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This edition is the first edition where a Lascannon doesn't have a chance to blow up most tanks in a single hit, I think. That's a funny counterpoint to the theory of "everything can hut everything".

The Newman wrote:
Regardless of what is "realistic" there's also the little matters of game balance and good play experiences to consider. Two man-portable AT guns reliably taking a transport off the table pushes armor out of the meta altogether and the game is already too lethal as it is, making that bad play experience even worse isn't going to help things.

A 3.2% chance for two lascannons wielding by space marines costing 76pts (not counting the rest of the attached squad(s) to kill a 70~ point rhino is reliable now? I must be playing the game wrong.

That aside, I agree that player experience is important. Which is why I'm fine with not going back to 5th edition's parking lot.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Regardless of what is "realistic" there's also the little matters of game balance and good play experiences to consider. Two man-portable AT guns reliably taking a transport off the table pushes armor out of the meta altogether and the game is already too lethal as it is, making that bad play experience even worse isn't going to help things.

A 3.2% chance for two lascannons wielding by space marines costing 76pts (not counting the rest of the attached squad(s) to kill a 70~ point rhino is reliable now? I must be playing the game wrong.

That aside, I agree that player experience is important. Which is why I'm fine with not going back to 5th edition's parking lot.

I was commenting on the latest back-and-forth regarding what a man-portable AT gun ought to be capable of. One commentor said two shots from such a gun should be dropping an APC, I said you'd never see armor on the table at all if that were the case.

Although sometimes "the game is too lethal as it is" rings a little hollow when it takes me 14+ Lascannon shots to drop a Hive Tyrant.

But you currently have that now? A Rhino is 12 wounds, which is two shots from a Lascannon or a missile launcher? Granted it's improbable, but not impossible.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
But you currently have that now? A Rhino is 12 wounds, which is two shots from a Lascannon or a missile launcher? Granted it's improbable, but not impossible.

No, the poster I was originally responding to said that two Lascannon hits should reliably drop an APC.. They don't, and they probably shouldn't.

The Newman wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
But you currently have that now? A Rhino is 12 wounds, which is two shots from a Lascannon or a missile launcher? Granted it's improbable, but not impossible.

No, the poster I was originally responding to said that two Lascannon hits should reliably drop an APC.. They don't, and they probably shouldn't.

Ah, my mistake was in the consistency. I don't think 8th would do well if one Twin-linked LC shot took down Rhino's with 51% probability. However, I would like to see a game where it does. Because as is, we toss around too many AT weapons in this game with ZERO affect. Melta's should be flat 6 damage. Multi-Meltas should be able to oneshot a Rhino reliably for the cost/range. Tank weaponry should have a huge damage affect against all targets. Right now it takes way too much attacking to kill anything realistically.

The Newman wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Regardless of what is "realistic" there's also the little matters of game balance and good play experiences to consider. Two man-portable AT guns reliably taking a transport off the table pushes armor out of the meta altogether and the game is already too lethal as it is, making that bad play experience even worse isn't going to help things.

A 3.2% chance for two lascannons wielding by space marines costing 76pts (not counting the rest of the attached squad(s) to kill a 70~ point rhino is reliable now? I must be playing the game wrong.

That aside, I agree that player experience is important. Which is why I'm fine with not going back to 5th edition's parking lot.

I was commenting on the latest back-and-forth regarding what a man-portable AT gun ought to be capable of. One commentor said two shots from such a gun should be dropping an APC, I said you'd never see armor on the table at all if that were the case.

Although sometimes "the game is too lethal as it is" rings a little hollow when it takes me 14+ Lascannon shots to drop a Hive Tyrant.

I've always thought the manport version should be D3 wounds. It's a smaller, portable version of the full tank mounted weapon. It shouldn't be able to draw the power of its big brother.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


Ah, my mistake was in the consistency. I don't think 8th would do well if one Twin-linked LC shot took down Rhino's with 51% probability. However, I would like to see a game where it does. Because as is, we toss around too many AT weapons in this game with ZERO affect. Melta's should be flat 6 damage. Multi-Meltas should be able to oneshot a Rhino reliably for the cost/range. Tank weaponry should have a huge damage affect against all targets. Right now it takes way too much attacking to kill anything realistically.

You want a ~20 point gun to vaporize a ~70 point model?

Yeah that's balance right there.

