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Martel732 wrote: That's really impressive given how garbage predators are. I really don't get why they aren't 70 pts base.
Maybe being a good player makes up for their shortfall. You'll never know because by your own word you refuse to "run" units that aren't the best. But you've also said don't own any such units so I guess you can't really play the game?
Anyways, it takes skill and a bit of luck to win a GT with Marine vehicles as every loss can be felt. I've won the majority of games at some events using dual Repulsors and a Venator but was undone by an Eldar flyer soup in the later rounds.
Ehhh...preds can't even move and shoot efficiently. He literally sets up a gman gunline and does target priority. It's the most basic strategy in the book. Yeah - you can wipe some players off the board with that. It's gonna get rekt by anything that get get into assault turn 1. Which is basically 50% of lists. Not sure how he dodges those lists. Maybe people just underestimate him or use bad priority against him (killing 1 of those preds is basically all you need to do to beat this list). Hinging a stratagey around the survivability of a rhino is not good strategy.
The second place list in this GT has 6 eldar flyers and a bunch of wave serpants.Tell me how he is supposed to stop 4 wave serpants from getting into cc with his preds after he loses both repulsors turn 1?
No idea but it did it, I suspect it's the same dude that's been running that list for almost a year now and is just 100% on it and he's described as being good but having a list that either wins or looses quite hard on dice.
He uses the repulsors and Gman and infantry to keep you out of CC with the predators, usesthe cover strategum a lot to have 2+ army wide and IIRC tiggy for a -1 and T9 on the repulsors to improve their survival.
Remove 1 predator and Gman as he's lost the game I'm sure was his statement a while back.
The other issue is re-roll upon rerolls from Gman makes a massive swing in the performance of units.
Didn't see Tiggy in his list. He brought a unit of black templar servators so he can shut down doom on a 4+. It's the only reason he is able to face an eldar list. Ultimately it's a gimick and realistically shouldn't be allowed. Those servers shutting down farseers is extremely stupid and yet again an example of how the game should not be played.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Martel732 wrote: That's really impressive given how garbage predators are. I really don't get why they aren't 70 pts base.
Maybe being a good player makes up for their shortfall. You'll never know because by your own word you refuse to "run" units that aren't the best. But you've also said don't own any such units so I guess you can't really play the game?
Anyways, it takes skill and a bit of luck to win a GT with Marine vehicles as every loss can be felt. I've won the majority of games at some events using dual Repulsors and a Venator but was undone by an Eldar flyer soup in the later rounds.
He did face and beat or draw against some impressive players though, so it's not a shark in the fishtank issue. He also beat eldar flyers played by an eldar player whose strategy blog posts I was reading when I started back in 5th edition.
Multiple people also commented on how battlecannons suck at killing repulsors, a common gun for both IG and knights.
Humm...Battlecannons do better than every option except for the demo cannon against a repulsor plasma also does better against it. 3 Manticores belong in every mono guard list - for some reason they are missing.
The thing is, people are bringing battlecannons because they are great, no matter what a space marine player decides to bring. Some goes for plasma and custodes missiles.
The repulsor being T8 makes it pretty durable against plenty pretty expensive weapons means that many imperial players have trouble handling it - according to imperial players.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Xenomancers wrote: The second place list in this GT has 6 eldar flyers and a bunch of wave serpants.Tell me how he is supposed to stop 4 wave serpants from getting into cc with his preds after he loses both repulsors turn 1?
He bet that player in the final game, despite that eldar player getting a great first turn according to a spectator.
On an average turn both those repulsors die against that eldar list. I can't imagine a good turn then not winning the game lol.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Martel732 wrote: That's really impressive given how garbage predators are. I really don't get why they aren't 70 pts base.
Maybe being a good player makes up for their shortfall. You'll never know because by your own word you refuse to "run" units that aren't the best. But you've also said don't own any such units so I guess you can't really play the game?
Anyways, it takes skill and a bit of luck to win a GT with Marine vehicles as every loss can be felt. I've won the majority of games at some events using dual Repulsors and a Venator but was undone by an Eldar flyer soup in the later rounds.
He did face and beat or draw against some impressive players though, so it's not a shark in the fishtank issue. He also beat eldar flyers played by an eldar player whose strategy blog posts I was reading when I started back in 5th edition.
Multiple people also commented on how battlecannons suck at killing repulsors, a common gun for both IG and knights.
