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So I have a pet theory regarding the emperor that I wanted to discuss and get your opinion. I always liked the old lore (probably for nostalgia reasons) where the emperor was created by the last human shamans by committing ritual suicide to be eventually reborn as a single powerful entity.
But since that story is not canon anymore, I have my own theory: I like to believe that the emperor was created by the last old ones before their fall. In the fluff the old ones were pushed back when the necrontyr allied themselves with the c'than and also by the enslaver plague. So I like to think that in a last act of desperation the last of the old ones infused one human (maybe the one human who had the most psykic potential at the time) with their power to be anathema to the chaos gods and lead humanity to a point where they can overcome the necrontyr and the c'than.
Now this is all speculation of course, but I personally think it kinda fits for several reasons: the emperor was/is one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful mortal/semi-mortal psyker in the galaxy, as were the old ones. The connection between the emperor and the webway is also really interesting in that context, considering it also was created by the old ones.

This opens up some interesting possibilities in the lore. If the emperor was infused with the power of the old ones, maybe they also shared some of their knowledge with him. Which is an interesting thought considering the emperors skill with gene-crafting (custodes, thunder warriors and astartes) and the fact that the old ones themselves created many races. Maybe the emperors skill in guiding and shaping humanity into a race of psykers was not just due to his long life span and brilliance, but also because of knowledge he inherited from the old ones.

Now again I don't claim any of that is true in the fluff, but I like the idea.

Edit: Also I am deliberately ignoring the introduction of perpetuals to the lore....I don't like the concept.

Since when was that story made non canon?

The timeline doesn't match either as the Old Ones died looooong before humans were around.

pm713 wrote:
Since when was that story made non canon?

The timeline doesn't match either as the Old Ones died looooong before humans were around.

Well, the story with the shamans is very old lore and with the introduction of perpetuals (barf) and GW heavily implying that the emperor was one, it seems the old lore has somewhat been retconned.

Regarding the timeline: were they really? I mean the war in the heavens took place long before humanity took to the stars, but that doesn't mean that at the time the old ones fell there was no nascent humanity.

How does perpetuals suddenly change the origin of the big E?

not that i know everything about them but i though they still had to be "born" meaning they start somewhere.

you could still have him come from a big shaman explosion.

I guess better question would be why not make a second or anti Big E with the millions of psykers now present?

<crackpottheory>The Emperor is not an Old One - he is Morag-Hai, hiding from Slanesh.</crackpottheory>

 Desubot wrote:
How does perpetuals suddenly change the origin of the big E?

not that i know everything about them but i though they still had to be "born" meaning they start somewhere.

you could still have him come from a big shaman explosion.

I guess better question would be why not make a second or anti Big E with the millions of psykers now present?

That would seem illogical to me because the emperor is not the only perpetual (according to the lore), so the ritual suicide and subsequent rebirth would likely not have anything to do with him beeing a perpetual.

As to why not make a second E-money? I think even if they had the knowledge (which they don't because the imperium has been stagnating for ten thousand years and they often don't even understand their own tech...), it would lead to a schism. I mean the imperium is deeply fascistic, xenophobic and utterly brutal, in addition the ecclesiarchy has brainwashed everyone (except the custodes and most founding astartes) with their propaganda...so most people would likely not believe in the second coming of the emperor and take him for an impostor.

I still think my pet theory provides the emperor with a more elegant backstory.

Also, do you think if the emperor were to truly die in 40k, would he rise to godhood? I mean his consciousness must have gained vast amounts of power in the last ten thousand years.

Tiberias wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
How does perpetuals suddenly change the origin of the big E?

not that i know everything about them but i though they still had to be "born" meaning they start somewhere.

you could still have him come from a big shaman explosion.

I guess better question would be why not make a second or anti Big E with the millions of psykers now present?

That would seem illogical to me because the emperor is not the only perpetual (according to the lore), so the ritual suicide and subsequent rebirth would likely not have anything to do with him beeing a perpetual.

But that's what im saying how does the existence of perpetuals some how make his original birth of shamanocide not possible or retconed?

referring to

Tiberias wrote:

Well, the story with the shamans is very old lore and with the introduction of perpetuals (barf) and GW heavily implying that the emperor was one, it seems the old lore has somewhat been retconned.

I really like the original lore for biggie, 1000 shamans sacrificing themselves to empower one super shaman sounds badass. It would give him just enough humanity to empathize with "normies" but also give him foresight to shepard them to evolutionary pinnacle. Unfortunately even the best laid plans fail due to intervention of unforeseen forces.

