, there has to be some psyker play in this

Have you read any of the responses in the thread so far? You're actually undercutting his ability as a warrior by trying to tack on psyker shenanigans to explain his superlative skill as a swordsman. The best comparison to another top tier fighter but who gets farther ahead due to his precognition psychic ability is Sevatar, who basically gets to see everything in slo-mo, letting him have the advantage in the vast majority of duels when you consider this is in addition to his skill. All descriptions of Sigismund, including the ones you mentioned, have little to no similarities to Sevatar's ability in combat (obvious differences including Sevatar's style being more dirty) and merely show that he's the apex of what a Space Marine COULD be in combat, when you have raw latent talent allowed to reach its full potential with Astartes physiology.

 Grimskul wrote:

LightKing wrote:
after asking this question, I decided to do alot more digging on this

"Sigismund’s artistry with a sword is best summed up by the way he moved. Duellists will parry and deflect to keep themselves alive if they have the skill to do so, and if they lack that skill – or simply rely on strength to win battles – then they will lay into a fight with a longer, two-handed blade, trusting in its weight and power to overcome an enemy’s defences. Sigismund did neither of these. I never saw him simply parry a blow, for every move he made blended defence into attack. He somehow deflected Abaddon’s strikes as an after-effect of making his own attacks.

Even Telemachon, who is possibly the most gifted bladesman I have ever seen, will parry his opponent’s blows. He does it with an effortlessness that borders on inattention, something practically beneath him that he performs on instinct, but he still does it. Sigismund attacked, attacked, attacked, and he somehow deflected every blow while doing so. Aggression boiled beneath his every motion."

another quote

"the finest duellist ever to wear ceramite" and "at his best he would have rivalled any being that drew breath."

Sanguinius says he is more the "Son of Death" than a "Son of Dorn"

and Angron, freaking Angron sparred with Sigismund and respected him, saying he did better than the vast majority if not the best

its not like he is just a normal astarte, there has to be some psyker play in this

Have you read any of the responses in the thread so far? You're actually undercutting his ability as a warrior by trying to tack on psyker shenanigans to explain his superlative skill as a swordsman. The best comparison to another top tier fighter but who gets farther ahead due to his precognition psychic ability is Sevatar, who basically gets to see everything in slo-mo, letting him have the advantage in the vast majority of duels when you consider this is in addition to his skill. All descriptions of Sigismund, including the ones you mentioned, have little to no similarities to Sevatar's ability in combat (obvious differences including Sevatar's style being more dirty) and merely show that he's the apex of what a Space Marine COULD be in combat, when you have raw latent talent allowed to reach its full potential with Astartes physiology.

actually, now that you think about it, your right... he is sort of the apex of pure skill

SIgismund actually sparred with Sevatar, and Sevatar with his pre-cognition abilities still couldn't land a blow on Siggy. in fact Sevatar had to finish the sparring match by doing a cheap headbutt on him

 =Angel= wrote:

LightKing wrote:
what were his abilities, skills that made him incredible. I have often seen many consider him the single greatest combatant in the entire history of the Astartes. Simply the best warrior (not including the primarchs and The Emperor)

what made him so great? how do other people describe his abilities, his skills as being? what did he do that others couldn't dream of doing. are there quotes, speeches or anything said or implied about his abilities in the sources?

Bellcurve.



People, even Spacemarines, differ in their skills and abilities. At one end of the curve you have the worst melee fighters, at the other you have the best. Assume the worst marine fighter is still far better than most guard. Sigismund would have been in the top 5% of melee combatants in terms of raw untrained ability. Consider how many of the other 5% would have been killed by fire before they reached the enemy lines, or died with a bolter in their hands as part of a tactical squad.

Sigismund also had aptitude at command, which means he would have been promoted fairly quickly (and handed a chainsword) This placed friendly yellow suited men between him and harm, allowing him to pick and choose his swordfights. Getting close to Dorn helped, as the Primarch is protected at all times. Suddenly he has access to officer privileges, more sparring opponents, relic level equipment. There was every opportunity to nurture his natural gifts and not get killed before he could fully train and develop them.

Not everything needs a supernatural explanation. If you want to look beyond martial ability, Sigismund had a drive and commitment that allowed him to overcome the deadliest of foes. He was also close to the first Imperial saint.

I think you have the crux of it, but it may possibly be something to do with the fist geneseed or training as they did not produce one, but two exceptional marines at the top of the bell curve, Sigismund and Alexis Polux, he was a prodigy among space marines and as his 30k entry states that some exceptional humans could be superior to space marines (Luther), some exceptional space marines could be superior to primarchs, Sigismund and Polux are two such marines, Corswain is another, Kharn, Abbadon and others.

