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let’s says I land 10 wounds with d3 wounds each. Let’s say I get the following:

4x 1 wound
3x 2 wound
3x 3 wound

Vs nobs (2 wounds)

So the player can choose to allocate 1 wound to a nob , then a 2 wound to the nob using up 3 wounds. He keeps applying 1 wounds first with a high wound so essentially I can only kill 6 of them? Seems like a weakness of having random wounds and a good way to cancel out quite a bit of damage. Saves 2 models like this. Legal?

GameDadZ wrote:
let’s says I land 10 wounds with d3 wounds each. Let’s say I get the following:

4x 1 wound
3x 2 wound
3x 3 wound

Vs nobs

So the player can choose to allocate 1 wound to a nob , then a 2 wound to the nob using up 3 wounds. He keeps applying 1 wounds first with a high wound so essentially I can only kill 6 of them? Seems like a weakness of having random wounds and a good way to cancel out quite a bit of damage. Saves 2 models like this. Legal?

Well, the problem is you're rolling all the random damage before allocating and rolling to save, which is incorrect. You need to allocate the wound first, then roll to save, then roll for damage, one wound at a time. This means you can "lose" wounds because damage won't spill over, but the defender can't know ahead of time how much damage each wound will do.

In your situation, you have 10 wounds. You allocate 1 to a Nob, roll to save, roll for damage, remove casualties if needed. Repeat 9 more times.

Oh thanks, that’s awesome. Was doing it wrong this whole time.

GameDadZ wrote:
Oh thanks, that’s awesome. Was doing it wrong this whole time.

Keep in mind that you can (and will most likely) "lose" damage this way, since for example if the first wound deals 1 damage and then the second deals 3, you lose two damage of wounds since the wounded Nob must be allocated the wound.

Yeah it was just better than having the enemy cherry pick the allocation for maximum inefficiency.

Also, I assume I don’t need to roll saves one at a time since those are identical. Just after failed saves, roll damage one at a time.

GameDadZ wrote:
Yeah it was just better than having the enemy cherry pick the allocation for maximum inefficiency.

Also, I assume I don’t need to roll saves one at a time since those are identical. Just after failed saves, roll damage one at a time.

You have to do the saves one at a time.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

GameDadZ wrote:
Yeah it was just better than having the enemy cherry pick the allocation for maximum inefficiency.

Also, I assume I don’t need to roll saves one at a time since those are identical. Just after failed saves, roll damage one at a time.

You have to do the saves one at a time.

By strict RAW only. Virtually no one, excepting BCB himself, cares if you fast-roll saves.

Huh... any particular reason to do that? Assuming it comes from my rapid fire battle cannons, ap2, the entire squad with no mixed armor would need a 6 to save.

Edit: I see it is the strict reading. Maybe I’ll remember that for tournaments by GW stores. Don’t think it’s a problem nornallly.

GameDadZ wrote:
Huh... any particular reason to do that? Assuming it comes from my rapid fire battle cannons, ap2, the entire squad with no mixed armor would need a 6 to save.

Edit: I see it is the strict reading. Maybe I’ll remember that for tournaments by GW stores. Don’t think it’s a problem nornallly.

BCB is a very strict RAW kinda person. No one cares if you fastroll saves, except him.

Edit: Not even GW cares. It's really just him.

 JNAProductions wrote:

GameDadZ wrote:
Huh... any particular reason to do that? Assuming it comes from my rapid fire battle cannons, ap2, the entire squad with no mixed armor would need a 6 to save.

Edit: I see it is the strict reading. Maybe I’ll remember that for tournaments by GW stores. Don’t think it’s a problem nornallly.

BCB is a very strict RAW kinda person. No one cares if you fastroll saves, except him.

Edit: Not even GW cares. It's really just him.

I am very strict when it comes to random damage weapons and mulit-wound models, if its a d3 damage weapon and you have 2 wounds I will make you take each save one at a time. If its a flat damage like d2 from overcharged plasma or into single wound models, thats fine fast roll them but i will 100% not let an opponent fast roll random damage vs multi-wound

 JNAProductions wrote:

GameDadZ wrote:
Huh... any particular reason to do that? Assuming it comes from my rapid fire battle cannons, ap2, the entire squad with no mixed armor would need a 6 to save.

Edit: I see it is the strict reading. Maybe I’ll remember that for tournaments by GW stores. Don’t think it’s a problem nornallly.

BCB is a very strict RAW kinda person. No one cares if you fastroll saves, except him.

Edit: Not even GW cares. It's really just him.

Agreed. It makes literally no difference to how the game pans out, so provided all models in the unit have the same save then fast roll away. Following the RAW here is ridiculous, as it takes more time and has no effect on the game state.

aldo1234 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

GameDadZ wrote:
Huh... any particular reason to do that? Assuming it comes from my rapid fire battle cannons, ap2, the entire squad with no mixed armor would need a 6 to save.

