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You mean the 3" move into a charging target which will then proceed to direct as many attacks as possible into that character because it still goes first? That seems 100% exactly the same a a 2d6" move that still gives you a 50% chance of attacking before the opposing unit.

As we mentioned in the other thread, the point isn't to actually hurt the unit you moved into. It's to deny your opponent a Shooting Phase with that unit. As long as you can be reasonably certain at least 1 of your Scouts will survive the coming Fight Phase, you can avoid the Overwatch of a good shooting unit and deny it the ability to shoot on your opponent's turn (assuming it ain't got a special ability to fallback and shoot, obviously).

There are definitely reasons to think that it is not intentional that you can move to within 1" of Enemy models using Go Recon or VMT. Tt is also clear from the RAW that it is legal. Just like how movement VMT doesn't benefit from Fly because it isn't in the Movement or Charge phases.

These both seem to fall into the GW Can't Write Rules or GW Needs a Technical Rules Editor camp as adding "As if the Movement Phase" would clean up a lot about the rules, preventing both from being used as fake charges and allowing VMT to actually Fly.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
So tell me what rules for moving the model you’re using if not implicitly using the Movement Phase rules...

Anyone bleating about RAW wanna actually address this? Bit of a hole in your reasoning.

The movement phase rules define broadly how to move models while playing the game, but also specifically prohibit moving within an inch of enemy models "in the movement phase". Go Recon is movement, but not as if in the movement phase. This sort of movement follows the broad rules applying to every and any phase, but not the specific restrictions placed upon the movement phase. Disagreeing with the intent is fine and completely understandable, but the reasoning behind the people "bleating about RAW" is very sound.

I may have found Something in the brb FAQ. Specifically the Change to movement Phase rules on page 177 (the additional Paragraph regarding Interactions with Flyers) the second Paragraph says:

Whenever a model makes any kind of move, it can be moved within 1" of enemy Aircraft, and it can be moved across such models (and their bases) as if they were not there, but it cannot end the move on top of another model (or its base), and it cannot end the move within 1" of any enemy units.


WHENEVER a model makes ANY kind of move may be the Key here

This change only affects aircraft units. Has nothing to do with this.

 p5freak wrote:
This change only affects aircraft units. Has nothing to do with this.

Did you even bother to read the Paragraphs that were being added to the movement Phase? Of course their main purpose is Interactions with Flyers. Still it says: If a model makes any kind of move... It cannot end its move within 1" of enemy Models.

Morkphoiz wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
This change only affects aircraft units. Has nothing to do with this.

Did you even bother to read the Paragraphs that were being added to the movement Phase? Of course their main purpose is Interactions with Flyers. Still it says: If a model makes any kind of move... It cannot end its move within 1" of enemy Models.

Yes, i read it. Did you ? Its still a rule of the movement phase. Go recon doesnt say as if its the movement phase. RAW, you can move within 1" of enemy models.

Orbei wrote:
The movement phase rules define broadly how to move models while playing the game, but also specifically prohibit moving within an inch of enemy models "in the movement phase". Go Recon is movement, but not as if in the movement phase. This sort of movement follows the broad rules applying to every and any phase, but not the specific restrictions placed upon the movement phase. Disagreeing with the intent is fine and completely understandable, but the reasoning behind the people "bleating about RAW" is very sound.

Nope. What rules are they using? You can’t use rules you aren’t allowed to by their take. They’re using rules implicitly as if the MP then ignoring part of them to suit their hot take. They either can’t move at all or they follow the rules, or they destroy their own logic.

When you move a model you use the movement phase rules. But go recon doesnt happen in the movement phase, and it does not say as if its the movement phase. Therefore the restriction of not being able to move within 1" of enemy models does not apply.

Citation for your first sentence, please. That’s an inference not RAW as is being claimed. RAW, there are no rules for moving in e.g. the Shooting Phase.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Citation for your first sentence, please. That’s an inference not RAW as is being claimed. RAW, there are no rules for moving in e.g. the Shooting Phase.

Common sense, logic, english language. RAW, the game is unplayable. Everyone, even BCB, knows that we have to use six sided dice with 1-6 on it, the rules dont mention it.

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Citation for your first sentence, please. That’s an inference not RAW as is being claimed. RAW, there are no rules for moving in e.g. the Shooting Phase.

Common sense, logic, english language. RAW, the game is unplayable. Everyone, even BCB, knows that we have to use six sided dice with 1-6 on it, the rules dont mention it.

Agree on common sense, which includes not ignoring part of the rules you’re implicitly following.

