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2019/05/23 12:03:42
Subject: Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Glasgow
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Yes a model of a rhino is a rhino we can all agree that
But that model in
Sm
Ba
SIsters of battle
Sisters of silence
All have different datasheets they are not interchangeable even though they have the same name and 95% same rules
Note their are some exception i beleives there is a AM crusader/deamon prince snowlakeruleing in faq/CA18
It is implied that when the flow chart refers to a model it is referring to a faction specific model and not that same model in any codex.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/23 12:05:28
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2019/05/23 12:09:13
Subject: Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Yes,
and all of those examples have different keywords, names, abilities and the fact that they are all in a codex. In fact, they do not have the same names, nor do they have the same keywords. What makes those datasheets different options is the fact they are both different and are in codexes, not indexes .
As the the flow chart shows, if it appears in a codex it supersedes the index . It mentions nothing about what faction the datasheet is listed under... unless you have a reference ?
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As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
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2019/05/23 12:12:54
Subject: Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Glasgow
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Sisters of silence does not have a codex
Sisters of battle have a beta codex that may not be legal in your event if its not then the index is the entry you use not the SM or BA which do have codexs
Yes keywords are often different between factions thats why you don't overwrite their datasheets with other factions datasheets because they are in a codex thats common sense.
However if you take a litteral RAW interpretation of the designers flowchart thats exactly what you do.
Of course taking that interpretaion it doesnt explain whether you would use the BA or the SM version but given your SoB or SoS have to take a model with keywords they cant use thats the least of your problems.
It also the same reason that it is implied that the designers flowchart is faction specific because if it is referring to the physical model you cross polinate several index entries and then cant use your model in your own faction.
So the litteral RAW doean't work however implying a little common sense and accepting that it is implied that the model being referred to but a faction specific model you don't have any of these problems.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/23 12:23:24
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2019/05/23 12:16:02
Subject: Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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No, the sisters of silence datasheet have a "Null Maiden Rhino"
amd the sisters of battle have a "soritos rhino" and both have different keywords...
Not the same datasheet.
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As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
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2019/05/23 12:29:13
Subject: Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Glasgow
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Most armies do have codexs now your going to struggle for overlap at this point and without going to my books i cant think of many examples
Crusaders in SoB if your not running beta codexs being one
So an example not the best
However the point around process stands. it just means that most of the time the question is does it have a codex answer =yes. Astro telepathica is anomoly precisely because as a faction it doesnt have a codex.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/23 12:30:04
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2019/05/23 12:38:02
Subject: Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The flow chart does NOT say "does this models faction have a codex" it DOES says "does this model have a data sheet in a codex"
If both the name AND the keywords wern't exactly the same. I would agree with you. Then you check to see if the model was replaced for the faction.
however, they are exactly the same
Its clearly written in the flow chart and says NOTHING about the model somehow being tied to the faction.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unless it does somewhere and I am missing it ?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/23 12:38:19
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
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2019/05/23 12:53:32
Subject: Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Glasgow
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As said multiple times its implied because otherwise you ended up with a lot of cascadeing between codexs which didnt work prior to those codexs releases. Sure its less of an issue now because almost all units have codexs but the process hasnt changed.
Some times a bit like assault weapons you have to apply a little common sense. It was not intented for datasheets in one codex to overide datasheets in other factions even if they are the same model.
Your argument that primaris psykers are a special case because the datasheets are similar doeant change the process nor does it change that astro telepathica have their own points system distinct to AM because they are a different faction.
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2019/05/23 12:56:47
Subject: Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Are you also then suggesting that everything from the index
"HERETIC ASTARTES ARMY LIST" has not been replaced and is legal to play because CHAOS SPACE MARINES is a completely different codex ?
Is Heretic Astartes - Abadon the desploiler a different datasheet from Chaos Space Marines - Abadon the despoiler ? and everything else in that codex / index are different playable datasheets ?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or are they same because the keywords and names were overwritten by this new army list ?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
If I make a world eaters detatchment, can I use the old datasheet for Abbadon ? and other similar situations ?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or how about the old Questor Imperialis index List, are they inherently different from the Imperial Knights codex army lists ? Can I make a detatchment using those ?