Edit: I see it is the strict reading. Maybe I’ll remember that for tournaments by GW stores. Don’t think it’s a problem nornallly.

BCB is a very strict RAW kinda person. No one cares if you fastroll saves, except him.

Edit: Not even GW cares. It's really just him.

I am very strict when it comes to random damage weapons and mulit-wound models, if its a d3 damage weapon and you have 2 wounds I will make you take each save one at a time. If its a flat damage like d2 from overcharged plasma or into single wound models, thats fine fast roll them but i will 100% not let an opponent fast roll random damage vs multi-wound

Still does not matter, as you can assign failed saves to individual models, then roll damage for them...

It actually does matter.

Scenario: You have one Tartaros Terminator model out of two within range of an objective marker. The Model in range has a combi-bolter, the model out of range has a Reaper Autocannon. You want the Reaper Autocannon to shoot at a thing but also want to control the objective.

You take 10 wounds. Now, following the rules you need to decide which model you'll take each save on one at a time, without knowledge of whether you're going to fail 10 wounds or 1 wound.

If you batch roll the saves and see you've only failed 1, you can make a calculated risk on putting the single wound on the Combi-Bolter dude and save the Reaper Autocannon, using information you should not have.

Even if they both have the same armament, the same argument applies for Controlling an Objective vs being out of LOS or some other scenario.

 DeathReaper wrote:

aldo1234 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

GameDadZ wrote:
Huh... any particular reason to do that? Assuming it comes from my rapid fire battle cannons, ap2, the entire squad with no mixed armor would need a 6 to save.

Edit: I see it is the strict reading. Maybe I’ll remember that for tournaments by GW stores. Don’t think it’s a problem nornallly.

BCB is a very strict RAW kinda person. No one cares if you fastroll saves, except him.

Edit: Not even GW cares. It's really just him.

I am very strict when it comes to random damage weapons and mulit-wound models, if its a d3 damage weapon and you have 2 wounds I will make you take each save one at a time. If its a flat damage like d2 from overcharged plasma or into single wound models, thats fine fast roll them but i will 100% not let an opponent fast roll random damage vs multi-wound

Still does not matter, as you can assign failed saves to individual models, then roll damage for them...

yes one at a time, if for example you have primaris marines and are being targeted by d3 damage weapons, then saving all as a lot (which you cant fast roll since they have different damage characteristics) would let the opponent put a 1 wound on a model and then 3 wounds from the next attack, which "wastes" at least 1 wound from the pool. so its easy for the defender to game the system for the results they want.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It actually does matter.

Scenario: You have one Tartaros Terminator model out of two within range of an objective marker. The Model in range has a combi-bolter, the model out of range has a Reaper Autocannon. You want the Reaper Autocannon to shoot at a thing but also want to control the objective.

You take 10 wounds. Now, following the rules you need to decide which model you'll take each save on one at a time, without knowledge of whether you're going to fail 10 wounds or 1 wound.

If you batch roll the saves and see you've only failed 1, you can make a calculated risk on putting the single wound on the Combi-Bolter dude and save the Reaper Autocannon, using information you should not have.

Even if they both have the same armament, the same argument applies for Controlling an Objective vs being out of LOS or some other scenario.

No it does not matter at all.

You roll all saves, then pick a model that failed, then the enemy rolls damage, you remove models and continue.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It actually does matter.

Scenario: You have one Tartaros Terminator model out of two within range of an objective marker. The Model in range has a combi-bolter, the model out of range has a Reaper Autocannon. You want the Reaper Autocannon to shoot at a thing but also want to control the objective.

You take 10 wounds. Now, following the rules you need to decide which model you'll take each save on one at a time, without knowledge of whether you're going to fail 10 wounds or 1 wound.

If you batch roll the saves and see you've only failed 1, you can make a calculated risk on putting the single wound on the Combi-Bolter dude and save the Reaper Autocannon, using information you should not have.

Even if they both have the same armament, the same argument applies for Controlling an Objective vs being out of LOS or some other scenario.

No it does not matter at all.

You roll all saves, then pick a model that failed, then the enemy rolls damage, you remove models and continue.

no that is not in the rules at all, you allocate wounds then roll saves then assign damage.

aldo1234 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It actually does matter.

Scenario: You have one Tartaros Terminator model out of two within range of an objective marker. The Model in range has a combi-bolter, the model out of range has a Reaper Autocannon. You want the Reaper Autocannon to shoot at a thing but also want to control the objective.

You take 10 wounds. Now, following the rules you need to decide which model you'll take each save on one at a time, without knowledge of whether you're going to fail 10 wounds or 1 wound.

