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A good point about the cover situation! Another reason why you should not fast roll saves (as if the fact the game doesn't give permission to do so isn't enough).

 BaconCatBug wrote:
A good point about the cover situation! Another reason why you should not fast roll saves (as if the fact the game doesn't give permission to do so isn't enough).

Absolutely agree in the cover situation, of course you cannot fast roll then.

You shouldn’t fast roll in the situations presented in this thread.

Like I said, there's instances where fastrolling is not appropriate, and instances where it can be perfectly fine. For example, if I manage to charge in 30 Choppa Boyz buffed by Ghaz and Warpath and somehow get all 30 of them within range of CC, do you *really* want to individually roll the 181 attacks that unit has? Even if you just fastroll the to-hit, you'll still have an average of 150 Wound rolls to get through. It's not unreasonable to assume that, if all the models in both the attacking unit and the defending unit have the same profiles, that fastrolling is the preferable choice. Depending on the units in question, it can make the difference between 2 minutes of rolling and 30 minutes.

 flandarz wrote:
Like I said, there's instances where fastrolling is not appropriate, and instances where it can be perfectly fine. For example, if I manage to charge in 30 Choppa Boyz buffed by Ghaz and Warpath and somehow get all 30 of them within range of CC, do you *really* want to individually roll the 181 attacks that unit has? Even if you just fastroll the to-hit, you'll still have an average of 150 Wound rolls to get through. It's not unreasonable to assume that, if all the models in both the attacking unit and the defending unit have the same profiles, that fastrolling is the preferable choice. Depending on the units in question, it can make the difference between 2 minutes of rolling and 30 minutes.

The difference is you're given permission to fast roll your attacks, not anything else.

In practice, I'd be willing to put money on 99.9999% of people preferring that you fastroll those 150 Wound attempts, rather than roll them individually. No, we are not given permission to do so. But we also live in a real world where the (hypothetical) point of the game is to have fun. And unnecessarily going through rolls individually is not fun.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
You shouldn’t fast roll in the situations presented in this thread.

This. If it's a situation where slow rolling matters vs fast rolling, like the situations we've had here, fast rolling should not be used. If it's a case where it doesn't matter and the opponent is okay with fast rolling the saves then, hey, you've made a house rule on the fly. As the thread's shown, however, it's not true to say that it never matters if you fast roll the dice. It's all situational.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
Like I said, there's instances where fastrolling is not appropriate, and instances where it can be perfectly fine. For example, if I manage to charge in 30 Choppa Boyz buffed by Ghaz and Warpath and somehow get all 30 of them within range of CC, do you *really* want to individually roll the 181 attacks that unit has? Even if you just fastroll the to-hit, you'll still have an average of 150 Wound rolls to get through. It's not unreasonable to assume that, if all the models in both the attacking unit and the defending unit have the same profiles, that fastrolling is the preferable choice. Depending on the units in question, it can make the difference between 2 minutes of rolling and 30 minutes.

The difference is you're given permission to fast roll your attacks, not anything else.

Which is a difference everyone playing in the real world happily ignores because it's no difference at all over 99% of the time.

There are situations where fast rolling might not be appropriate but as long as you know when those situations are there's no problem fast rolling at all other times regardless of what the rules say.

In general, I am fine with fast rolling hits, wounds and saves. But I'm a stickler for Damage rolls on multi-wound model units, specifically because of "lost" damage.

The cover situation is also important to take "1" at a time. However, I find you can still fast roll in those situations, so long as you only roll the number of saves equal to the number of models outside cover and those are the models you are allocating to. Once all the models outside cover are dead, now you can roll the rest of the saves.

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This has been quite informative! I didn’t think of those scenarios and didn’t realize you can allocate wound on out of cover units until the squad is completely in cover.

The concept of allocating after knowing the results regarding control points is also very interesting. Wondering if there are more scenarios where this would make a difference.

I’d also like to ask another questions as to how you determine rapid fire range since we have such informed posters here. So I rapid fire into a squad of Ork Boyz, but 10 out of 30 models are outside of rapid fore range of my storm bolters, assuming I do kill the 20 units and still have 7 shots left. Do I automatically round that down to 3 shots left since those units would not have been in rapid fire range? This seems like it would also require me to perhaps roll 20 hit results at a time.

It also confuses me as it matters for model to model range, however how can you determine which model is shooting at which individual, especially if the shooters and targets are at a V formation pointing at each other and the front shots from the firing units get used up quickly.

Scenario:

3 out of 10 marines are in rapid fire range of 3 out of 30 units.

