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JNAProductions wrote: If you need AP to hurt things, you need to make AP more available.
I play Nurgle Daemons. I have almost no AP.
This would for sure require all factions to gain the ability to punch through said heavier armour with some tasty anti-armour weapons.
Aware that while you can plink a LR or knight with las guns no one actually does, this is more about a decent tank being able to shrug off stuff like S5/6 AP-1 type weapons much better, and removing invulnerable saves and re-rolls as a 'general' thing saved for stuff with void/power shields and hero types to speed the game generally.
specifically *not* thinking stuff like infantry, even heavy infantry, going to a 1+, thinking stuff like Land Raiders, maybe Leman Russ tanks from the front, maybe knights from the front (or a 2+) and larger titans, i.e. stuff that should be able to take essentially unlimited small arms fire and not really care at this scale (40k is no longer at the "shoot out the vision scopes!" type scale, save that sort of tricks for kill team or a stratagem card for special shots).
my though is really to bring back something Space Marine V1 had whereby armoured and unarmoured targets really behaved differently.
a heavy bolter etc should be dangerous to troops, bikes, light vehicles and similar, but a full on battle tank shouldn't care, ditto a laser cannon should (ideally) have a chance to punch right through a land speeder in a single shot but struggle perhaps v infantry (though that would mean 'to hit' modifiers too)
JNAProductions wrote: If you need AP to hurt things, you need to make AP more available.
I play Nurgle Daemons. I have almost no AP.
This would for sure require all factions to gain the ability to punch through said heavier armour with some tasty anti-armour weapons.
Aware that while you can plink a LR or knight with las guns no one actually does, this is more about a decent tank being able to shrug off stuff like S5/6 AP-1 type weapons much better, and removing invulnerable saves and re-rolls as a 'general' thing saved for stuff with void/power shields and hero types to speed the game generally.
specifically *not* thinking stuff like infantry, even heavy infantry, going to a 1+, thinking stuff like Land Raiders, maybe Leman Russ tanks from the front, maybe knights from the front (or a 2+) and larger titans, i.e. stuff that should be able to take essentially unlimited small arms fire and not really care at this scale (40k is no longer at the "shoot out the vision scopes!" type scale, save that sort of tricks for kill team or a stratagem card for special shots).
my though is really to bring back something Space Marine V1 had whereby armoured and unarmoured targets really behaved differently.
a heavy bolter etc should be dangerous to troops, bikes, light vehicles and similar, but a full on battle tank shouldn't care, ditto a laser cannon should (ideally) have a chance to punch right through a land speeder in a single shot but struggle perhaps v infantry (though that would mean 'to hit' modifiers too)
That's fair. It's just something to keep in mind-I've seen suggestions that would work for some factions, but horribly cripple others, and the people posting them had no idea (or, worse, didn't care).
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
oh yes you need to think it all through to the faction level, nothing should be invulnerable to any faction unless its specifically by design (e.g. a fantasy/low tech type faction who simply cannot hurt armour on purpose with weapons, but maybe have other ways)
another one I would like but can't see happening is to add a "size" stat, 0 for infantry, but then say +1 for something dreadnaught size, +2 for Rhino, +3 for actual tanks, more for larger.
you can then give some heavy weapons a built in "-3" to hit, they now seriously struggle v infantry (maybe keep the "6 always hits!"), but are perfectly find v larger targets, the armour changes means that yes you can pepper a tank with las gun rounds, and do so really easily, but it still won't care.
you can then give "stealth" stuff a -1 on this, ditto stuff like grots maybe as they are smaller or effectively harder to hit for some other reason.
this is a way to make big guns, that are heavy and slower to turn to track a target prefer heavier and larger targets, while stuff thats more agile can easily track smaller stuff, while struggling to hurt larger.
GW remembering there are toughnesses above 8 would also help
NOT A THING. My god they crank them out before I figure out the last set of rules. Then I have to buy all those glossy fat books again. I run 5 ARMIES and I've been in since 2nd ed. I may have personally sent some GW weenie's kids to school.
