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Recently watched a YouTube batrep of space marines vs tau. I happened to notice in the comments that many people were complaining about the way the tau player was rolling the dice, even going as far to say they would refuse a game if they saw a player rolling dice in such a way and pick up their models immediately. The way the individual rolled said dice was holding anywhere from 4-11 dice in a fist, holding the fist upside down facing the table about 2-3 inches from the table and dropping them. They did bounce, tumble etc. he wasn’t placing them what so ever but I was surprised at how many people hated it. Some went as far as to say it’s “against the rules” and isn’t “proper dice rolling as stated in the rule book”. Mind you other than stating the need to “roll” dice I don’t remember there being any other parameters for dice rolling in the BRB. This brings me to make this thread. What is dice rolling? What would you accept and not accept? In my personal opinion, if dice hits the table and bounces/tumbles/rolls, even if it’s only an inch of rolling then the said dice have been in fact rolled. I would only not accept simply “placing” dice down. Where no rolling of the dice was involved. I actually hate people who throw the dice. Open handed or two open hands, sort of launch the dice and they fall as they may. It hits terrain, models, etc and isn’t clean at all. It’s hard to see all of the results especially with an opponent who actively begins picking up their misses or hits. I also will not allow an individual to pick up hits. They might pick up a miss In hopes I do not catch it and count it as a hit. No one is going to pick up extra misses. Consensus?

Edit: video added for reference. Example can be seen at 47:55
https://youtu.be/uU6ccPIpNkU

Might help if you linked the video so that people could get an idea of what this unusual, potentially-problematic dice rolling looks like.

Video and example time stamp added

Know some people pics the dice on a number and throw it so that the dice falls mostly on the number they want.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Don't see any issue there. He moves the dice before. For me it would not be any issue.

Eh, while its clear he is not purposefully trying to roll them in a way that favors him, it is still not a proper role.

If you notice the dice are really only rolling off of his hands and hitting the table and staying. If you load the dice in your hand a given way you could potentially effect the out come of the roll.

With how it was doing it, it would irk me, simply because of its not a real roll, but its clear he is not trying to load the dice in his hand, at least from the clip.

I do something similar, but I do a few little shakes of my rust and then mid shake open my palm so the dice fall out. It keeps them in a nice close pile for everyone to clearly see results. I agree that it is something to watch for, for people to attempt to load dice though

Just looks like he is trying to keep them under control and not spray dice over the table to me, I do the same on a congested board if there is no tray.

The only type of "Rolling" i have ever called the guy out for and made him re roll is if he

A) rolls into terrain where i cant see it, calls it, and picks up the dice before i can actually see it.

B) Calls a very clearly cocked die as the result he favors

C) this one kid, who granted was trying to be cool but had to correct it,) would shake his hand with dice then turn it over using momentum to keep the dice in his hands and put it on the table, then pull his hand back.

If you wanna know "Dice etiquette" the best practices are

Roll in a location taht is free of models and terrain.
Call the results before hand (IE "looking for 4s rerolling 1s")
Pull misses/fails from the result, not successes.
Before scooping the successes a quick confirm with opponent ("looks good?")
then continue on.

I quite liked the dice rolling in the vid. It's really annoying when people roll their dice all in such a way that they scatter all over the place. The worst is rolling dice right into other dice still on the table from the previous roll. Better watch carefully to know which is which! It's like the ball in a cup game. This dice rolling was quite nice; they ended up in a pretty neat little bunch each time, making it easy and quick to check results. They were sufficiently mixed in his hand and randomized for my tastes.

 ingtaer wrote:
Just looks like he is trying to keep them under control and not spray dice over the table to me, I do the same on a congested board if there is no tray.

Yep. I certainly bounce/shake the dice in my hand(s) first, but then I still tend to release them close to the table to keep them confined to a small area.

That's definitely a shifty looking way of rolling the dice, so no wonder people are calling it out. I drop my dice close to the table too, but I do a good double handed shake that openly rattles them around. Just scooping them up and giving them one little bounce looks pretty shady.

THis would be a dumb way to try and cheat dice. Especially when you could do the classic 'Every dice has a different pattern/symbol set on it so it's impossible to read at a glance and I can basically make up whatever I want it to be' strat.

Orbei wrote:
The worst is rolling dice right into other dice still on the table from the previous roll.

This! Lawrence from Tabletop Tactics is terrible for this. I've messaged him about it, and he's apologised and said he'll try to stop, but he hasn't stopped. Old habits, I guess.

His rolling didn't seem all that out of line with average rolling. That said I can kinda get a player getting a weird feeling due to the way he rolled due to it being more of a wrist flick but nothing he rolled seemed fixed.

Looked ok to me.

My pet bugbear is when someone is rolling a handful of dice and one or two slip out, and they try and keep the result if it's favourable, but if it's not they declare the dice "dropped" and put them back in their hand to be rolled with the rest.