Humm...Battlecannons do better than every option except for the demo cannon against a repulsor plasma also does better against it. 3 Manticores belong in every mono guard list - for some reason they are missing.
The thing is, people are bringing battlecannons because they are great, no matter what a space marine player decides to bring. Some goes for plasma and custodes missiles.
The repulsor being T8 makes it pretty durable against plenty pretty expensive weapons means that many imperial players have trouble handling it - according to imperial players.
Knights are T8. Russ are T8. Custodes tanks are T8. Levi Dreads are T8. Literally most competitive lists are featuring T8. There is no reason to be unprepared for it.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Martel732 wrote: That's really impressive given how garbage predators are. I really don't get why they aren't 70 pts base.
Maybe being a good player makes up for their shortfall. You'll never know because by your own word you refuse to "run" units that aren't the best. But you've also said don't own any such units so I guess you can't really play the game?
Anyways, it takes skill and a bit of luck to win a GT with Marine vehicles as every loss can be felt. I've won the majority of games at some events using dual Repulsors and a Venator but was undone by an Eldar flyer soup in the later rounds.
Ehhh...preds can't even move and shoot efficiently. He literally sets up a gman gunline and does target priority. It's the most basic strategy in the book. Yeah - you can wipe some players off the board with that. It's gonna get rekt by anything that get get into assault turn 1. Which is basically 50% of lists. Not sure how he dodges those lists. Maybe people just underestimate him or use bad priority against him (killing 1 of those preds is basically all you need to do to beat this list). Hinging a stratagey around the survivability of a rhino is not good strategy.
The second place list in this GT has 6 eldar flyers and a bunch of wave serpants.Tell me how he is supposed to stop 4 wave serpants from getting into cc with his preds after he loses both repulsors turn 1?
No idea but it did it, I suspect it's the same dude that's been running that list for almost a year now and is just 100% on it and he's described as being good but having a list that either wins or looses quite hard on dice.
He uses the repulsors and Gman and infantry to keep you out of CC with the predators, usesthe cover strategum a lot to have 2+ army wide and IIRC tiggy for a -1 and T9 on the repulsors to improve their survival.
Remove 1 predator and Gman as he's lost the game I'm sure was his statement a while back.
The other issue is re-roll upon rerolls from Gman makes a massive swing in the performance of units.
Didn't see Tiggy in his list. He brought a unit of black templar servators so he can shut down doom on a 4+. It's the only reason he is able to face an eldar list. Ultimately it's a gimick and realistically shouldn't be allowed. Those servers shutting down farseers is extremely stupid and yet again an example of how the game should not be played.
I maybe wrong but I've seen somone playing a very similar list for a while though this does look like the next evolution of the concept.
But yeah the 4+ from a servator is BS I agree, you should need a Detachment of keyword X to unlock Keyword X strategums but thats not how it currently work's.
Martel732 wrote: Something was lost in translation, because I field crappy BA all the time.
He refers back to one of our prior conversations where you said you wouldn’t get the triple Repulsor double redemptor list, even though that it had been doing very well as a BA army in tournies.
If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed.
Xenomancers wrote: The second place list in this GT has 6 eldar flyers and a bunch of wave serpants.Tell me how he is supposed to stop 4 wave serpants from getting into cc with his preds after he loses both repulsors turn 1?
He bet that player in the final game, despite that eldar player getting a great first turn according to a spectator.
On an average turn both those repulsors die against that eldar list. I can't imagine a good turn then not winning the game lol.
Maybe he simply didn't try to kill the repulsors first if allegedly the key to beating the list is taking out the predators?
Heck, what do I know, I was reading that thread because of the ork list winning another tournament and just clicked on the list because he beat three people I actually can remember the screen names of. With the very strategy that was deemed idiotic by dakka's know-it-all marine players.
Go to reddit and tell them how he is using the wrong units to win a tournament against multiple seasoned veterans if it troubles you that much.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Xenomancers wrote: The second place list in this GT has 6 eldar flyers and a bunch of wave serpants.Tell me how he is supposed to stop 4 wave serpants from getting into cc with his preds after he loses both repulsors turn 1?
He bet that player in the final game, despite that eldar player getting a great first turn according to a spectator.
On an average turn both those repulsors die against that eldar list. I can't imagine a good turn then not winning the game lol.
Average turn?
3xCH: Hits on 4+ (moved), wounds on 4+ (S8), 2BL 1PL. Roughly 3 wounds per CH, 9 wounds total.