Maybe even a Skitari index list, different from the Adeptus mechanicus codex army list ?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
or do models Datasheets get replaced by datasheets that appear in a codex like the FAQ and flow chart say ?
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This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2019/05/23 13:11:26
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
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2019/05/23 13:14:39
Subject: Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Glasgow
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I dont have the chaos codexs or indexs so I am not aware of the foreword most codexs at their opening rules page tell you which indexs they replace i am assuming the chaos space marine codex foreword informs you specifically what what it replaces.
Assuming it works like regular adeptus astartes as a unifying keyword.
Your models are taken from the codex or index entry as a appropriate to the flow chart
Their is no adeptus astartes faction or pts system. The datasheets in the index are all within specific subfactions
model 1 Space marine librarian Codex SM model 2 rune priest Codex SW. Units 3-5 BA scout squad + sgt with storm bolter
So for models 1-2 you follow does the space marine librarian have a codex entry yes so use that
Does the rune priest yes so you use that
Does the ba scout squad yes but the sgt has index only equipment so you follow the flow chart to work out its points.
Essentially your following the flow chart for each model the BA models will be charged according to the ba codex/index and sm models the sm codex etc....
Astro telepathica is a faction with its own points system/rules in the index adeptus astartes does not and is not a faction (although it can be an army keyword) and so often behaves as one.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/23 13:17:33
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2019/05/23 13:16:19
Subject: Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I could tell my opponent, oh no, I am using the index list for my Lord Commissar because he is in OFFICIO PREFECTUS detachment and they didn't actually release a codex for that army list, and it was presented as an army list in the Index.
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As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
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2019/05/23 13:18:57
Subject: Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Glasgow
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Because you added it later the questor imperialis is explicitly answered in the foreword to imperial knights codex.
You cannot make a battleforged skittari list at present they have no HQ.
Asside from that you could make a skittarii list but the models are taken from the adwptus mechanicus faction and the flow chart tells you to use the codex
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/23 13:21:48
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2019/05/23 13:19:34
Subject: Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Can I have a refrence page to that forward, really thats all I have been asking for this entire time ?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Because you added it later the questor imperialis is explicitly answered in the foreword to imperial knights codex.
You cannot make a battleforged skittari list at present they have no HQ.
Asside from that you could make a skittarii list but the models are taken from the adwptus mechanicus faction and the flow chart tells you to use the codex
I could have a list with a skittari auxilary detatchment that wouldn't break battleforge.
And your right, the flow chart tells us to use the codex for the primaris psyker as well... where doesn't it say to do that ?
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/05/23 13:25:24
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
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2019/05/23 13:25:41
Subject: Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Glasgow
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 Type40 wrote:I could tell my opponent, oh no, I am using the index list for my Lord Commissar because he is in OFFICIO PREFECTUS detachment and they didn't actually release a codex for that army list, and it was presented as an army list in the Index.
Incorrect the officio prefectus was a sub section of the astra militarum index faction and as such the flow chart tells you to use the codex entry as the model has a more recent datasheet.
However you could run an officio prefectus detatchment if you wished
Had officio prefectus been a seperate section of the index with its own points system then yes. Automatically Appended Next Post: Type40 wrote:Can I have a refrence page to that forward, really thats all I have been asking for this entire time ?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Because you added it later the questor imperialis is explicitly answered in the foreword to imperial knights codex.
You cannot make a battleforged skittari list at present they have no HQ.
Asside from that you could make a skittarii list but the models are taken from the adwptus mechanicus faction and the flow chart tells you to use the codex
I could have a list with a skittari auxilary detatchment that wouldn't break battleforge.
And your right, the flow chart tells us to use the codex for the primaris psyker as well... where doesn't it say to do that ?
Good point i forgot the auxilary detatchment however you are either useing the codex entry for points because skittarii are a subsection of the admech faction and admech have a codex Automatically Appended Next Post: I dont have my book on me but litterally it is the first rules page that outlines that
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/23 13:29:28
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2019/05/23 13:29:47
Subject: Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I still don't see anywhere that outlines which index the codex's are replacing other than the flow chart that says to replace a models index if it exists in a codex...