 Kriswall wrote:

Spoiler:

 flandarz wrote:
It is even MORE nebulous, yes. Check the thread about the Tau Vectored Maneuvering Thrusters. It doesn't even say: "Cannot charge or shoot" as an after-clause.

You can't really claim that it's the way "things are set up" unless we can find some precedent. Another example of GW saying: "Yeah, moving within 1" of an opponent outside of the Charge or Fight Phases is A-OK." As BCB mentioned, if 8th Edition is all about "bespoke" rules, then it stands to reason that you can't say that moving within 1" is "the way things are set up."

And, lastly, it's still pretty apparent that, at least in this case, the Stratagem isn't meant for movement within 1". As per the clause: "cannot shoot or charge this turn". If they had wanted you to use it to move within 1", I doubt very much they would have cared enough to forbid using it before charging. Wouldn't make much sense, now would it?

I think the intent is very unclear. The authors are very obviously aware that they require an "as if it was the movement phase" clause to prevent movement to within 1" of an enemy. The fact that they didn't include this clause indicates that they either made a mistake or intentionally left it out. An argument can be made for both options (hence why we're all on the internet arguing). My take is that Scout Sentinels are supposed to be stealthy. "Go! Recon!" is essentially allowing a Scout Sentinel to trade it's shooting attack for some super stealthy additional movement... movement that allows you to sneak up and surprise someone in combat. The good news is that the enemy doesn't see you coming and doesn't get to overwatch. The bad news is that because you're moving so sneakily, you're not going to get to attack first like you would if you'd just run in.

It's not like a Scout Sentinel "stealth charge" strategy is dominating the competitive scene right now. I'm sure this isn't a high priority GW issue.

(Emphasis mine)
It's not like the strat is called "Go! Hit them!" or even "Go! Harass!" or "Go! Hamper!". I'd say there's power in a name or, in this case, at least there's hints in a name.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Orbei wrote:
The movement phase rules define broadly how to move models while playing the game, but also specifically prohibit moving within an inch of enemy models "in the movement phase". Go Recon is movement, but not as if in the movement phase. This sort of movement follows the broad rules applying to every and any phase, but not the specific restrictions placed upon the movement phase. Disagreeing with the intent is fine and completely understandable, but the reasoning behind the people "bleating about RAW" is very sound.

Nope. What rules are they using? You can’t use rules you aren’t allowed to by their take. They’re using rules implicitly as if the MP then ignoring part of them to suit their hot take. They either can’t move at all or they follow the rules, or they destroy their own logic.

The movement phase rules contain general rules for moving models which apply to movement in other phases, as well as the specific restriction of not moving within 1" while moving in the movement phase. If this were not true you could not move the model at all. Moving within 1" fulfills everything written in the rules - it satisfies "Go Recon" and adheres to the rules for moving models, and as it does not occur as if in the movement phase that clause does not apply. The wording of "as if in X phase" is specific, well defined and a recurring part of rules writing in the game. It tells you when the rules specific to a phase apply and when they don't. That restriction is not broadly applied to movement in the game, it is specifically applied to the movement phase. Otherwise, models can move within an inch.

It's just like shooting and overwatch. Overwatch does not occur as if shooting in the shooting phase. However, the rules for shooting are still found in the shooting phase rules, and you follow them. Rules/abilities which are specific to the shooting phase do not apply, though.

The specific overrides the general is a phrase people like to toss around. The opposite is also true; lacking the specific, the general still applies. In this case we lack a specific restriction of "as if in the movement phase". The general rules for movement are still followed

Again, citation for that please. Lots of interpretations that are masquerading as RAW

It was already clearly cited in the thread I previously linked.

How do you think overwatch works? Do you follow the rules for rolling to hit/wound/armor saves/weapon types etc found in the shooting phase?

Orbei wrote:
It was already clearly cited in the thread I previously linked.

How do you think overwatch works? Do you follow the rules for rolling to hit/wound/armor saves/weapon types etc found in the shooting phase?

Overwatch doesnt work, for him Because there are no rules in the charge phase to shoot, according to him

Right. So if there are no rules for moving with Go Recon, there are also no rules for overwatch. Therefore just charge the sentinel and the rest of your army and your opponent has no rules to shoot you. It's nonsense. The rules for actions are defined throughout the various phase sections of the rules, along with specific rules relating to that phase itself. The 1" restriction is very clearly specific. "In the movement phase" has meaning! You can't just ignore it.

 p5freak wrote:

Orbei wrote:
It was already clearly cited in the thread I previously linked.

How do you think overwatch works? Do you follow the rules for rolling to hit/wound/armor saves/weapon types etc found in the shooting phase?