3xHemlocks: Autohits, wounds on 3s. Roughly 3W per CH, for 9 wounds total.
4xSerpents: Assuming BL, that's hits on 4+, wounds on 4+. 2BL. Less than 2W per Serpent, for 8W total.
That's 26W. That's a lot. But it's less than 2 Repulsors.
You specifically claim "On an average turn both those repulsors die against that eldar list.". That is *clearly* not true.
As for the 4+ to deny Doom - it's more likely to deny Quicken.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/27 15:02:34
Martel732 wrote: Something was lost in translation, because I field crappy BA all the time.
He refers back to one of our prior conversations where you said you wouldn’t get the triple Repulsor double redemptor list, even though that it had been doing very well as a BA army in tournies.
Pardon me for balking at pouring more money into the statistically poorest list in the game. I don't even like either model.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/27 15:03:34
Martel732 wrote: Something was lost in translation, because I field crappy BA all the time.
He refers back to one of our prior conversations where you said you wouldn’t get the triple Repulsor double redemptor list, even though that it had been doing very well as a BA army in tournies.
Pardon me for balking at pouring more money into the statistically poorest list in the game. I don't even like either model.
Just out of curiosity, do you gain something from being a giant poop cloud on everyone's attempt to enjoy a new model? I mean, you have been nothing but negative against the entire faction, we get it. You hate the new model, you hate the stat line, you have the rules. What is the point of all your negativity? You gain nothing from constantly pointing out how much you don't like the model.
But that is more a general hate of the Primairs/Cawl/Plasma IoM-is-best gak GW has been putting out since 8th started.
I miss the societal and technological regression story that was being told. And the "T'au actually improve!" schtick. And the "Ancient races with better tech" threat.
Xenomancers wrote: The second place list in this GT has 6 eldar flyers and a bunch of wave serpants.Tell me how he is supposed to stop 4 wave serpants from getting into cc with his preds after he loses both repulsors turn 1?
He bet that player in the final game, despite that eldar player getting a great first turn according to a spectator.
On an average turn both those repulsors die against that eldar list. I can't imagine a good turn then not winning the game lol.
Average turn?
3xCH: Hits on 4+ (moved), wounds on 4+ (S8), 2BL 1PL. Roughly 3 wounds per CH, 9 wounds total.
3xHemlocks: Autohits, wounds on 3s. Roughly 3W per CH, for 9 wounds total.
4xSerpents: Assuming BL, that's hits on 4+, wounds on 4+. 2BL. Less than 2W per Serpent, for 8W total.
That's 26W. That's a lot. But it's less than 2 Repulsors.
You specifically claim "On an average turn both those repulsors die against that eldar list.". That is *clearly* not true.
As for the 4+ to deny Doom - it's more likely to deny Quicken.
If there's one thing the last page or so has confirmed it's that certain posters are immune to the sort of logic presented above. Anything that goes against the sacred idea that SM are bad nad will always be bad is to be dismissed on sight, regardless of evidence ot the contrary.
Now, if you want to make a valid complaint about SM, I would point out it seems any successful SM list is almost required to include Guilliman. A greater variety of potentially successful builds would be welcome at this stage.
Martel732 wrote: It's good in theory. A more futuristic marine tank was a good idea. They just miscosted it. Or didn't give it appropriate defenses. Take your pick
I don't HATE the model. I just don't like it enough to buy three of them.
GREAT!
Then stop trying to tell everyone else who really likes the model, that they should hate it and not buy it, or play with it, or build lists with it! Seriously, I don't know why you are so driven to ruin this for everyone. I'm very excited to see this model, and a lot of others are as well. We get you think it's not good. Stop trying to ruin our happiness with your negativity.
You are being super negative and it's really exhausting trying to have a fun progressive dialogue about how to effectively use this when all you do is come in and crap over everything.
I don't think I said that. I just said it's not fairly costed when Gman is not on the table. It absolutely dominates some matchups. And then other times, gets smoked instantly. That's too swingy for such an expensive mode in my book.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/27 15:27:03
Agreed. Gman is basically the same as the Catlady of the Eldar was (Yvraine). A single model whos buffs basically reshape the faction by being so powerful.
Unfortunately, Marines seem priced to assume Gman's presence, whereas Eldar seemed priced assuming Yvraine's absence. Fortunately, Yvraine(/Ynnari) got nerfed hard.