Just saying, I might start using index rules for a ton of stuff if it actually works this way. I ll just make detachments from the index army lists that didn't get their own dedicated codex. Its going to be great and incredibly cheesy.
But before I can do that, I need to see a reference that shows what you are saying is actually true ?Otherwise its pretty obvious that the FAQ wants you to replace datasheets that get updated in a codex.
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As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
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2019/05/23 13:30:43
Subject: Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Horrific Hive Tyrant
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U02dah4 wrote: Type40 wrote:I could tell my opponent, oh no, I am using the index list for my Lord Commissar because he is in OFFICIO PREFECTUS detachment and they didn't actually release a codex for that army list, and it was presented as an army list in the Index.
Incorrect the officio prefectus was a sub section of the astra militarum index faction and as such the flow chart tells you to use the codex entry as the model has a more recent datasheet.
However you could run an officio prefectus detatchment if you wished
Had officio prefectus been a seperate section of the index with its own points system then yes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Type40 wrote:Can I have a refrence page to that forward, really thats all I have been asking for this entire time ?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Because you added it later the questor imperialis is explicitly answered in the foreword to imperial knights codex.
You cannot make a battleforged skittari list at present they have no HQ.
Asside from that you could make a skittarii list but the models are taken from the adwptus mechanicus faction and the flow chart tells you to use the codex
I could have a list with a skittari auxilary detatchment that wouldn't break battleforge.
And your right, the flow chart tells us to use the codex for the primaris psyker as well... where doesn't it say to do that ?
Good point i forgot the auxilary detatchment however you are either useing the codex entry for points because skittarii are a subsection of the admech faction and admech have a codex
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I dont have my book on me but litterally it is the first rules page that outlines that
This is all well and good, but it is an arbitrary standard you have created. There's nothing in the rules drawing a distinction about sub sections of the index.
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2019/05/23 13:35:00
Subject: Re:Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Incorrect the officio prefectus was a sub section of the astra militarum index faction and as such the flow chart tells you to use the codex entry as the model has a more recent datasheet.
However you could run an officio prefectus detatchment if you wished
Had officio prefectus been a seperate section of the index with its own points system then yes
WRONG Officio Prefectus is under the SAME sub-heading in index: Imperial 2 as Adeptus Astra Telepthica !
I am looking at it right now !
So what is it ! ? can I make my Officio Prefectus detatchments with the old datasheets then ? you just said I could !
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As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
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2019/05/23 13:38:43
Subject: Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Glasgow
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It sounds like you are confusing
Factions- have their own keywords, index sections and or codexs points and rules
Blood angel
Space marine
Adeptus mechanicus
Elucidean Starstriders
With faction keywords - which tell you what models you can take together in a detatchment
Officio prefectus
Adeptus astartes
Skittari
All factions have faction keywords not all faction keywords represent indepent factions in their own right.
Astro telepathica have their own distinct section in an index with their own points the sub factions dont their points and rules are included within the faction/s their units came from
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2019/05/23 13:43:05
Subject: Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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You mean keywords like "ASTRA MILITARUM" ?
or "Imperial Knights"
or in the case of the index a different list called "QUESTOR IMPERIALIS"
Which "Imperial Knights" clearly replaced ?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I cant claim my detatchment is going by the index rules for "Questor Imperialis" even though I can create a battleforged list arround that keyword.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/23 13:43:52
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
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2019/05/23 13:49:07
Subject: Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Glasgow
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Read the forword to the imperial knights
Because you cant read and im starting to yawn
The IK codex is clear that their is one keyword for knights which either means questor mechanicus or questor imperialis
All knights have one of these keywords
Both are subfactions they dont have codexs
Imperial knights is the faction and the flow chart tells you to use the rules in the codex
So yes you can use questor imperialis but you are useing the codex datasheets
Again you seem to be confusing index/codex factions with faction keywords
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/23 13:55:42
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2019/05/23 13:49:55
Subject: Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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p.s. their is no mention of "factions" in the flow chart...
so,,, until you find me a reference that actually says that plays a part in determining if a "models" datasheet is in a code... its pretty clear your breaking the rules for an 8 pt advantage.