 Desubot wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
How does perpetuals suddenly change the origin of the big E?

not that i know everything about them but i though they still had to be "born" meaning they start somewhere.

you could still have him come from a big shaman explosion.

I guess better question would be why not make a second or anti Big E with the millions of psykers now present?

That would seem illogical to me because the emperor is not the only perpetual (according to the lore), so the ritual suicide and subsequent rebirth would likely not have anything to do with him beeing a perpetual.

But that's what im saying how does the existence of perpetuals some how make his original birth of shamanocide not possible or retconed?

referring to

Tiberias wrote:

Well, the story with the shamans is very old lore and with the introduction of perpetuals (barf) and GW heavily implying that the emperor was one, it seems the old lore has somewhat been retconned.

I am not saying that the sacrifice could not have taken place because he was a perpetual, there are fan theories that say perpetuals are synonymous with shamans. I am just saying that this piece of lore is very old and GW has never renewed it so far, so it seem likely to me that they abandoned that particular piece of lore.

Tiberias wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Since when was that story made non canon?

The timeline doesn't match either as the Old Ones died looooong before humans were around.

Well, the story with the shamans is very old lore and with the introduction of perpetuals (barf) and GW heavily implying that the emperor was one, it seems the old lore has somewhat been retconned.

Regarding the timeline: were they really? I mean the war in the heavens took place long before humanity took to the stars, but that doesn't mean that at the time the old ones fell there was no nascent humanity.

The Eldar had their Empire when we were weird ocean things so there definitely wasn't humanity when there were Old Ones.

The Emperor being a Perpetual doesn't negate the shaman thing at all. Perpetuals need to be born somewhere, they didn't start at the dawn of existence.

pm713 wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Since when was that story made non canon?

The timeline doesn't match either as the Old Ones died looooong before humans were around.

Well, the story with the shamans is very old lore and with the introduction of perpetuals (barf) and GW heavily implying that the emperor was one, it seems the old lore has somewhat been retconned.

Regarding the timeline: were they really? I mean the war in the heavens took place long before humanity took to the stars, but that doesn't mean that at the time the old ones fell there was no nascent humanity.

The Eldar had their Empire when we were weird ocean things so there definitely wasn't humanity when there were Old Ones.

The Emperor being a Perpetual doesn't negate the shaman thing at all. Perpetuals need to be born somewhere, they didn't start at the dawn of existence.

Again, my point was not that the emperor being a perpetual negates the shaman fluff, but it seems to me that GW has somewhat abandoned that fluff, given how old it is.

Also do you reference any particular lore when you say there were no humans when the eldar had their empire? Because as far as I understand it, when the eldar were at their peak the human race already took to the stars. The eldar just ignored them in their arrogance. Also when Slaanesh was born and killed most of the eldar race, his scream dispersed the warp storms that kept terra isolated and cleard the way for the emperors great crusade....but the human race was dispersed among the stars way before that, otherwise there would not have been any human worlds to reclaim during the great crusade.

Tiberias wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Since when was that story made non canon?

The timeline doesn't match either as the Old Ones died looooong before humans were around.

Well, the story with the shamans is very old lore and with the introduction of perpetuals (barf) and GW heavily implying that the emperor was one, it seems the old lore has somewhat been retconned.

Regarding the timeline: were they really? I mean the war in the heavens took place long before humanity took to the stars, but that doesn't mean that at the time the old ones fell there was no nascent humanity.

The Eldar had their Empire when we were weird ocean things so there definitely wasn't humanity when there were Old Ones.

The Emperor being a Perpetual doesn't negate the shaman thing at all. Perpetuals need to be born somewhere, they didn't start at the dawn of existence.

Again, my point was not that the emperor being a perpetual negates the shaman fluff, but it seems to me that GW has somewhat abandoned that fluff, given how old it is.

Also do you reference any particular lore when you say there were no humans when the eldar had their empire? Because as far as I understand it, when the eldar were at their peak the human race already took to the stars. The eldar just ignored them in their arrogance. Also when Slaanesh was born and killed most of the eldar race, his scream dispersed the warp storms that kept terra isolated and cleard the way for the emperors great crusade....but the human race was dispersed among the stars way before that, otherwise there would not have been any human worlds to reclaim during the great crusade.

But that doesn't mean it's not canon. There's a difference between not mentioned and not canon.

The Eldar Empire lasted a very very long time. They were a race of immortals without any threats.
My source is Eldrad saying "We have sung songs of lament since before your ancestors crawled on their bellies from the sea. It's from the 3rd ed codex I think.