If you batch roll the saves and see you've only failed 1, you can make a calculated risk on putting the single wound on the Combi-Bolter dude and save the Reaper Autocannon, using information you should not have.

Even if they both have the same armament, the same argument applies for Controlling an Objective vs being out of LOS or some other scenario.

No it does not matter at all.

You roll all saves, then pick a model that failed, then the enemy rolls damage, you remove models and continue.

no that is not in the rules at all, you allocate wounds then roll saves then assign damage.

That is literally what I said...

You roll all saves, then pick a model that failed, then the enemy rolls damage, you remove models and continue.

no that is not in the rules at all, you allocate wounds then roll saves then assign damage.

That is literally what I said...

allocate model then take saves is literally not the same as taking a bunch of saves then allocating model its the opposite.

Knowing how many saves you failed gives you more information to use when allocating those wounds to models than if you allocate wounds before knowing how many saves have been made.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Knowing how many saves you failed gives you more information to use when allocating those wounds to models than if you allocate wounds before knowing how many saves have been made.

I accept that. However, it's much more niche than is being presented here.

As the Moderators have confirmed before - this forum isn't just about RAW at the expense of all else. It's about advice in interpreting and implementing the rules in a way that is practical for real games.

If this is how you play, fine. But I have never played a game of 40k without both players fast rolling saves. It may be anecdotal, and I am absolutely believe that BCB at least does go through every step, but to me he is an extreme outlier and fast rolling saves is the way that people actually play the game.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Knowing how many saves you failed gives you more information to use when allocating those wounds to models than if you allocate wounds before knowing how many saves have been made.

it really does not.

There is no appreciable difference.

aldo1234 wrote:

You roll all saves, then pick a model that failed, then the enemy rolls damage, you remove models and continue.

no that is not in the rules at all, you allocate wounds then roll saves then assign damage.

That is literally what I said...

allocate model then take saves is literally not the same as taking a bunch of saves then allocating model its the opposite.

When fast rolling, you just pick the model that failed, then roll damage.

 Stux wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Knowing how many saves you failed gives you more information to use when allocating those wounds to models than if you allocate wounds before knowing how many saves have been made.

I accept that. However, it's much more niche than is being presented here.

As the Moderators have confirmed before - this forum isn't just about RAW at the expense of all else. It's about advice in interpreting and implementing the rules in a way that is practical for real games.

If this is how you play, fine. But I have never played a game of 40k without both players fast rolling saves. It may be anecdotal, and I am absolutely believe that BCB at least does go through every step, but to me he is an extreme outlier and fast rolling saves is the way that people actually play the game.

This is pretty much your answer. Generally speaking as long as the armor saves are the same you can fast roll them then do the damage. The most common time you are going to see it matter is if someone has a squad that is only partially in cover so they take the weaker saves on the models outside of cover first and once those models are dead then they take improved cover saves. If you fast roll them at the same time then all of the saves will be out of cover which is a big difference. Most opponents are fine with fast rolling, especially if you ask "can I just fast roll all the armor saves then let you roll for damage?"

Removing models out of cover first will not allow you to use cover saves once they are the only ones left. The shots happened simultaneously.

There is no appreciable difference.

aldo1234 wrote:

You roll all saves, then pick a model that failed, then the enemy rolls damage, you remove models and continue.

no that is not in the rules at all, you allocate wounds then roll saves then assign damage.

That is literally what I said...

allocate model then take saves is literally not the same as taking a bunch of saves then allocating model its the opposite.

When fast rolling, you just pick the model that failed, then roll damage.

aldo1234 wrote:


There is no appreciable difference.

aldo1234 wrote:

You roll all saves, then pick a model that failed, then the enemy rolls damage, you remove models and continue.

no that is not in the rules at all, you allocate wounds then roll saves then assign damage.

That is literally what I said...

allocate model then take saves is literally not the same as taking a bunch of saves then allocating model its the opposite.

When fast rolling, you just pick the model that failed, then roll damage.

but you cant fast roll when they have different damage, so you cant do that.

just because 95% of the time it doesn't matter shouldn't mean we ignore the actual rules, if i shoot a battlecannon at a unit of primaris and score 4 wounds, i will make the opponent roll each save one at a time because each wound could result in a kill, if he rolls all at once (which he cant do due to RAW) and the damage is two 1's and two 3's they can say, put 1 damage on them then put 3 on him repeated and loose only 2.

This is why you roll the damage dice one at a time. You make 4 wounds. 3 failed saves. Roll a d3. Allocate the wounds to a model. Take FNP saves if applicable. Remove models as they die. But making the armor saves for all successful wounds together has no real impact. Yes, doing so is RAW but it is so tedious and slows the game down for no significant purpose. It will never impact how many models die. It could potentially influence wound allocation as in BCB's scenario, but no one really cares about this as the impact is so minute. It's one of those things that people do to make the game practical.