The flow chart is quite clear. And literally no where in the rules does it say "replace this models datasheet if their FACTION has datasheet in a FACTION codex"
replace the datasheet if the model has an entry in A codex. It doesn't say what codex, it doesn't care about what faction they were in the index, some factions completely changed the name of their army list. It is checking one thing. Does this model have an entry in A codex... If the answer is YES you use that datasheet.
Again unless there is some rule out their that either says a model is different because its in a different faction, or the flow chart applies not to any codex but rather it applies to faction specific codex's.
There is a reason why all those rhinos have different keywords and the primaris psyker did not.
Automatically Appended Next Post: U02dah4 wrote:Read the forword to the imperial knights astra militarum codexs it tells you what rules it covers.
Whats the page number because I have read page 3 like 4 times... and havn't found what you claim is there .
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/23 13:51:21
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
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2019/05/23 13:54:29
Subject: Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers
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Honest question: When did it become possible to include anything in a SoS Vanguard but SoS? I thought there were no HQ that fit with them?
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2019/05/23 13:57:03
Subject: Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:Honest question: When did it become possible to include anything in a SoS Vanguard but SoS? I thought there were no HQ that fit with them?
The primaris psyker shares the ASTRA TELEPATHICA keyword with them.
 so they can be taken together and still be battleforged disregarding the imperial keyword.
The argument that has commenced is whether or not you have to take the new Primaris Psyker datasheet from the Astra Militarum codex, or if you can go back and used the one from the ASTRA TELEPATHICA index (as the detatchment is an ASTRA TELEPATHICA detatchment)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/23 13:58:11
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
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2019/05/23 13:57:54
Subject: Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Glasgow
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Their isnt but all SoS have the astro telepathic keyword
As do primaris psykers astropaths and wyrdvane psykers
The SoS have a rule that says they can be taken without an HQ but you gain no CP but you can still take them with the primaris psyker as the HQ and gain 1
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2019/05/23 14:02:48
Subject: Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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All I see in the Knights Introduction is that it gives the rules for creating an Imperial Knights army.
Unfortunately for your argument, there is no such thing as an Imperial Knights army list in the Index, nor is there even an Imperial Knights keyword.
So by your logic, I can take a Questor Imperialis detatchment using the old datasheets, as they never created an Questor Imperialis codex. They created a different codex and included "similar but different" models in it.
Just like they never made a Astra Telepathica codex but they did make another codex that is using Astra Militarum and included the primaris psyker it.
In fact, there are MORE differences between the Knights codex and the Questor Imperialis index army list datasheets, they even have different keywords, army list title, and stats, must be extra true for them.
Unless I am really missing this forward you keep talking about.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/05/23 14:05:16
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
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2019/05/23 14:10:06
Subject: Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Glasgow
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Hence their is a difference between faction and keywords well done we are nearly their
Now you have the instruction for how to work out what a faction keyword is e.g. taranis adeptus mechanicus , imperial knights imperium
Now to work out the faction its real easy close the book look at the cover and pretend the word codex isn't there
And low and behold we find imperial knights are a faction.
It is now only a small leap of understanding to realise that the flowchart lets you take those index datashrets and replace them new ones because imperial knights is the faction
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Of course your welcolm to stick to your guns that imperial knights isnt a faction but at that point youve lost the argument Even BCB would ackowledge imperial knights are a faction.
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This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2019/05/23 14:17:29
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2019/05/23 14:20:06
Subject: Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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GREAT
So Imperial Knights DO NOT HAVE AN ARMY LIST IN THE INDEX.
What is in the index is QUESTOR IMPERIALIS
What you are sugesting is that QUESTIOR IMPERIALS is a faction on its own because it does not have its own codex.
I can read the cover over and over and over again.
it still doesn't magically put them into the index.
The same is true with HERRITIC ASTARTES and CHAOS SPACE MARINES.