I think it's worth putting a caveat on the above to say that some marines could be superior to primarchs in a certain aspect, such as bladework, not better all round.

phillv85 wrote:
I think it's worth putting a caveat on the above to say that some marines could be superior to primarchs in a certain aspect, such as bladework, not better all round.

I don't know man. Primarchs may have the advantage over space marines in mental and physical terms, but I feel some of them failed to really leverage those advantages.

It is arguable space marines such as Sigismund and Abaddon have outsurvived and outachieved some of the Primarchs, despite their 'inferiority'.

nareik wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
I think it's worth putting a caveat on the above to say that some marines could be superior to primarchs in a certain aspect, such as bladework, not better all round.

I don't know man. Primarchs may have the advantage over space marines in mental and physical terms, but I feel some of them failed to really leverage those advantages.

It is arguable space marines such as Sigismund and Abaddon have outsurvived and outachieved some of the Primarchs, despite their 'inferiority'.

You are right in that, some of the Primarch's chronically underachieved in some aspects when you look at their potential.

Hell turn out to be a pysker of some description.
The HH holds him in the same regards as Sanguinius. All hearsay,
I heard, I saw, He was tough and best fighter and all that, but has done nothing.
Corax sent a humie and a fleet that suffered the same as Sigismunds dreams into a grinder to get rid off him.

phillv85 wrote:
I think it's worth putting a caveat on the above to say that some marines could be superior to primarchs in a certain aspect, such as bladework, not better all round.

Yeah thats fair, I doubt Polux would be able to take on peturabo one on one but he absolutely kicked his arse when it comes to void warfare and fleet engagements.

 Formosa wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
I think it's worth putting a caveat on the above to say that some marines could be superior to primarchs in a certain aspect, such as bladework, not better all round.

Yeah thats fair, I doubt Polux would be able to take on peturabo one on one but he absolutely kicked his arse when it comes to void warfare and fleet engagements.

Not really. Not only Peturabo was up against superior force, he had no idea Sigismund would chicken out and hand the fleet command to someone else (who will then die by a fluke handing command to Pollux, who will insist on conveniently running defensive maneuver training despite protests of other leaders) rendering his whole strategy and battle planning useless. Even then, all Pollux could do was launching assassination attack on Peturabo that utterly failed both in space (Iron Blood destroying the attackers with ease) and in boarding action (Peturabo killing all involved IF again with ease). Sure, Pollux managed a draw and both fleets would have been smashed ruining Peturabo's day but overall it would still be a strategic win for the traitors.

And then of course Dorn had to butt in and managed to turn a draw into one sided slaughter by dumb email

 Irbis wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
I think it's worth putting a caveat on the above to say that some marines could be superior to primarchs in a certain aspect, such as bladework, not better all round.

Yeah thats fair, I doubt Polux would be able to take on peturabo one on one but he absolutely kicked his arse when it comes to void warfare and fleet engagements.

Not really. Not only Peturabo was up against superior force, he had no idea Sigismund would chicken out and hand the fleet command to someone else (who will then die by a fluke handing command to Pollux, who will insist on conveniently running defensive maneuver training despite protests of other leaders) rendering his whole strategy and battle planning useless. Even then, all Pollux could do was launching assassination attack on Peturabo that utterly failed both in space (Iron Blood destroying the attackers with ease) and in boarding action (Peturabo killing all involved IF again with ease). Sure, Pollux managed a draw and both fleets would have been smashed ruining Peturabo's day but overall it would still be a strategic win for the traitors.

And then of course Dorn had to butt in and managed to turn a draw into one sided slaughter by dumb email

I dont know what book you read but Polux had an INFERIOR force, not superior, Peturabo pretty much says himself that Polux had him and had he not been forced to retreat by following orders to return to terra then the Iron blood was dead, even a primarch can only survive so much and a constant reinforcement onto the iron blood would have had him, the Iron Warriors categorically lost that battle and only survived because the Fists chose to leave.

could maybe Valdor be above Siggy?

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Inferno-spread2.jpg

it mentions that Valdor's martial power was only second to the primarchs themselves

honestly once you get to a certain skill level it's hard to say people like to think that in combat there's some sort of magic power ranking where X can always win agaisnt Y etc, but thats not actually how it works. fights, especially on a battlefield are often confusing messy affairs where a whole hsot of factors come into play (including dumb luck) it's possiable Sigsmund and Valdor could both beat one another, situations and luck dependng. Just because we've seen one character beat another doesn't mean he will garenteed win the next time they fight.