Monopoly's rules haven't changed in 50 years, stop changing stuff just for the sake of making us buy new merchandise
For the Emperor! Kill Maim Burn!... I mean purge the unclean!
Brotherjulian wrote: NOT A THING. My god they crank them out before I figure out the last set of rules. Then I have to buy all those glossy fat books again. I run 5 ARMIES and I've been in since 2nd ed. I may have personally sent some GW weenie's kids to school.
Monopoly's rules haven't changed in 50 years, stop changing stuff just for the sake of making us buy new merchandise
Better example would be chess. It's not a total crap game.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Martel732 wrote: Chess also has sufficiently finite moves that old computers can brute force humans out of the game.
That's true of CHECKERS. Not CHESS. Chess is not a solved game-and the computers that challenge grandmasters aren't brute-forcing every possibility, they're actually designed to narrow down good tactics.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
A Hybridization of the WH40K Rules with the Kill Team rules, designed to take into account the differences of table size and unit size. So it would look largely like the Kill Team rules with modifications like:
Initiative Phase
One Roll at the start of the game, then alternate who has priority each battle round.
Movement Phase
Extending of Charge Range, as 2d6 Charge instead of move works in the claustrophobic Kill Team battlefield, but won’t on a 4x4 or larger battlefield. I’d probably start with a Charge is an Advance move and see if that works.
Move Overwatch out of the Movement Phase and into the Shooting Phase.
Remove Readied as an option to avoid incentivizing static play.
Add options besides Falling Back or Standing Still for the player without Priority when enemy units Fall Back from them.
Psychic Phase
Pretty much 40K rules with Kill Team alternation of castings. Just need to allow units to both cast and deny during the one Psychic Phase.
Shooting Phase
Add Overwatch to Shooting Phase, making it a modifier and limitation to shooting options for units that are charged. Something like -2 to Hit and you may only target a unit that is both within 1” of you and charged you in the proceeding Movement Phase. This will make-up a bit for the integrated movement phase.
Keep Kill Team Obsurced for Light Cover and add Armor Bonus for Heavy Cover, but use 40K rule for the rest of shooting resolution.
Fight Phase
Follow Kill Team selection rules with 40K resolution rules
Morale Phase
Follow 40K Rules, but alternate rolling player by player.
The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.
Martel732 wrote: Chess also has sufficiently finite moves that old computers can brute force humans out of the game.
That's true of CHECKERS. Not CHESS. Chess is not a solved game-and the computers that challenge grandmasters aren't brute-forcing every possibility, they're actually designed to narrow down good tactics.
They don't challenge grand masters. They destroy grand masters. Chess engines have been beating GMs since the 90s. They stopped doing meaningful chess matches between grandmasters and machines in 2006 when the world champ at the time went 0-2-4 against a chess engine. Something like Alpha-zero, GMs are obscenely lucky to force a draw.
Chess isn't fully solved yet, but humans are certainly out of it.
Also they determine those good tactics by brute force calculating what moves will either win the fastest or lose the slowest. Also stuff like endgame tablebases, which is like the definition of brute forcing.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/02 17:57:23
I'd like for Space Marine bikers to be Core again under certain conditions, such as the warlord being on a bike. I'd also like biker Librarians to be allowed again, as they are no longer legal per Codex rules.
I've got a White Scars army gathering dust since the start of 8th Ed.
alextroy wrote: A Hybridization of the WH40K Rules with the Kill Team rules, designed to take into account the differences of table size and unit size. So it would look largely like the Kill Team rules with modifications like:
Initiative Phase
One Roll at the start of the game, then alternate who has priority each battle round.
Movement Phase
Extending of Charge Range, as 2d6 Charge instead of move works in the claustrophobic Kill Team battlefield, but won’t on a 4x4 or larger battlefield. I’d probably start with a Charge is an Advance move and see if that works.