A) 3 units fire and don’t kill those 3 units. The rest fire non rapid fire shots.

B) target player allocates first wound to front target and removes them, reducing one more marine from rapid fire range.

C) those 3 units died to less than half the rapid fire shots of the initial 3 marines. How do I calculate those extra shots now? I assume if I had 2 shots left from a Storm Bolter it would simply be considered gone.

Note that if , during a tournament, you want to do your ultra precise 1 shot per time rolling in a situation where its not super duper relevant I will call a judge on your ass for time abuse or grab a chess clock and laugh as you timeout in turn 2 and I get to play for another hour without you reacting.

Yes there are some very niche situations where you need precision, most of the time your able to fast roll in some manner. Even with half a squad in/out of cover you can roll as many saves as you have models out of cover and repeat until they are all dead before then rolling the remainder (if any) for those in cover.

 Ordana wrote:
Note that if , during a tournament, you want to do your ultra precise 1 shot per time rolling in a situation where its not super duper relevant I will call a judge on your ass for time abuse or grab a chess clock and laugh as you timeout in turn 2 and I get to play for another hour without you reacting.

Yes there are some very niche situations where you need precision, most of the time your able to fast roll in some manner. Even with half a squad in/out of cover you can roll as many saves as you have models out of cover and repeat until they are all dead before then rolling the remainder (if any) for those in cover.

It doesn't matter whether your fast rolled saves are applicable in most situations. The fact of the matter is the given allowance for fast rolling takes into account potential sequencing & its results, and any fast rolling outside of the given allowance may or may not change the results.

Obviously in this given case the sequencing DOES matter (your "super duper relevant" case), which reinforces the fact that fast roll SHOULDN'T be used to determine the results.

Fast rolling is a generally accepted shorthand when the results don't matter. It still doesn't mean you're not inserting a house rule to speed up the game.

sidebar of page 179 of the rulebook.
Hardly a house rule.

In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls. Your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time, making the saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate.

Fast rolling for anything other than what the rules permit is a house rule.

 JNAProductions wrote:

GameDadZ wrote:
Huh... any particular reason to do that? Assuming it comes from my rapid fire battle cannons, ap2, the entire squad with no mixed armor would need a 6 to save.

Edit: I see it is the strict reading. Maybe I’ll remember that for tournaments by GW stores. Don’t think it’s a problem nornallly.

BCB is a very strict RAW kinda person. No one cares if you fastroll saves, except him.

Edit: Not even GW cares. It's really just him.

That depends. Since you are the one rolling for attacks, that makes a huge difference when a squad is armed with different weapons. Not only you are not required to fast-roll saves, you are not required to fast-roll attacks either. Take for example my main army, GSC: I have acolyte hybrids units, some with the basic knife + claws, some with heavy rock saws. If I'm facing multi-wounds units, then I do NOT roll all my attacks altogether. Say for example that the enemy unit has 3 wounds: I first roll for ONE saw-armed model, if both attacks connect or both fail then I proceed with another model with a saw, if only one attack goes through I start selecting "regular" models (knife + claws) to attack, until I deal at least one wound, and then proceed accordingly (if the regular model dealt 2 wounds, killing the first injured model and injuring another, then it's time for another saw, if it dealt only 1 wound then it's saws time again, if it dealt 3 wounds it's better to attack with another regular model, not with one with a saw). The point is, you can try to maximize your wounds output, when facing multi-wounds models with a squad armed in different ways. Of course, against single-wound models, or with a squad where all members are equipped with the same gear, it makes no difference whatsoever, and you can (and should) fast-roll dice.

Teschio wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

GameDadZ wrote:
Huh... any particular reason to do that? Assuming it comes from my rapid fire battle cannons, ap2, the entire squad with no mixed armor would need a 6 to save.

Edit: I see it is the strict reading. Maybe I’ll remember that for tournaments by GW stores. Don’t think it’s a problem nornallly.

BCB is a very strict RAW kinda person. No one cares if you fastroll saves, except him.

Edit: Not even GW cares. It's really just him.

That depends. Since you are the one rolling for attacks, that makes a huge difference when a squad is armed with different weapons. Not only you are not required to fast-roll saves, you are not required to fast-roll attacks either. Take for example my main army, GSC: I have acolyte hybrids units, some with the basic knife + claws, some with heavy rock saws. If I'm facing multi-wounds units, then I do NOT roll all my attacks altogether. Say for example that the enemy unit has 3 wounds: I first roll for ONE saw-armed model, if both attacks connect or both fail then I proceed with another model with a saw, if only one attack goes through I start selecting "regular" models (knife + claws) to attack, until I deal at least one wound, and then proceed accordingly (if the regular model dealt 2 wounds, killing the first injured model and injuring another, then it's time for another saw, if it dealt only 1 wound then it's saws time again, if it dealt 3 wounds it's better to attack with another regular model, not with one with a saw). The point is, you can try to maximize your wounds output, when facing multi-wounds models with a squad armed in different ways. Of course, against single-wound models, or with a squad where all members are equipped with the same gear, it makes no difference whatsoever, and you can (and should) fast-roll dice.