Sterling191 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


Ah, my mistake was in the consistency. I don't think 8th would do well if one Twin-linked LC shot took down Rhino's with 51% probability. However, I would like to see a game where it does. Because as is, we toss around too many AT weapons in this game with ZERO affect. Melta's should be flat 6 damage. Multi-Meltas should be able to oneshot a Rhino reliably for the cost/range. Tank weaponry should have a huge damage affect against all targets. Right now it takes way too much attacking to kill anything realistically.

You want a ~20 point gun to vaporize a ~70 point model?

Yeah that's balance right there.

Points don't indicate Balance. And the gun isn't the cost. The UNIT holding the gun is the cost. And a squad of Tac Marines with a Multi-melta vaporizing a Rhino isn't that bad.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


Ah, my mistake was in the consistency. I don't think 8th would do well if one Twin-linked LC shot took down Rhino's with 51% probability. However, I would like to see a game where it does. Because as is, we toss around too many AT weapons in this game with ZERO affect. Melta's should be flat 6 damage. Multi-Meltas should be able to oneshot a Rhino reliably for the cost/range. Tank weaponry should have a huge damage affect against all targets. Right now it takes way too much attacking to kill anything realistically.

You want a ~20 point gun to vaporize a ~70 point model?

Yeah that's balance right there.

Points don't indicate Balance. And the gun isn't the cost. The UNIT holding the gun is the cost. And a squad of Tac Marines with a Multi-melta vaporizing a Rhino isn't that bad.

I agree about the points.

My friends and I spent the weekend playing games at power level instead of matched play points. We had a great time playing, list construction was far less rigid, and the games felt a lot more balanced and fun. Very thematic and we had some unexpected results.

You do understand that Tacs arent remotely the only unit that can pack a multi-melta right? And how do you plan to adjust weapon scaling on say, the Warglaive, Devil Dog, or Crusader (just to name a few melta weapons that make the multi-melta look like a popgun).

How about Fusion Cannons and their evolutions? Tyranid bio weapons? Eldar blasters and fusion guns?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Togusa wrote:


My friends and I spent the weekend playing games at power level instead of matched play points. We had a great time playing, list construction was far less rigid, and the games felt a lot more balanced and fun. Very thematic and we had some unexpected results.

The shenanigans you can pull abusing power levels makes current points valuations look like perfection.

I thought lascannons were supposed to be really advanced anti tank technology which is why marines have so much of them compared to guard.

 fraser1191 wrote:
I thought lascannons were supposed to be really advanced anti tank technology which is why marines have so much of them compared to guard.

The fluff isn't massively consistent on the power of weapons.
Also much like lasguns and bolters the fluff breaks lascannons into multiple patterns of lascannons like I'm sure landraider lascannons are supposed to be a class or two up from even predator or russ class lascannons. Yet the game treats them as the same.

Sterling191 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


Ah, my mistake was in the consistency. I don't think 8th would do well if one Twin-linked LC shot took down Rhino's with 51% probability. However, I would like to see a game where it does. Because as is, we toss around too many AT weapons in this game with ZERO affect. Melta's should be flat 6 damage. Multi-Meltas should be able to oneshot a Rhino reliably for the cost/range. Tank weaponry should have a huge damage affect against all targets. Right now it takes way too much attacking to kill anything realistically.

You want a ~20 point gun to vaporize a ~70 point model?

Yeah that's balance right there.

The percent discrepancy between a 25 point Lascannon and a 70ish point Rhino is a lot lower than the percent discrepancy between a 1 point Bolter and a 13 point Marine. What the gun costs can't really be directly compared to the cost of what it can kill like that.

Honestly, if you are dumb enough to park your Rhino within Melta range of a unit with Meltas in it, you deserve your fate, sod the points.

And Lascannons are designed to be the counter to Heavy Vehicles for infantry heavy armies. Points have literally nothing to do with this. It's like saying a Leadership 6 unit shouldn't be able to take down a tank.

That being said, no one takes Meltas, and opposing players have no fear of running roughshod and charging infantry lines.

I love watching a player who thinks he's hot lose a tank to a melta he forgot about, because who check's for melta's in 8th? It's Plasma or go home.

Togusa wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


Ah, my mistake was in the consistency. I don't think 8th would do well if one Twin-linked LC shot took down Rhino's with 51% probability. However, I would like to see a game where it does. Because as is, we toss around too many AT weapons in this game with ZERO affect. Melta's should be flat 6 damage. Multi-Meltas should be able to oneshot a Rhino reliably for the cost/range. Tank weaponry should have a huge damage affect against all targets. Right now it takes way too much attacking to kill anything realistically.

You want a ~20 point gun to vaporize a ~70 point model?