Yes, the eldar empire lasted a very long time, but as far as I know we also don't really know how long the dark age of technology lasted for humanity and how long the age of strife lasted. I mean humanity had expanded quite some bit during the dark age of technology, of course being dwarfed in size by the eldar empire.
I still don't think it's completely implausable that the emperor had a connection to the old ones, at least to the very last of them.

Edit: That Eldrad quote could also have been hyperbole, at least partly.

The Eldar Empire started before dinosaurs did. It's not that plausible that an Old One lived long enough to make the Emperor given that timeline. The DaoT and AoS and that relevant to the Old Ones.

Old doesn't mean no longer canon. There's no magic expiration date.

Also, eldar are way older than humanity. We know enough about the length of the age of strife and the dark age of technology (go look in your BRB) to have a pretty good idea that the year 40,000 is actually meant to be the year 40,000, not something like year 8,000,005.

Edit: This lines up with what's in the BRB about timelines as far as I remember. https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Warhammer_40,000_Universe

pm713 wrote:The Eldar Empire started before dinosaurs did. It's not that plausible that an Old One lived long enough to make the Emperor given that timeline. The DaoT and AoS and that relevant to the Old Ones.

troa wrote:Old doesn't mean no longer canon. There's no magic expiration date.

Also, eldar are way older than humanity. We know enough about the length of the age of strife and the dark age of technology (go look in your BRB) to have a pretty good idea that the year 40,000 is actually meant to be the year 40,000, not something like year 8,000,005.

Edit: This lines up with what's in the BRB about timelines as far as I remember. https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Warhammer_40,000_Universe

I am sorry but I really want to know your sources on this. If you look on page 28 on the 3rd edition necrons codex it states that the night bringer devoured other c'tan. The old ones struck back and the c'tan had to retreat into their crypts. It also states that at that time the night bringer feasted on so many spiecies that they developed a primal fear of death (save the orks), the eldar called him kaelis ra and the just developing human race called him the reaper. So there were humans at that time according to the lore.
Also necron codex page 9 "shadowgames" states that the old ones did interact with the human race.

I have the necron codex 3rd ed and just checked this myself, so unless you can present me with lore that disputes this my theory regarding old emps is still plausible.

Again, go look at the BRB's lore timeline.

You're wasting your time trying to prove your theory is plausible. You have yet to prove anything was retconned. You also literally said "I'm ignoring some fluff because I don't like it", which destroys any credibility without word from GW that they retconned, or contradicting fluff, neither has been presented.

Accept you're going down that you're saying "in my head I like this idea more than what's out there and been published". From there, if you have some point as to why it's worth discussing, cool. Otherwise, there's 0 reason to try to convince other people you're somehow right.

 troa wrote:
Again, go look at the BRB's lore timeline.

You're wasting your time trying to prove your theory is plausible. You have yet to prove anything was retconned. You also literally said "I'm ignoring some fluff because I don't like it", which destroys any credibility without word from GW that they retconned, or contradicting fluff, neither has been presented.

Accept you're going down that you're saying "in my head I like this idea more than what's out there and been published". From there, if you have some point as to why it's worth discussing, cool. Otherwise, there's 0 reason to try to convince other people you're somehow right.

Wait what? Where did that hostility come from? Also why do you keep coming back to that old origin story? Whether it is still considered canon by GW or not isn't even the point of the thread, I just wanted to discuss a fun theory.

Regarding the timeline, do you accuse me of making stuff up? Go grab a 3rd ed necron codex and read page 9 and 28, both clearly state that a developing human race was already around when the old ones were still active, or at least some of them. Or are you claiming that this has been retconned?

Edit: there is a nice timeline on the lexicanum that references old codices if you want to check that out.
Also just to clear this up, me saying that I'm deliberately glancing over a piece of lore that I don't particularly like (perpetuals) does not mean I do not consider it canon, stop putting words in my mouth. Also I do not want to convince people that I am right and that my theory explains exactly what happend...I just said that in the lore that was presented by GW (again 3rd ed necron codex) it would be at least possible.

I'd say it was retconned considering that the C'Tan got beaten up by Necrons who went to sleep and then the Eldar started to begin their Empire.

While you're completely welcome to your own theories and ideas about the setting the fact is that there is fluff already covering the Emperor's start and with the current fluff of the setting your idea doesn't actually make sense because it's not possible.

pm713 wrote:
I'd say it was retconned considering that the C'Tan got beaten up by Necrons who went to sleep and then the Eldar started to begin their Empire.