I would imagine that you can also abuse multiple damage weapons to some extent as the attacker, if you eliminate fast rolling.

EG: Targeting a unit of Meganobs (3 wound each) with a unit with 8 bolters and 2 plasmaguns, overcharging.

As you roll to hit, to wound, save, damage for each attack, one after the other, as per RAW, you can fire plasmagun first and do 2 damage, then fire bolters one at a time until the last wound is removed, then fire the second plasmagun and repeat.

Same principle for any unit with weapons which will overkill in 2 shots. 2 lascannons & bolters vs any 6-7 wound model in units, fire one lascannon, do 5 damage, chip last wounds off with bolters, then fire second lascannon once you're onto the next model. Fast rolling would take this utility away.

Orbei wrote:
Removing models out of cover first will not allow you to use cover saves once they are the only ones left. The shots happened simultaneously.

Erm except it absolutely does. Go to the beginning where it says attacks can be done one at a time. Most people fast roll the hits and wounds together, but if you are doing things absolutely the slowest most precise way possible it should be hit->wound->allocate->save->damage for each individual attack on each individual model. Now look at the right hand side of the page in the section marked "Terrain and Cover" which states that units gain cover if every model is on or within the terrain piece. This means each time you go through the FULL SEQUENCE hit->wound->allocate->save->damage you check to see if the entire unit is within cover at the "save" step. If private Pyle got himself killed after failing his armor save during the shooter's first full sequence then the second full sequence will see that the entire unit is within cover because private Pyle is no longer standing in the open. Edit: It also explicitly states that this is possible in the BRB FAQ. Page 4 on the Right hand side.

We've already had this argument. Why are we having it again?

Generally speaking, no one is gonna mind if you "fastroll" everything, so long as the weapons you're using all do the same thing with no random variables. Which is most weapons in the game. But once you have attacks with special rules (Genestealers and Kastellans, for example, have special rules when getting a 6+ on a Wounding Roll) or random damage, you need to roll them individually. Rule of thumb: check with your opponent first, and be aware of what your and their weapons do, before fastrolling anything but Hit rolls.

 DominayTrix wrote:

Orbei wrote:
Removing models out of cover first will not allow you to use cover saves once they are the only ones left. The shots happened simultaneously.

Erm except it absolutely does. Go to the beginning where it says attacks can be done one at a time. Most people fast roll the hits and wounds together, but if you are doing things absolutely the slowest most precise way possible it should be hit->wound->allocate->save->damage for each individual attack on each individual model. Now look at the right hand side of the page in the section marked "Terrain and Cover" which states that units gain cover if every model is on or within the terrain piece. This means each time you go through the FULL SEQUENCE hit->wound->allocate->save->damage you check to see if the entire unit is within cover at the "save" step. If private Pyle got himself killed after failing his armor save during the shooter's first full sequence then the second full sequence will see that the entire unit is within cover because private Pyle is no longer standing in the open. Edit: It also explicitly states that this is possible in the BRB FAQ. Page 4 on the Right hand side.

Huh! Just checked and looks like I had that wrong, thanks. So, when a squad is partially in cover fast rolling will skew things. Outside that, however, (i.e. the armor saves won't potentially change), just roll them all at once.

Orbei wrote:

 DominayTrix wrote:

Orbei wrote:
Removing models out of cover first will not allow you to use cover saves once they are the only ones left. The shots happened simultaneously.

Erm except it absolutely does. Go to the beginning where it says attacks can be done one at a time. Most people fast roll the hits and wounds together, but if you are doing things absolutely the slowest most precise way possible it should be hit->wound->allocate->save->damage for each individual attack on each individual model. Now look at the right hand side of the page in the section marked "Terrain and Cover" which states that units gain cover if every model is on or within the terrain piece. This means each time you go through the FULL SEQUENCE hit->wound->allocate->save->damage you check to see if the entire unit is within cover at the "save" step. If private Pyle got himself killed after failing his armor save during the shooter's first full sequence then the second full sequence will see that the entire unit is within cover because private Pyle is no longer standing in the open. Edit: It also explicitly states that this is possible in the BRB FAQ. Page 4 on the Right hand side.

Huh! Just checked and looks like I had that wrong, thanks. So, when a squad is partially in cover fast rolling will skew things. Outside that, however, (i.e. the armor saves won't potentially change), just roll them all at once.

No problem. I have never had an opponent tell me to roll things one at a time because I could have potentially more informed decisions, but I have had plenty of people ask to take their saves one at a time due to cover. I like to head canon that the rest of the squad is just watching as each enemy takes turns taking potshots at the idiot in the open and once that guy gets blasted everything goes back to normal.