That, and I'd love to see Marines get out of the deathblob/gunline playstyle.
Xenomancers wrote: The second place list in this GT has 6 eldar flyers and a bunch of wave serpants.Tell me how he is supposed to stop 4 wave serpants from getting into cc with his preds after he loses both repulsors turn 1?
He bet that player in the final game, despite that eldar player getting a great first turn according to a spectator.
On an average turn both those repulsors die against that eldar list. I can't imagine a good turn then not winning the game lol.
Average turn?
3xCH: Hits on 4+ (moved), wounds on 4+ (S8), 2BL 1PL. Roughly 3 wounds per CH, 9 wounds total.
3xHemlocks: Autohits, wounds on 3s. Roughly 3W per CH, for 9 wounds total.
4xSerpents: Assuming BL, that's hits on 4+, wounds on 4+. 2BL. Less than 2W per Serpent, for 8W total.
That's 26W. That's a lot. But it's less than 2 Repulsors.
You specifically claim "On an average turn both those repulsors die against that eldar list.". That is *clearly* not true.
As for the 4+ to deny Doom - it's more likely to deny Quicken.
His list is slightly different that what you are describing You are also failing hard at math A single hemlock with doom averages about 8 damage with the smite on a repulsor.
It's simple to figure out. You skip hitting - you average 4 shots and you'll wound 3 times with no save (WITHOUT DOOM) Plus smite for about 2 wounds.
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Bharring wrote: Agreed. Gman is basically the same as the Catlady of the Eldar was (Yvraine). A single model whos buffs basically reshape the faction by being so powerful.
Unfortunately, Marines seem priced to assume Gman's presence, whereas Eldar seemed priced assuming Yvraine's absence. Fortunately, Yvraine(/Ynnari) got nerfed hard.
That, and I'd love to see Marines get out of the deathblob/gunline playstyle.
I Guess Gman should go down in price then. Maybe to the base cost of a gallant which outperforms him a great deal in CC with twice the durability. If Gman buff cost is going to be included in ever marine unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: I refuse to play that. Probably explains my record. And frustration.
LOL youd still lose. Take a 400 point tax plus paying increased cost on all your bad units.
Like - you might snowball 20-30% of your games but in over half your games your going to get tabled even faster than blood angels. Real competitive lists don't rely on your opponents being bad or having bad turns against you to not be tabled in 3 turns.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/27 15:43:05
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
*shrug*. I guess I just see the Repulsor as the reintroduction of the deodorant hover tank from Rogue Trader with a modern plastic kit.
I have the existing Repulsor model at home, but since I usually play with my ‘nids or Tau, It wasn’t until this last week that I’d seen how it actually performs on the table. I wouldn’t mind having a copy of the new model to throw in a game, and in the 1K point games I play (that also don’t use named characters), I suspect it would perform fairly well.
Okay, I definitely think the negativity here from Xeno and Martel has been somewhat useful to highlight the unit's weaknesses. Thanks, guys - but we got the message, no need to keep repeating the same things over again
It is pretty good vs assault armies. Max firepower at 18", so even 12" movers might fail the charge. Ive had trouble trying to melee them. Now we just need melee to be meta relevant
Stormonu wrote: *shrug*. I guess I just see the Repulsor as the reintroduction of the deodorant hover tank from Rogue Trader with a modern plastic kit.
I love that idea, but the Repulsor doesn't really fit the bill for that, imo. I'd hope for something less. . . brick-ish. The Land Speeder Javelin scratches that itch for me.
The Repulsor to me feels like a response to imagery of the Bradley IFV, except "space marine-d" up. Bigger, blockier, more guns and future-anti-grav.
I'm not a Primaris guy, but I aalllmost like the Repulsor. the hull is a bit to tall for me.
Lemondish wrote: Okay, I definitely think the negativity here from Xeno and Martel has been somewhat useful to highlight the unit's weaknesses. Thanks, guys - but we got the message, no need to keep repeating the same things over again
It's not a weakness. If the unit was properly pointed it would still have a weakness against ap-4 multi damage weapons. It's a glaring oversight in rules writing. It is a unit that is supposed to be durable that is not. I can not reiterate this enough. The unit is not durable at all. It's like trying to argue that a space marine is not durable to you people. IT IS NOT. The way the game is played you are just paying points for nothing of value.