Move Overwatch out of the Movement Phase and into the Shooting Phase.
Remove Readied as an option to avoid incentivizing static play.
Add options besides Falling Back or Standing Still for the player without Priority when enemy units Fall Back from them.
Psychic Phase
Pretty much 40K rules with Kill Team alternation of castings. Just need to allow units to both cast and deny during the one Psychic Phase.
Shooting Phase
Add Overwatch to Shooting Phase, making it a modifier and limitation to shooting options for units that are charged. Something like -2 to Hit and you may only target a unit that is both within 1” of you and charged you in the proceeding Movement Phase. This will make-up a bit for the integrated movement phase.
Keep Kill Team Obsurced for Light Cover and add Armor Bonus for Heavy Cover, but use 40K rule for the rest of shooting resolution.
Fight Phase
Follow Kill Team selection rules with 40K resolution rules
Morale Phase
Follow 40K Rules, but alternate rolling player by player.
I don't play kill team so I can't comment on most of these outside of 'pass', but the one that really stands out is the morale phase.
If the morale phase just uses 40k rules, why the feth does it matter if you alternate or not? It's not like my morale roles affect his morale rolls.
Actual (though still simplified) fire arcs for vehicle mounted weapons
(and don't try & give me any of this gak that it's "too complex". If you can figure out all the tricks to maximize your current CP system strats, etc? Then you can handle the simple concept that the left hand sponson cannot fire out the right side of your tank. Or that say a vindicators forward facing gun can only fire at things in front of the tank. Or that turrets turn for a reason..... )
*Looks at autocannons and hot-shot volley guns on Taurox Primes* No, please! Anything but that!
Also, no one in the history of humanity has ever objected to fire arcs due to complexity.
People object to fire arcs because A. They make vehicles with non-turret mounted weapons a lot weaker for no reason and B. Vehicles in 40k have odd shapes that make determining arcs difficult. Remember the old knight arcs? The ones where a knight couldn't shoot anything directly in front of it?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/02 18:10:00
alextroy wrote: A Hybridization of the WH40K Rules with the Kill Team rules, designed to take into account the differences of table size and unit size. So it would look largely like the Kill Team rules with modifications like:
Initiative Phase
One Roll at the start of the game, then alternate who has priority each battle round.
Movement Phase
Extending of Charge Range, as 2d6 Charge instead of move works in the claustrophobic Kill Team battlefield, but won’t on a 4x4 or larger battlefield. I’d probably start with a Charge is an Advance move and see if that works.
Move Overwatch out of the Movement Phase and into the Shooting Phase.
Remove Readied as an option to avoid incentivizing static play.
Add options besides Falling Back or Standing Still for the player without Priority when enemy units Fall Back from them.
Psychic Phase
Pretty much 40K rules with Kill Team alternation of castings. Just need to allow units to both cast and deny during the one Psychic Phase.
Shooting Phase
Add Overwatch to Shooting Phase, making it a modifier and limitation to shooting options for units that are charged. Something like -2 to Hit and you may only target a unit that is both within 1” of you and charged you in the proceeding Movement Phase. This will make-up a bit for the integrated movement phase.
Keep Kill Team Obsurced for Light Cover and add Armor Bonus for Heavy Cover, but use 40K rule for the rest of shooting resolution.
Fight Phase
Follow Kill Team selection rules with 40K resolution rules
Morale Phase
Follow 40K Rules, but alternate rolling player by player.
I don't play kill team so I can't comment on most of these outside of 'pass', but the one that really stands out is the morale phase.
If the morale phase just uses 40k rules, why the feth does it matter if you alternate or not? It's not like my morale roles affect his morale rolls.
Because knowing the results of any specific Morale roll may impact your willingness to use special rules on your own Morale checks. It could be simplified to the player with Priority rolls first, but I like the idea of going back an forth.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/02 19:45:07
Togusa wrote: 1. Move from a D6 system to a D8, D10 or some other system so as to allow for a greater stat-line distribution. Add in alternating activations, al a Killteam. Move even if you fail the charge.