Either we acknowledge that the IMPERIAL KNIGHTS codex replaced the datasheets in the QUESTOR IMPERIALIS army list of the index or we do not. QUESTOR IMPERIALIS became a subfaction when a different faction was released and used it as such.
If we do acknowledge that, then it is clear that the army list that something belongs too in the index has no bearing on whether or not a model has been replaced in a codex with a different faction name, that regressed the old faction name into a subfaction.
Or we decide that they didn't do thisand allow other people the same advantage by taking a detachment of QUESTER IMPERIALS and let them use the datasheets from the index because QUESTER IMPERIALS was its own faction in the index and thus the models are different.
This is literately the same thing. Primaris Psyker has the Astra Militarum keyword and the Astra telepathica keyword. So either the ASTRA MILITARUM codex supercedes the ASTRA TELEPATHICA army list in index (like the IMPERIAL KNIGHTS DID FOR THE QUESTOR MECHANICUS) or it does not.
You don't get to have it both ways.
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p.s. there is also literately no rules pertaining to different weighted keywords that are factions/sub-factions etc other then what is out lined in the Battle Brothers rules... so your going to need a reference for that.
The only clear rule is that if a model gets an entry in a codex, you replace the datasheet. It can't be any more clear. No mater how you try to swindle it. Unless you can point to some reference that says otherwise.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/23 14:23:14
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
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2019/05/23 14:24:29
Subject: Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Horrific Hive Tyrant
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There is no general game definition of Faction though. You are creating one.
There are faction keywords. There are also some special specific definitions within codexes such as Imperial Knights. But there is no definition of an Astra Telepathica army.
It really feels like you have decided your conclusion and are creating rules that don't exist to support it.
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2019/05/23 14:28:32
Subject: Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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 Stux wrote:There is no general game definition of Faction though. You are creating one.
There are faction keywords. There are also some special specific definitions within codexes such as Imperial Knights. But there is no definition of an Astra Telepathica army.
It really feels like you have decided your conclusion and are creating rules that don't exist to support it.
Agreed !
Astra Telepathica is as much of a Faction keyword as any other faction keyword that appears on that line (with the exception of the battle brothers rules, but that is irrelevant to this).
Deciding some mean more then others is not in the rules, at least none that I can find, so until I have a reference, its pretty clear the flow chart intends for you to replace the datasheet.
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As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
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2019/05/23 14:40:13
Subject: Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Glasgow
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So in conclusion I assert that myself and battlescribe agree astro telepathica are their own faction having their own section and points in the index.
So you can use their own faction rules and points in an astro telepathica detatchment but not in an astra militarum detatchment where you would need to use the codex version due to the designers flowchart.
I interpret the designers flowchart as being model and faction specific because otherwise prior to the release of all the codexs you had a lot of problems with a model having a datasheet overwriteing other factions rules because of models feature in more than one faction with the same name and a litteral RAW interpretation would have resulted in some factions models getting keywords they couldnt use
You disagree with me because the sheets are similar and in justifying your decision you have come to the decision imperial knights are not a faction questor imperialis are and that their is no questor imperialis codex so index datasheets are not overwritten. I conclude that A you can't read B you are self evidently wrong and C need to apply a tiny amount of common sense. Codex imperial knights replaces the questor imparialis section of the index it explains the interaction in keywords in the forword at the start of the rules section of the codex
However I am not going to argue with you anymore as you have nothing substantive to back your position it causes a lot of problems with cross polination and your conclusion about imperial knights while RAW is entirely out there ..... and predicated on you struggleing to differentiate faction and keywords due to a litteral RAW interpretation.
We are not going to agree and I suspect noone will support your position of codex imperial knights not replaceing their codex equivalents
We are not going to agree
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Type40 wrote: Stux wrote:There is no general game definition of Faction though. You are creating one.
There are faction keywords. There are also some special specific definitions within codexes such as Imperial Knights. But there is no definition of an Astra Telepathica army.
It really feels like you have decided your conclusion and are creating rules that don't exist to support it.
Agreed !
Astra Telepathica is as much of a Faction keyword as any other faction keyword that appears on that line (with the exception of the battle brothers rules, but that is irrelevant to this).