Orbei wrote:
I quite liked the dice rolling in the vid. It's really annoying when people roll their dice all in such a way that they scatter all over the place. The worst is rolling dice right into other dice still on the table from the previous roll. Better watch carefully to know which is which! It's like the ball in a cup game. This dice rolling was quite nice; they ended up in a pretty neat little bunch each time, making it easy and quick to check results. They were sufficiently mixed in his hand and randomized for my tastes.

Nonsense.

Dice for the Dice Gods! Let the Dice fall where they may!

For me, any roll that doesn't travel at least 30 cm is not sufficiently random. In an ideal situation you'd use a dice tower. Frankly with the absurd amount of rolls you need to make in 8th edition (a single Ork Boyz squad can need upwards of 100 dice to roll their Fight Phase attacks) I find it's not even feasible to use physical dice any more and it's far better to use a computerised application with really good pRNG or even better some sort of API to random.org for true RNG.

Furthermore, when you pick up your dice, you pick up your failed dice, then confirm with your opponent that the remaining dice are successful dice. That is, when you roll to hit, and need a 3+, you start picking up the 1's and 2's and then once the opponent and you agree you scoop up the rest. People who frantically "pick out the hits" before the opponent can see just scream of foul play to me.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
For me, any roll that doesn't travel at least 30 cm is not sufficiently random. In an ideal situation you'd use a dice tower. Frankly with the absurd amount of rolls you need to make in 8th edition (a single Ork Boyz squad can need upwards of 100 dice to roll their Fight Phase attacks) I find it's not even feasible to use physical dice any more and it's far better to use a computerised application with really good pRNG or even better some sort of API to random.org for true RNG.

Furthermore, when you pick up your dice, you pick up your failed dice, then confirm with your opponent that the remaining dice are successful dice. That is, when you roll to hit, and need a 3+, you start picking up the 1's and 2's and then once the opponent and you agree you scoop up the rest. People who frantically "pick out the hits" before the opponent can see just scream of foul play to me.

I would never accept someone using and damned dice rolling app in a tabletop game.


Its already annoying that so many people don't even carry around rulebooks, just phones.

I wouldn't have an issue. he's obviously trying to keep the dice visible to the camera nad not bounce everywhere. As mentioned, Lawrence from TT tactics just chucks his literally all over the table like he's fertilizing a whole lawn, cracks me up. Witnessed it at LVO too. That doesn't bother me either, he's just exuberant with it and comes with the personality. All good times!!

Heafstaag wrote:
I would never accept someone using and damned dice rolling app in a tabletop game.

Though I much prefer physical dice, once you start rolling more than you can comfortably fit in one fist, the exercise of generating random values from one to six becomes less and less likely to contradict probability, and really isn't all that enjoyable. Far better to use a trusted app to get it over and done with to maintain the pace of the game.

 Ginjitzu wrote:

Heafstaag wrote:
I would never accept someone using and damned dice rolling app in a tabletop game.

Though I much prefer physical dice, once you start rolling more than you can comfortably fit in one fist, the exercise of generating random values from one to six becomes less and less likely to contradict probability, and really isn't all that enjoyable. Far better to use a trusted app to get it over and done with to maintain the pace of the game.

Roll dice in batches. 60 attacks? 3 rounds of 20 works great. 100 attacks? 4 rounds of 25. It really doesn't take that long.

And what's more...you're actually rolling the dice. I won't accept the results of something that isn't actually rolling the dice in front of me. If someone finds rolling dice too much of a chore in a tabletop game where rolling buckets of dice is the solution to many problems perhaps they should play a different army or dedicate an extra bit of time for their games.

As far as I'm concerned, you can roll however you like. Pick up hits; pick up misses. Pick them up off the floor without me even seeing and declare the result. I don't care.

Reason is, if I'm playing you, it means I've already decided I trust you enough to want to play this game with you. So you deserve the benefit of the doubt, at least for the duration of the current game.

If I have sufficient reason to think you're a cheater or a basically dishonest person, then I won't play you again. But I'm not going to pack up my minis and flounce out halfway through a game. That's just childish nonsense.

Actual cheaters are generally pretty easy to spot before the game even starts, IME. So I just avoid playing those people.

And, at the end of the day, it's just a game. If you can only win by cheating, that's more your loss than mine. It doesn't actually hurt my enjoyment of the game unless I decide to allow it to. I'm most likely to just feel pity for you for being so emotionally fragile that you have to cheat just to avoid losing a silly toy-soldiers game.

Heafstaag wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Though I much prefer physical dice, once you start rolling more than you can comfortably fit in one fist, the exercise of generating random values from one to six becomes less and less likely to contradict probability, and really isn't all that enjoyable. Far better to use a trusted app to get it over and done with to maintain the pace of the game.

