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Terminators aren't in the best spot at the moment, though they aren't in the worst either. But there is a ton of discussion as to how to improve them, and a lot of it always seems to center on the discussion of their suitability and survive-ability. Treating AP-1 as AP 0, adding a third wound, or improving the toughness of the unit to 5 have all be suggested.

But, what are terminators? And have we (community) been thinking about them all wrong? In the lore and the games terminators are ultra tough units, low in number, veterans of hundreds of battles. "Tactical Dreadnought Armor." They go into the toughest, most dangerous places and root out the enemy by brute force and shear destructive fire power and precision. They have studied not only their armor and weapons, but the tactics and traits of their enemies. They know how and when to strike for maximum effect. We want a unit that can strike and and hurt anything, regardless of the enemy type. From front-line soldiers defending a fortified position, to entrenched battle tanks suppressing friendly forces, to enemy commanders directing their minions from secured positions. To this end, let's play around with the following by giving the basic terminator data sheet a new rule: I call it "Primary Threat Spotted"

Primary Threat Spotted: (rolled after a deepstrike is completed) At the end of the movement phase select a unit within 12 inches, visible to the unit. For the remainder of the game, or until the unit is destroyed you may reroll, failed charges, 1's to hit in melee attacks against that unit. In addition, if the sergeant is still alive you receive a +1 to wound bonus against that unit. A unit must be fully destroyed before a new unit can be selected for the target of this ability.

This would help to fix a lot of the issues with Terminators, while keeping them both thematic and fluffy.

Yes and no.

Basically remove the range. Sometimes it's better to drop terminators on an objective and range things out.

 fraser1191 wrote:
Yes and no.

Basically remove the range. Sometimes it's better to drop terminators on an objective and range things out.

Removing the range is fine to do, so long as it doesn't overpower the ability. I still think the unit being targeted must be visible, but the range can go.

VERSION: .2

Primary Threat Spotted: (rolled after a deepstrike is completed) At the end of the movement phase select an enemy unit visible to this unit. For the remainder of the game, or until the unit is destroyed you may reroll failed charges and 1's to hit in melee against that unit. In addition if the terminator sergeant is still alive, you receive a +1 to wound bonus against that unit. A unit must be fully destroyed before a new unit can be selected for the target of this ability.

This feels more like a stratagem than a built-in rule. Given how complicated and powerful the rule is, it may be better to slap a CP cost on this. Your opponent will feel better about your wounds on 2+/rerolls 1s without a captain/reroll charges without being Black Templars terminators if there's a visible cost tied to all those bonuses. Plus, I'd be tempted to say that those bonus might be just a bit too powerful on terminators without a price increase (even considering how unpopular they are at the moment.)

A note on unit design: I feel the reasons most discussions surround terminators tend to focus on defense rather than offense are...

A.) When you look at the model and consider their loadouts/fluff, the main thing that makes someone a "terminator" is the super thick armor they're clanking around in. Sure, they're honored veterans, but so are sternguard. And the sternguard can move in their armor a lot more easily. Should sternguard gain similar bonuses to their shooting?

B.) Between shooting 4 shots apiece and swinging a couple of power klaw attacks apiece, the on-paper damage potential for a terminator is actually pretty decent. The issue is that a 9" charge that might have to be against a cheap screen instead of a more valuable target just isn't very reliable. Surviving to move and charge on the following turn can help with this delivery system issue by simply letting them stick around long enough to get in a better position for a charge and shoot some more.

Wyldhunt wrote:
This feels more like a stratagem than a built-in rule. Given how complicated and powerful the rule is, it may be better to slap a CP cost on this. Your opponent will feel better about your wounds on 2+/rerolls 1s without a captain/reroll charges without being Black Templars terminators if there's a visible cost tied to all those bonuses. Plus, I'd be tempted to say that those bonus might be just a bit too powerful on terminators without a price increase (even considering how unpopular they are at the moment.)

A note on unit design: I feel the reasons most discussions surround terminators tend to focus on defense rather than offense are...

A.) When you look at the model and consider their loadouts/fluff, the main thing that makes someone a "terminator" is the super thick armor they're clanking around in. Sure, they're honored veterans, but so are sternguard. And the sternguard can move in their armor a lot more easily. Should sternguard gain similar bonuses to their shooting?

B.) Between shooting 4 shots apiece and swinging a couple of power klaw attacks apiece, the on-paper damage potential for a terminator is actually pretty decent. The issue is that a 9" charge that might have to be against a cheap screen instead of a more valuable target just isn't very reliable. Surviving to move and charge on the following turn can help with this delivery system issue by simply letting them stick around long enough to get in a better position for a charge and shoot some more.

I am often told by competitives that survive-ability is stupid, expect your stuff to die, live for the alpha strike.

But I'm a fluff gamer, I want to see the fluff reenacted on the table. With that said, we can make changes. Personally I think the -1 to hit with power fists is silly, unless we want to discuss bumping Terminators to WS/BS 2+, which I'm open to debating. And I would say the difference with respect to sterguard units is that they don't need the help that terminators do. Personally, I find most of the marine units to just be way over costed for what they do. This edition so heavily favors cheap flakk, and has spent a total of 4 faqs and to major rule books ignoring any possible balance solutions for the more elite armies.

Custodes rules on the table top pretty much perfectly match the way marines on both sides of the island are portrayed. When I watch my buddies roll bucket after bucket of dice at them and push little to know wounds through, I think "This is how marines should be playing."

For example:

V.3

Primary Threat Spotted: At the beginning of the shooting phase select an enemy unit visible to this unit. For the remainder of the game, or until the unit is destroyed you may re-roll failed charges and you receive +1 to wound against that unit. A unit must be fully destroyed before a new unit can be selected for the target of this ability.