What an interesting idea! Never thought of it with mixed melee units even though I don’t have them. Does this work the same way mixed ranged weapons? You can fire a lascannon, then a bolter, than a missile, then a bolter? Seems like your opponent would be pretty annoyed.

GameDadZ wrote:

Teschio wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

GameDadZ wrote:
Huh... any particular reason to do that? Assuming it comes from my rapid fire battle cannons, ap2, the entire squad with no mixed armor would need a 6 to save.

Edit: I see it is the strict reading. Maybe I’ll remember that for tournaments by GW stores. Don’t think it’s a problem nornallly.

BCB is a very strict RAW kinda person. No one cares if you fastroll saves, except him.

Edit: Not even GW cares. It's really just him.

That depends. Since you are the one rolling for attacks, that makes a huge difference when a squad is armed with different weapons. Not only you are not required to fast-roll saves, you are not required to fast-roll attacks either. Take for example my main army, GSC: I have acolyte hybrids units, some with the basic knife + claws, some with heavy rock saws. If I'm facing multi-wounds units, then I do NOT roll all my attacks altogether. Say for example that the enemy unit has 3 wounds: I first roll for ONE saw-armed model, if both attacks connect or both fail then I proceed with another model with a saw, if only one attack goes through I start selecting "regular" models (knife + claws) to attack, until I deal at least one wound, and then proceed accordingly (if the regular model dealt 2 wounds, killing the first injured model and injuring another, then it's time for another saw, if it dealt only 1 wound then it's saws time again, if it dealt 3 wounds it's better to attack with another regular model, not with one with a saw). The point is, you can try to maximize your wounds output, when facing multi-wounds models with a squad armed in different ways. Of course, against single-wound models, or with a squad where all members are equipped with the same gear, it makes no difference whatsoever, and you can (and should) fast-roll dice.

What an interesting idea! Never thought of it with mixed melee units even though I don’t have them. Does this work the same way mixed ranged weapons? You can fire a lascannon, then a bolter, than a missile, then a bolter? Seems like your opponent would be pretty annoyed.

Yep, nothing says you have to fast-roll, nor roll in groups of weapon, so yeah, you can shoot at killa kans and chip all but 1 wound off with a lascannon, then fire bolters until the last wound goes, then fire the missile at the next, fresh kan.

If I'm reading correctly, you do have to roll all the dice for each attack at once, however, so if in rapid fire you have to roll 2 shots at a time with the bolters (even if you choose to roll the dice separately).


Further to the shooting at cover example, fast rolling to hit and wound actually impacts this a lot as well. If I have a unit of orks, with 10 models ahead of cover and 10 models in cover, knowing how many saves I will have to roll will impact my wound allocation. If you roll badly and get 5 wounds, I'll take them on the models at the back to keep the unit closer to charging. If you roll well and get 20 wounds, I'll take them on the front models first to try and get cover once they are dead and so keep some of the unit alive. If you're doing it one at a time, as the rules say you should, I won't know what the next 19 shots will do when I take that first save, so don't know where best to allocate it.

I still prefer fast rolling and giving the opponent a bit of an advantage in this to slow-rolling and getting home at 2 in the morning, having packed up on turn 2.

Nevermind, think I got this wrong.

Awesome great answers, learned a lot here.

Hey guys, I must have misunderstood some things that were implied in this topic. If I have a unit and half of them are in cover, can I choose the ones in cover to take fire first? Or do I need to wait for all the units out of cover to die first before taking cover hits? I was playing at the GW store and was told that all units out of cover must take their saves before those in cover.

GameDadZ wrote:
Hey guys, I must have misunderstood some things that were implied in this topic. If I have a unit and half of them are in cover, can I choose the ones in cover to take fire first? Or do I need to wait for all the units out of cover to die first before taking cover hits? I was playing at the GW store and was told that all units out of cover must take their saves before those in cover.

Units are only in cover if every model in the unit is within cover, so a unit half in cover and half out can never claim a cover bonus. However, what you can do is take the saves for the models out of cover first and, once all the models out of cover have died, then get the cover bonus for the remainder.