Roll dice in batches. 60 attacks? 3 rounds of 20 works great. 100 attacks? 4 rounds of 25. It really doesn't take that long.

I think it takes too long. That is to say, though the rolling itself takes little time, it's the pulling and counting that tests my patience.

Heafstaag wrote:And what's more...you're actually rolling the dice. I won't accept the results of something that isn't actually rolling the dice in front of me. If someone finds rolling dice too much of a chore in a tabletop game where rolling buckets of dice is the solution to many problems perhaps they should play a different army or dedicate an extra bit of time for their games.

It's not so much the rolling buckets of dice that I find is a chore, so much as the waiting for my opponent to throw their buckets of dice. I suppose I could take a stand like yours and just refuse to play against someone who throws heaps of dice, but I'm never really on the lookout for reasons not to play a game, so I'll usually just grin and bear it.

 Ginjitzu wrote:

Heafstaag wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Though I much prefer physical dice, once you start rolling more than you can comfortably fit in one fist, the exercise of generating random values from one to six becomes less and less likely to contradict probability, and really isn't all that enjoyable. Far better to use a trusted app to get it over and done with to maintain the pace of the game.

Roll dice in batches. 60 attacks? 3 rounds of 20 works great. 100 attacks? 4 rounds of 25. It really doesn't take that long.

I think it takes too long. That is to say, though the rolling itself takes little time, it's the pulling and counting that tests my patience.

Heafstaag wrote:And what's more...you're actually rolling the dice. I won't accept the results of something that isn't actually rolling the dice in front of me. If someone finds rolling dice too much of a chore in a tabletop game where rolling buckets of dice is the solution to many problems perhaps they should play a different army or dedicate an extra bit of time for their games.

It's not so much the rolling buckets of dice that I find is a chore, so much as the waiting for my opponent to throw their buckets of dice. I suppose I could take a stand like yours and just refuse to play against someone who throws heaps of dice, but I'm never really on the lookout for reasons not to play a game, so I'll usually just grin and bear it.

Fair enough. Long turns are brutal.

I play orks from time to time, and like to think I'm pretty quick about counting hits and whatnot. I usually play with friends, so we'll help each other when are rolling buckets of dice!

I've yet to see someone actually use a dice app in a game. I wouldn't quit a game, but I'd be a little upset if someone failed to mention that they weren't actually going to roll dice beforehand. I may not play with that person again. HOwever, as mentioned a generally play with buddies. Our games tend to take a bit longer as we're talking while the game goes on, cracking jokes, and just enjoying hanging out.

If we have a time limit we play lower point games.

Heafstaag wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
For me, any roll that doesn't travel at least 30 cm is not sufficiently random. In an ideal situation you'd use a dice tower. Frankly with the absurd amount of rolls you need to make in 8th edition (a single Ork Boyz squad can need upwards of 100 dice to roll their Fight Phase attacks) I find it's not even feasible to use physical dice any more and it's far better to use a computerised application with really good pRNG or even better some sort of API to random.org for true RNG.

Furthermore, when you pick up your dice, you pick up your failed dice, then confirm with your opponent that the remaining dice are successful dice. That is, when you roll to hit, and need a 3+, you start picking up the 1's and 2's and then once the opponent and you agree you scoop up the rest. People who frantically "pick out the hits" before the opponent can see just scream of foul play to me.

I would never accept someone using and damned dice rolling app in a tabletop game.


Its already annoying that so many people don't even carry around rulebooks, just phones.

Hopefully you don't mind games not going full turns then

 Ginjitzu wrote:

Orbei wrote:
The worst is rolling dice right into other dice still on the table from the previous roll.

This! Lawrence from Tabletop Tactics is terrible for this. I've messaged him about it, and he's apologised and said he'll try to stop, but he hasn't stopped. Old habits, I guess.

Exactly who I was thinking of. Love the guy, he's hillarious, but his dice rolling is terrible!

We just use a box to roll our dice and they have to be throw at one of the box walls and not just droped in. Fixs any problems. Plus we use the same set of dice for all payers.

I'm a big fan of dice sharing. Not sure if it is mandated in this edition, but it has been in the past. Often wilfully ignored by the most ardent lawyer types, interestingly.

nareik wrote:
I'm a big fan of dice sharing. Not sure if it is mandated in this edition, but it has been in the past. Often wilfully ignored by the most ardent lawyer types, interestingly.

I like to have and use my own pile of dice for my own actions, but I like to resolve my saves using the dice that triggered them, and I'm happy for my opponent to do the same. After all, they're already right there on the table. Dice are one of those things that expose many of our personal "quirks" it seems.

Now we need rules how to roll dice What he does is ok, the dice actually roll. Maybe drop them from a couple of inches higher.