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Martel732 wrote: It is pretty good vs assault armies. Max firepower at 18", so even 12" movers might fail the charge. Ive had trouble trying to melee them. Now we just need melee to be meta relevant
It's the marines vs zerglings scenario. Glass cannons do pretty well when you cant hurt them because you die to fast to get into range to attack.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/27 16:40:36
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: The second place list in this GT has 6 eldar flyers and a bunch of wave serpants.Tell me how he is supposed to stop 4 wave serpants from getting into cc with his preds after he loses both repulsors turn 1?
He bet that player in the final game, despite that eldar player getting a great first turn according to a spectator.
On an average turn both those repulsors die against that eldar list. I can't imagine a good turn then not winning the game lol.
Average turn?
3xCH: Hits on 4+ (moved), wounds on 4+ (S8), 2BL 1PL. Roughly 3 wounds per CH, 9 wounds total.
3xHemlocks: Autohits, wounds on 3s. Roughly 3W per CH, for 9 wounds total.
4xSerpents: Assuming BL, that's hits on 4+, wounds on 4+. 2BL. Less than 2W per Serpent, for 8W total.
That's 26W. That's a lot. But it's less than 2 Repulsors.
You specifically claim "On an average turn both those repulsors die against that eldar list.". That is *clearly* not true.
As for the 4+ to deny Doom - it's more likely to deny Quicken.
His list is slightly different that what you are describing You are also failing hard at math A single hemlock with doom averages about 8 damage with the smite on a repulsor.
Why would you take the Smites on your Repulsors instead of on your troops? Positioning decides the targetting, and it'd be just plain silly to let the Hemlock be closest to the Repulsors.
I'm sure the CWE list is different from what I'm describing. Brightlances don't tend to get taken, especially on Serpents. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. Swap out the weapons, and the numbers get even worse.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote: Agreed. Gman is basically the same as the Catlady of the Eldar was (Yvraine). A single model whos buffs basically reshape the faction by being so powerful.
Unfortunately, Marines seem priced to assume Gman's presence, whereas Eldar seemed priced assuming Yvraine's absence. Fortunately, Yvraine(/Ynnari) got nerfed hard.
That, and I'd love to see Marines get out of the deathblob/gunline playstyle.
I Guess Gman should go down in price then. Maybe to the base cost of a gallant which outperforms him a great deal in CC with twice the durability. If Gman buff cost is going to be included in ever marine unit.
Or, just maybe, the cost of those other units should go down instead. Gman is still worth it, if you're bringing those other units. Those other units aren't worth it, if you don't bring Gman. So "fixing it" by dropping Gman's price is like "fixing" IG Guardsmen by making Veterans 2ppm. Sure, you fixed the issue. By making things *worse*.
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Martel732 wrote: I refuse to play that. Probably explains my record. And frustration.
LOL youd still lose. Take a 400 point tax plus paying increased cost on all your bad units.
Like - you might snowball 20-30% of your games but in over half your games your going to get tabled even faster than blood angels. Real competitive lists don't rely on your opponents being bad or having bad turns against you to not be tabled in 3 turns.
So is your argument that this Marine player is running "fake" list? I mean, how is it "fake"? If it's so poor, why aren't you outplacing him?
He doesn't have troops dude. When you take Gman and 2 repulsors and 3 predators...you have no points left for troops.
He has 3 units of eliminators - that is all. Hemlocks can easily get through those guys. Realistically screening with the eliminators would hurt him in the situation because it would give the wave serpents free movement to ensure predator wrap up.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
In what world is losing a Repulsor because you felt it should eat Smites a better idea than losing some Eliminators or Servitors?
I was running numbers for the generic case, but sure, lets get specific. The CWE list had:
-3 CHEs with Starcannons
3xPL: 4 wounds
6xStarCannons: 11 wounds
-3 Razorwings
12xDisintigrators: 4 wounds
3x Missiles: Might get another 2 wounds?
2xSC/SC Serpents + 3xSC/SL Serpents
7xSC: Less than 1 wound
3xSL: Less than 1 wound
Add it all together? I'm counting 23W. Not even close to wiping 2 Repulsors.
Automatically Appended Next Post: T8 3+ 16W is actually very durable.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/27 17:12:34
Not for its cost. If it cost 190 points, I'd agree. Russes are durable because of their cheap T8 hulls. At the repulsor price point and wound count, you need more tricks.
Repulsors are ideal smite targets. You need to make your schmoes take the smites.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/27 17:17:00
The Land Speeder Javelin scratches that itch for me.