Yeah that's balance right there.

Points don't indicate Balance. And the gun isn't the cost. The UNIT holding the gun is the cost. And a squad of Tac Marines with a Multi-melta vaporizing a Rhino isn't that bad.

I agree about the points.

My friends and I spent the weekend playing games at power level instead of matched play points. We had a great time playing, list construction was far less rigid, and the games felt a lot more balanced and fun. Very thematic and we had some unexpected results.

Melta stuff should be able to reliably jack up/destroy most armour with the tradeoff of short range & expense.

SHHHHHH you said the naughty PL word, you know what happens when its uttered. But it is fun when playing wysiwyg and amongst others who dont minmax/cheese/spam.

The Newman wrote:


The percent discrepancy between a 25 point Lascannon and a 70ish point Rhino is a lot lower than the percent discrepancy between a 1 point Bolter and a 13 point Marine. What the gun costs can't really be directly compared to the cost of what it can kill like that.

Percent discrepancies get even more hilarious when you use, say, a zero point weapon. But then you already knew that when you tried to bring a relative skew argument into play using a one point piece of wargear.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Honestly, if you are dumb enough to park your Rhino within Melta range of a unit with Meltas in it, you deserve your fate, sod the points.

And Lascannons are designed to be the counter to Heavy Vehicles for infantry heavy armies. Points have literally nothing to do with this. It's like saying a Leadership 6 unit shouldn't be able to take down a tank.

That being said, no one takes Meltas, and opposing players have no fear of running roughshod and charging infantry lines.

I love watching a player who thinks he's hot lose a tank to a melta he forgot about, because who check's for melta's in 8th? It's Plasma or go home.

Right...because mobility shenanigans arent a thing in 8th apparently.

But by all means please continue your nonsensical arguments about how a single infantry portable weapon should be able to one-shot a tank because you don't like how AT works this edition.

Removed - BrookM

Removed - BrookM

Lets be nice people.

It is clear that most weapons could use price adjustments based on their effectiveness. Plus being targeted by a weapon has almost nothing to do with you in this edition. Units can move the entire table length in a single turn but we have guns with a range of 12"....

 Insectum7 wrote:
This edition is the first edition where a Lascannon doesn't have a chance to blow up most tanks in a single hit, I think. That's a funny counterpoint to the theory of "everything can hut everything".

But it's also the first edition where tanks are also legitimately scared of Lascannons.

In the past, a Lascannon had a 1/6 chance of penetrating and then a 1/3 chance of wrecking or exploding the vehicle. If the vehicle was in cover, it had an additional 4+ save.

This edition, Lascannons have been promoted to premier tank breaker tier, and wound all non-titans 2/3 of the time, and going through the save 5/6 of the time to deal damage.

Sterling191 wrote:

The Newman wrote:


The percent discrepancy between a 25 point Lascannon and a 70ish point Rhino is a lot lower than the percent discrepancy between a 1 point Bolter and a 13 point Marine. What the gun costs can't really be directly compared to the cost of what it can kill like that.

Percent discrepancies get even more hilarious when you use, say, a zero point weapon. But then you already knew that when you tried to bring a relative skew argument into play using a one point piece of wargear.

That's not really a skew argument, Marines are something a Bolter regularly kills. Comparing a 1 point Bolter in rapid fire range to a 33 point Terminator, now that would be a skew argument. And it doesn't change whether I'm wrong or not, the point value of a gun is not a solid indicator of how many points of enemy models you should expect it to kill in a turn, or even what it's kill total might be on a good turn.

Okay people, posts have been cleaned up and warnings have been issued. Kindly remember that Rule #1, to be polite to one another, is not optional.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
This edition is the first edition where a Lascannon doesn't have a chance to blow up most tanks in a single hit, I think. That's a funny counterpoint to the theory of "everything can hut everything".

But it's also the first edition where tanks are also legitimately scared of Lascannons.

In the past, a Lascannon had a 1/6 chance of penetrating and then a 1/3 chance of wrecking or exploding the vehicle. If the vehicle was in cover, it had an additional 4+ save.

This edition, Lascannons have been promoted to premier tank breaker tier, and wound all non-titans 2/3 of the time, and going through the save 5/6 of the time to deal damage.

The biggest issue with AT this edition is

Having on a 4+ a 28% chance of doing D6 damage per hit is not great compaired to multi shot weapons.

A 4+ dissy cannon has a 14% chance of doing 2D, but with 3 shots.

A 4+ Dark Lance vrs T8 3+ 25% chance of doing D6 damage per hit.