Overwatch doesnt work, for him Because there are no rules in the charge phase to shoot, according to him

Did I say that? No. Because there are, spelt out in the core rules. Stop the attempts to ridicule me with things I haven’t said. So let’s move on from this distraction and tarring attempt. Focus on what I’ve asked you.

Now, demonstrate where there are rules that say what *you* are saying. They don’t exist. You can’t claim RAW purism whilst using inferred rules, and whilst ignoring part of those inferred rules. It’s a ludicrous line of argument.

To me, the intent is screamingly obvious that only Charging and HI allow you to move within 1”, barring unique special rules.

Rules for movement are also found in the core rules. Where is the restriction for moving within 1" of enemy models? What does it say? Is it phase specific?

 JohnnyHell wrote:
To me, the intent is screamingly obvious that only Charging and HI allow you to move within 1”, barring unique special rules.

Don't you mean you can only move within 1" of the enemy when you Charge, Heroically Intervene, Pile In, or Consolidate?

So you can move within 1" of Enemy Models in every instance you are allowed to move within the Core Rules except the Movement Phase, right?

Isn't it interesting that the only time you can't move within 1" of Enemy Models in the Core Rules is the one time the rules explicitly tell you that you can't?

 alextroy wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
To me, the intent is screamingly obvious that only Charging and HI allow you to move within 1”, barring unique special rules.

Don't you mean you can only move within 1" of the enemy when you Charge, Heroically Intervene, Pile In, or Consolidate?

So you can move within 1" of Enemy Models in every instance you are allowed to move within the Core Rules except the Movement Phase, right?

Isn't it interesting that the only time you can't move within 1" of Enemy Models in the Core Rules is the one time the rules explicitly tell you that you can't?

Yes obviously all those things... sigh. Let’s assume I know the core rules eh?

So, again, my question is what rules are people using to govern movement in phases that don’t normally allow movement? It’s be great if someone could provide some actual RAW support instead of just typing ‘this is RAW’ in an effort to lend their take credibility. From what they’re posting they’re using the Movement Phase rules, ergo moving as if it were the Movement Phase even without instruction, so why this belief they ignore a line?

Like, you’re implicitly using rules nothing tells you to use. We’re already into common sense territory, yet somehow this is RAW and we should ignore this one line. Nope.

Again, you follow the movement rules. Just like how you follow the shooting rules while shooting in phases other than the shooting phase. The only one wanting to ignore a line is you, conveniently wanting to ignore how the 1" restriction is specific to in the movement phase.

Even those who disagree with the intent should be able to understand the RAW. Seems like this was already settled.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
To me, the intent is screamingly obvious that only Charging and HI allow you to move within 1”, barring unique special rules.

Don't you mean you can only move within 1" of the enemy when you Charge, Heroically Intervene, Pile In, or Consolidate?

So you can move within 1" of Enemy Models in every instance you are allowed to move within the Core Rules except the Movement Phase, right?

Isn't it interesting that the only time you can't move within 1" of Enemy Models in the Core Rules is the one time the rules explicitly tell you that you can't?

Yes obviously all those things... sigh. Let’s assume I know the core rules eh?

Forgive me for assuming you actually meant what you said.

So, again, my question is what rules are people using to govern movement in phases that don’t normally allow movement? It’s be great if someone could provide some actual RAW support instead of just typing ‘this is RAW’ in an effort to lend their take credibility. From what they’re posting they’re using the Movement Phase rules, ergo moving as if it were the Movement Phase even without instruction, so why this belief they ignore a line?

Like, you’re implicitly using rules nothing tells you to use. We’re already into common sense territory, yet somehow this is RAW and we should ignore this one line. Nope.

The rules in the Core Rules under the heading Moving. Now I know you are going to say "but those are the rules for moving in the Movement Phase" and you would be wrong.

The rules for Warhammer 40K are written in a conversational style, not a technical style. They present each rule as you need it the first time you need it. They don't backtrack and include the rule a full the next time it is needed, nor do they generally reference you back to the prior instance. They assume you will go back to when they presented the rule and then follow it as written.

Thus, they don't detail how to move a model/unit when you do a Heroic Intervention, Charge Move, Pile In, or Consolidation move except to note any added stipulations from the normal rules for Moving as found in the Movement Phase part of the rules.

They also don't repeat all the rules for making a Shooting Attack under the rules for Overwatch, just noting the changes to a normal shooting attack. Note that "normal shooting attack" is never "defined" in the rules, the rules assuming you refer back to the rules presented in the Shooting Phase.

Need I go on?

This seems to be just covering the same ground as the previous thread, so I think we can move on here.

If in doubt, discuss with your opponent before the game.