Deciding some mean more then others is not in the rules, at least none that I can find, so until I have a reference, its pretty clear the flow chart intends for you to replace the datasheet.
Take space marine and adeptus astartes
Or adeptus mechanicus and skitarii
It is clear the codex the rules come from. Their is no adeptus astartes or skitarii codexs or indexs.
They are factions from what can go in your army perspective but they dont have seperate codexs or their own distinct rules and points values
Astra telepthica does have a seperate index entry and that puts it in line with space marines, BA and Adeptus Mechanicus rather than adeptus astartes or skitarii but i ackowledge you have to apply common sense as GW make no RAW definition between the two
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/05/23 14:50:09
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2019/05/23 14:59:13
Subject: Primaris Psyker with Sisters of Silence and Astra Militarum Strategems
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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U02dah4 wrote:So in conclusion I assert that myself and battlescribe agree astro telepathica are their own faction having their own section and points in the index.
So you can use their own faction rules and points in an astro telepathica detatchment but not in an astra militarum detatchment where you would need to use the codex version due to the designers flowchart.
I interpret the designers flowchart as being model and faction specific because otherwise prior to the release of all the codexs you had a lot of problems with a model having a datasheet overwriteing other factions rules because of models feature in more than one faction with the same name and a litteral RAW interpretation would have resulted in some factions models getting keywords they couldnt use
You disagree with me because the sheets are similar and in justifying your decision you have come to the decision imperial knights are not a faction questor imperialis are and that their is no questor imperialis codex so index datasheets are not overwritten. I conclude that A you can't read B you are self evidently wrong and C need to apply a tiny amount of common sense. Codex imperial knights replaces the questor imparialis section of the index it explains the interaction in keywords in the forword at the start of the rules section of the codex
However I am not going to argue with you anymore as you have nothing substantive to back your position it causes a lot of problems with cross polination and your conclusion about imperial knights while RAW is entirely out there ..... and predicated on you struggleing to differentiate faction and keywords due to a litteral RAW interpretation.
We are not going to agree and I suspect noone will support your position of codex imperial knights not replaceing their codex equivalents
We are not going to agree
I think what is clear here is this
I interpret the designers flowchart as being model and faction specific because otherwise prior to the release of all the codexs you had a lot of problems with a model having a datasheet overwriteing other factions rules because of models feature in more than one faction with the same name and a litteral RAW interpretation would have resulted in some factions models getting keywords they couldnt use
You are interpreting something that is not written.
You are adding rules that do not exists to get yourself a small point advantage.
Second
you have come to the decision imperial knights are not a faction questor imperialis are and that their is no questor imperialis codex
I do not think this. I point out the absurdy of your assertation by using this example because it uses the same logic you are using to get the advantage. If we apply the "rule" you are implying exists, then my absurd example would be true. Even though no such rule exists.
Third
feature in more than one faction with the same name and a litteral RAW interpretation would have resulted in some factions models getting keywords they couldnt use
this is simply untrue.
GW has been vary careful to use different names for things like different factions rhinos (Null Maiden Rhino, Rhino, Chaos Rhino, Soritos Rhino and etc) or upon the release of the SM rhino including <variable> keywords so it would be able to be used by other factions. Or the CSM doing the same thing with <variable> keywords. The first releases of these things in Codex have ALL had these variable keywords, so you could take them and still be battle forged (not to mention in the early days of 8th this was as easy as the having the faction keyword of "IMPERIAL" a lot of the time). The same has been true with other similar things, like land raiders.
There has never been a point where replacing a model from the index with a new codex entries datasheet has stopped a faction from having access to it.
The simple rule is,
If it exists in a codex, it replaces the index. If multiples exist in multiple codex then you have options but the index entry is forever gone. That's what the FAQ says, there is no way around that. your insertion that factions would have been left out is just plain wrong, that has never happened, and if it would I am sure it would have been errata very quick.
You can't just make up new rules so that it works the way you want it to, (unless your opponent agrees of course). But that is that.
So I am sorry, without adding rules that don't exists, what you are saying is incorrect.
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As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
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