14% 3 times is better than 28% or 25% 1 time.

Thats before you add invulnerable saves etc which tilts the balance even more to multi shot weapons.

The Newman wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
But you currently have that now? A Rhino is 12 wounds, which is two shots from a Lascannon or a missile launcher? Granted it's improbable, but not impossible.

No, the poster I was originally responding to said that two Lascannon hits should reliably drop an APC.. They don't, and they probably shouldn't.

They should in order to make infantry viable against vehicles. The issue is that all special weapons with AP are grossly undercosted leading to the wargear porn of these modern editions.

 Wyzilla wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
But you currently have that now? A Rhino is 12 wounds, which is two shots from a Lascannon or a missile launcher? Granted it's improbable, but not impossible.

No, the poster I was originally responding to said that two Lascannon hits should reliably drop an APC.. They don't, and they probably shouldn't.

They should in order to make infantry viable against vehicles. The issue is that all special weapons with AP are grossly undercosted leading to the wargear porn of these modern editions.

Unless you're playing Marines and all the special weapons with AP are grossly overcosted instead. And, again, if infantry are that capable against vehicles then vehicles aren't viable.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
This edition is the first edition where a Lascannon doesn't have a chance to blow up most tanks in a single hit, I think. That's a funny counterpoint to the theory of "everything can hut everything".

But it's also the first edition where tanks are also legitimately scared of Lascannons.

In the past, a Lascannon had a 1/6 chance of penetrating and then a 1/3 chance of wrecking or exploding the vehicle. If the vehicle was in cover, it had an additional 4+ save.

This edition, Lascannons have been promoted to premier tank breaker tier, and wound all non-titans 2/3 of the time, and going through the save 5/6 of the time to deal damage.

That depends wildly on which edition and which vehicles you're referring too. In 3rd and 4th, a Lascannon had a 50% chance to Pen armor 12, then a 50% chance to blow it up with that, iirc. A "glance" in 3rd. (merely rolling Pen equal to the armor value) had a 1 in 6 of a kill. Earlier editions were also a 5+ cover, rather than a 4+.

Not to mention that any Penetrating Hit had a "cant fire next turn" result. A.k. a. suppression of tanks firing with good AT power. . . rather than running up and touching it.

In fact most damage results, even on the Glance damage table, resulted in a "can't fire next turn". "Suppressing" lots of vehicles was pretty easy to do, especially if you flanked them.

. . .

Also, meaningful distinction between the Razorback and Predator Chassis, as one had front armor 11, and one had front armor 13.

The Newman wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
But you currently have that now? A Rhino is 12 wounds, which is two shots from a Lascannon or a missile launcher? Granted it's improbable, but not impossible.

No, the poster I was originally responding to said that two Lascannon hits should reliably drop an APC.. They don't, and they probably shouldn't.

They should in order to make infantry viable against vehicles. The issue is that all special weapons with AP are grossly undercosted leading to the wargear porn of these modern editions.

Unless you're playing Marines and all the special weapons with AP are grossly overcosted instead. And, again, if infantry are that capable against vehicles then vehicles aren't viable.

No they're still viable, the issue is that you can't just blindly drive vehicles across the board right into infantry and expect any vehicle to come out intact. Vehicles should never be in close proximity to infantry in general as you have no idea what kind of heat said infantry is packing.

Without getting too far away from the point of the original post, I would just like to point out that the current chassis for this thing eclipses most "transports" and "Light tanks" in the game currently. I have no idea if the executioner will be different than the regular stock repulsor in base stats, one might presume no. If that is the case, we have a "light tank//transport" that has anti tank, anti-infantry, anti-charge, and anti-heavy infantry capabilities, flying, PotMS, and all for roughly 20-50pts LESS than a Land Raider?

At some point I would like the see behind the math for all Astartes units, and that includes Chaos. I mean everything from Cultists to Stormravens. Because if you an field three of these things in a list for less than 900pts, I will be gobsmacked.

The Newman wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
But you currently have that now? A Rhino is 12 wounds, which is two shots from a Lascannon or a missile launcher? Granted it's improbable, but not impossible.

No, the poster I was originally responding to said that two Lascannon hits should reliably drop an APC.. They don't, and they probably shouldn't.

Uh, I think you were referring to me, and I didn't say that. I said two Battlecannon ("tank gun") shots should on average drop an AFV, and that a man-portable weapon (such as a Lascannon), shouldn't. Though as someone pointed out, melta weapons should really be fearsome.