I would absolutely love a D10 integration.The're fun to roll and would provide great flexibility.
~ Shrap
Rolling 1's for five and a half decades.
AoS * Konflikt '47 * Conquest Last Argument of Kings * Trench Crusade * Horus Heresy * The Old World * Armoured Clash
-Guardsman- wrote: I'd also like biker Librarians to be allowed again, as they are no longer legal per Codex rules.
If they're in the Index, they're currently still a legal unit even if they're not in the Codex.
How long this will be the case is unknown - and when the question came up in the UKGE seminar, the response indicated they weren't going away in the short-term - but if there is an entry in the Index, use 'em.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
-Guardsman- wrote: I'd also like biker Librarians to be allowed again, as they are no longer legal per Codex rules.
If they're in the Index, they're currently still a legal unit even if they're not in the Codex.
How long this will be the case is unknown - and when the question came up in the UKGE seminar, the response indicated they weren't going away in the short-term - but if there is an entry in the Index, use 'em.
It's pretty bad that you have to buy an old and technically outdated book just to use a model that should be in the codex.
Why did GW start their whole thing of murdering choices for hqs anyway?
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
-Guardsman- wrote: I'd also like biker Librarians to be allowed again, as they are no longer legal per Codex rules.
If they're in the Index, they're currently still a legal unit even if they're not in the Codex.
How long this will be the case is unknown - and when the question came up in the UKGE seminar, the response indicated they weren't going away in the short-term - but if there is an entry in the Index, use 'em.
It's pretty bad that you have to buy an old and technically outdated book just to use a model that should be in the codex.
Why did GW start their whole thing of murdering choices for hqs anyway?
When the Chapter House lawsuits wrapped up. That's why we have No Model, No Rules. We're lucky we have Index options at all.
After the Chapterhouse Studios fiasco, someone in GW made the loosely enforced "no model, no rules" policy that has made unit after unit disappear from the game. The Indexes created rules for many such a model, but the 8th Edition Codexes are back to "no model, no rules".
Blastaar wrote: How are universal special rules more confusing than multitudes of "bespoke" rules that are actually slightly different versions of the same thing under different names?
USRs work until the rules writers want to have a variation of the USR and so we get bespoke rules anyway but now everyone who thought USRs were meant to be a thing are confused.
a D6 offers 7 results (1-6 + nothing), including automatic success and automatic fail (7) while modifier added to the roll needed can extend this
if the rolls needed would be directly in the profile, using all values would give us profiles from 6-0 and +/- 1-2 as additional modifieres.
eg a Space Marine gets 3+ to hit for ranged a Guardsmen 5+, a Grot 6+, a SM Hero 2+
a Marine can have 5+ defence to roll against for to wound while a tank could have 7+ and the (anti-tank) weapon can add +1/2/3 to the to wound roll, adding armour saves from 1-6 again with modifiers from the weapon
as soon as nearly everything is 3+/4+ with re-rolls and +/-1 modifiers with no auto fail/sucess you don't use the possibilities of the D6 and using a D10 would only mean that a "10 always hits/wounds" would reduce the problem that low strength+high ROF is the better anti-tank weapon but not solve it
for 40k:
pofile values are 1-10 and therefore the whole scale should be used (no 90% of units on the table are between 2 and 5)
than all to hit/to wound rolls should use a comparision chart (best to add a another defence value, like agility for ranged and melee hit rolls to roll against next to S/T) to make the most out of such profile values
I guess we have them because GW learned from AoS and going straight to the 8th edition reboot without prober rules for all legecy models the chance to fail was there
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
Down with "No model no rules", more like. It kills creativity and narrows the game down to fewer options. Them applying such a policy to orks was the last straw.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Down with "No model no rules", more like. It kills creativity and narrows the game down to fewer options. Them applying such a policy to orks was the last straw.
They are legally obligated to do so, or they will lose their IP rights.
~4100
~1660