Alternatively the rule could be re-written entirely as follows.

Primary Threat Spotted: At the beginning of the fight phase choose one of the following:
-Reroll hit rolls of 1 in the fight phase.
-Reroll wound rolls of 1 in the fight phase.
-Reroll failed armor saves of 1 in the fight phase.

Or:

Primary Threat Spotted: At the beginning of the Shooting Phase select a unit visible to this unit. You may reroll hit and wound rolls of 1 against this unit until the end of the battle round.

I think terminators should inherently ignore hit penalties. That would let them move and shoot with heavy weapons (an ability they have always had, historically), swing power fists and thunder hammers without penalty.

Added benefit is that terminators provide a unit which can comfortably deal with Alaitoc-/Alpha Legion-style "Chapter Tactics".

 MinMax wrote:
I think terminators should inherently ignore hit penalties. That would let them move and shoot with heavy weapons (an ability they have always had, historically), swing power fists and thunder hammers without penalty.

Added benefit is that terminators provide a unit which can comfortably deal with Alaitoc-/Alpha Legion-style "Chapter Tactics".

I think they should ignore the "to hit" penalties for heavy weapons and have "terminator power fists" which don't have the -1 to hit. I'm less sold on them being able to target fliers and invisible people without the penalty.

Would it be fluffy for them to have advanced targeting systems in their suits (it doesn't sound beyond the realms of reality to me) and have a special rule which slightly helps, EG if they shoot the same unit for 2 turns, on the second turn they get +1 to hit? "sustained fire", as it were?

Alternatively slap a "thermal targeting system" stratagem into the mix which allows any space marine or terminator unit to ignore to hit modifiers (except those for moving and shooting heavy weapons) this turn. invisible? don't care, you're still warm.

There have been many suggestions and personally these are the 2 that would most help them

T5 base, and allow multiple heavy weapons a unit.

With 8th ap systems terminators got a signifigent nerf because they have to suffer from things that are AP -1. The other big issue, and this has been the issue for a while, at the end of the day, terminators are still shooting just a bolter. Even with bolter dicipline, it's still only s4 - 1 that's not great. This is why the sot are really the only good terminators I'm the game. Them and blight Lord's because nurgal

 Backspacehacker wrote:
There have been many suggestions and personally these are the 2 that would most help them

T5 base, and allow multiple heavy weapons a unit.

With 8th ap systems terminators got a signifigent nerf because they have to suffer from things that are AP -1. The other big issue, and this has been the issue for a while, at the end of the day, terminators are still shooting just a bolter. Even with bolter dicipline, it's still only s4 - 1 that's not great. This is why the sot are really the only good terminators I'm the game. Them and blight Lord's because nurgal

Agreed. Give it T5 and call it a day.

T5, Move and Shoot ala Havocs and No -1 on PF and they'd be in a much better place.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
T5, Move and Shoot ala Havocs and No -1 on PF and they'd be in a much better place.

Unpopular opinion, make them ws and BS 2+ and don't give them any bonus to move and shoot like havocs, have it represent the fact that terminators are meant to be the elite and esteemed vets of the chapter.

A third wound is not negotiable with the dissy cannon in the game. Fruity space pirates own the most sophisticated imperial armor system? Okay.

Martel732 wrote:
A third wound is not negotiable with the dissy cannon in the game. Fruity space pirates own the most sophisticated imperial armor system? Okay.

An ancient and highly advanced race, once great in psychic glory, that has focused their efforts on technology instead, has a weapon capable of reducing the armor of the best in the Imperium, which has been backsliding for 10,000 years...

I get that, mechanically, there's an issue with Terminators relative to the plethora of D2 weapons. But fluffwise, that's a silly complaint.

The fruity space pirates are too good mechanically. Thats the main point.

Really, all termies need is to be bumped up to T6 so heavy bolters/dissy cannons only wound on 5's, lasguns only wound on 6's and then dropped to 18PPM so that even the most expensive load out on a 5 man squad is sub 200pts. problems solved.

Martel732 wrote:
The fruity space pirates are too good mechanically. Thats the main point.

Instead of using meme terminology that half of us are probably unfamiliar with, could you elaborate on what a "dissy" cannon is, and who the "fruity space priates are"?

Because I haven't a clue to what you're referring.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Djangomatic82 wrote:
Really, all termies need is to be bumped up to T6 so heavy bolters/dissy cannons only wound on 5's, lasguns only wound on 6's and then dropped to 18PPM so that even the most expensive load out on a 5 man squad is sub 200pts. problems solved.

And any flare and flavor is gone. They're just generic bump stat up, bump points down changes that keep the game stale and uninteresting for us narrative/fluff types.

Drukhari and disintegrator cannons.

I think they need a better standard weapon. Back in 30k Terminators could carry a storm volkite. Make these elite troops dangerous to other elite infantry and light vehicles just with their basic weapons. More heavy weapons would be nice, or put a Cyclone launcher on ALL of them. Even Assault Terminators.

Terminator Armor special rule: Nigh Invulvernable: Decrease the AP of any weapon fired at a model in Terminator Armor by -2. Additionally, all rolls to wound are -1 against a unit in Terminator armor.

This will make any 5 man unit a tough nut to crack regardless of who is shooting at it. Make it like the fluff, and you have to devote heavy firepower to take them down. Adding a wound wouldn't hurt either.

Yeah no penalty to move and shot and to power fists / thunder hammers would be a good beginning.

Why would your primary threat spotted work only in assault ?

Maybe a stratagem to let terminators shoot twice would be good, and enough. Not in built in their profil, this way you can't spam it for the whole game, you have to use your cp. But anyway you reasonably only need it twice. Just those two changes and they would be in a perfect spot I think

Definatley moving and shooting at full accuracy. Also something like the ignoring -1ap would be nice