You can choose the ones in cover to die first. But they won't benefit from the bonus to Save throws that being in cover provides. You can only get that Modifier if all the models in your unit are in cover. So removing models from cover and leaving the ones outside of it... might not be the best idea.

Oh so I can choose the ones in cover to die but it won’t count as cover... now that makes sense.

In regards to random damage weapons, if you are rolling d3/d6 the correct way to role it is,
Roll to hit
Roll to wound
Roll to save
Roll to do damage,
if the models are single wound models with no FnP all damage can be rolled at once
If models are single wound with fnp, damage can be rolled all at once
If model is multi wound 2 with or with out fnp, damage may be rolled all at once
If multi wound with 3 with or without fnp damage is slow rolled

The only time damage needs to be rolled one at a time is 3 wounds or more per model.

Fnp roles are taken one damage allocation at a time. Meaning if I rolled 4 wounds and rolled my 4 damage roles, 1,2,2,3 the fnp roles must be slow rolled.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
In regards to random damage weapons, if you are rolling d3/d6 the correct way to role it is,
Roll to hit
Roll to wound
Roll to save
Roll to do damage,
if the models are single wound models with no FnP all damage can be rolled at once
If models are single wound with fnp, damage can be rolled all at once
If model is multi wound 2 with or with out fnp, damage may be rolled all at once
If multi wound with 3 with or without fnp damage is slow rolled

The only time damage needs to be rolled one at a time is 3 wounds or more per model.

Fnp roles are taken one damage allocation at a time. Meaning if I rolled 4 wounds and rolled my 4 damage roles, 1,2,2,3 the fnp roles must be slow rolled.

This is incorrect. As I already explained in a previous post, you must always roll damage and ignore wounds individually because it makes a difference even against 1W models.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
This is incorrect. As I already explained in a previous post, you must always roll damage and ignore wounds individually because it makes a difference even against 1W models.

This is incorrect.

Fast Dice Rolling
The rules for resolving attacks have been written assuming you will make them one at a time. However, it is possible to speed up your battles by rolling the dice for similar attacks together. In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls.
.
.
.

If you fast roll your attacks, you must also fast roll the wound rolls, even with multi damage weapons, like D3/D6. You have no permission to roll wounds one at a time.

 p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
This is incorrect. As I already explained in a previous post, you must always roll damage and ignore wounds individually because it makes a difference even against 1W models.

This is incorrect.

Fast Dice Rolling
The rules for resolving attacks have been written assuming you will make them one at a time. However, it is possible to speed up your battles by rolling the dice for similar attacks together. In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls.
.
.
.

If you fast roll your attacks, you must also fast roll the wound rolls, even with multi damage weapons, like D3/D6. You have no permission to roll wounds one at a time.

Please re-read my post. I am not talking about to wound rolls. A weapon being multi-damage has nothing to do with the To Wound roll. I am talking about the Ignore Wound ability type (such as Disgustingly Resistant or Catalyst).

Ok, sorry. Misread your post.

Still, when you fast roll attacks, you must also fast roll wounds. If you do that your opponent can allocate them one at a time, making you lose damage, if he has multi wound models.

 p5freak wrote:
Ok, sorry. Misread your post.

Still, when you fast roll attacks, you must also fast roll wounds. If you do that your opponent can allocate them one at a time, making you lose damage, if he has multi wound models.

There are situations that you shouldn't fast roll wounds however, especially for attacks that have abilities that trigger on a certain roll. Some quick examples are Bloodletters, who do 2 damage on a wound roll of 6+, Daemonettes, who's weapon becomes ap -4 on a wound roll of a 6+, and Nurgle Daemons who's locus increases their damage by 1 on a roll of a 6+.

I suspect most people are happy to house rule fast rolling the to-hits, and slow rolling the to-wounds.

JakeSiren wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Ok, sorry. Misread your post.

Still, when you fast roll attacks, you must also fast roll wounds. If you do that your opponent can allocate them one at a time, making you lose damage, if he has multi wound models.

There are situations that you shouldn't fast roll wounds however, especially for attacks that have abilities that trigger on a certain roll. Some quick examples are Bloodletters, who do 2 damage on a wound roll of 6+, Daemonettes, who's weapon becomes ap -4 on a wound roll of a 6+, and Nurgle Daemons who's locus increases their damage by 1 on a roll of a 6+.

I suspect most people are happy to house rule fast rolling the to-hits, and slow rolling the to-wounds.

Neither of those cases matter if you fast roll or not. The opponent still gets to allocate where the enhanced wounds go.