While you're completely welcome to your own theories and ideas about the setting the fact is that there is fluff already covering the Emperor's start and with the current fluff of the setting your idea doesn't actually make sense because it's not possible.

How does the necrons beating up the c'tan retcon the lore from the 3rd ed necron codex? It specifically states that the old ones created certain races to help them fight the necrontyr, like the krork and eldar. They also created the humans who were "funny tree-dwellers" at the time, but were not given a particular role by the old ones. The old ones creating these races (among them humanities or at least some form of humanities ancestors) had to happen before the c'tan had to retreat due to infighting and the necrons beginning their long sleep, so I still don't buy that there was absolutely no sign of a nascent humanity at the time.

Now another interesting thought could be that the old ones had nothing to do with the emperor himself (again, that was just my pet-theory), but maybe they fostered the deveopment of humanity in a way that the first shamans could eventually emerge, which would of course in time lead into the creation of the emperor according to 2nd ed lore.

Tiberias wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'd say it was retconned considering that the C'Tan got beaten up by Necrons who went to sleep and then the Eldar started to begin their Empire.

While you're completely welcome to your own theories and ideas about the setting the fact is that there is fluff already covering the Emperor's start and with the current fluff of the setting your idea doesn't actually make sense because it's not possible.

How does the necrons beating up the c'tan retcon the lore from the 3rd ed necron codex? It specifically states that the old ones created certain races to help them fight the necrontyr, like the krork and eldar. They also created the humans who were "funny tree-dwellers" at the time, but were not given a particular role by the old ones. The old ones creating these races (among them humanities or at least some form of humanities ancestors) had to happen before the c'tan had to retreat due to infighting and the necrons beginning their long sleep, so I still don't buy that there was absolutely no sign of a nascent humanity at the time.

Now another interesting thought could be that the old ones had nothing to do with the emperor himself (again, that was just my pet-theory), but maybe they fostered the deveopment of humanity in a way that the first shamans could eventually emerge, which would of course in time lead into the creation of the emperor according to 2nd ed lore.

They didn't at all.

I don't really know quite how you've missed the transition from the oldcrons to newcrons but the C'Tan were shattered by the Necrons who then went to sleep because they couldn't face the rising Eldar. The Eldar Empire that was rising at this point existed before our ancestors ancestors ancestors were alive. There's no way that the Old Ones influenced humanity at all because they were wiped out long before any sign of humanity existed.

The Old Ones aren't completely extinct. Although their civilisation is destroyed as a galactic power, isolated survivors are confirmed to exist. One of the Necron codices even mentions the Eldar occasionally using surviving Old Ones as bait to lure Necrons into battle.

The Cabal member Gahet in the Horus Heresy novels is described as being of "The Old Kind" and predates even the Eldar. Not conclusive but he certainly sounds like an Old One to me.

Hypothetically, it would not contradict any of the fluff for the the Emperor to have been the pet project of a lone, surviving Old One, trying to put the Chaos Genie back in the bottle.

Remember that the Old Ones were naturally immortal so it would not be impossible for a few to still be around from the time of the War in Heaven.

You know I think it they stopped dumb lore changes it would stop being GW...

That's still the lore, it has not changed

Tiberias wrote:
How does the necrons beating up the c'tan retcon the lore from the 3rd ed necron codex? It specifically states that the old ones created certain races to help them fight the necrontyr, like the krork and eldar. They also created the humans who were "funny tree-dwellers" at the time, but were not given a particular role by the old ones. The old ones creating these races (among them humanities or at least some form of humanities ancestors) had to happen before the c'tan had to retreat due to infighting and the necrons beginning their long sleep, so I still don't buy that there was absolutely no sign of a nascent humanity at the time.

Except old ones couldn't really have made humans around the time necrons fought with old one's.

for the galaxy is ripe for conquest and the restoration of the Necron Empire since the disappearance of the Old Ones more than 60 million standard years ago.

Earliest primitive bipedalism came to earth around 6-7 millions year ago.

By the time necrons went to sleep humans were still tens of millions of years ahead even in the ape form nevermind even close to homo sapiens.

Well I stand corrected. I just read through it and the 5th ed necron codex seems to invalidate the 3rd ed necron codex lore, which I have referenced, within one sentence.

The 3rd ed codex does not specify on when the necrons went to sleep and how long the war in the heavens lasted so the accounts of humans beeing already there (or ancestors) on page 9 and 28 backed up my point. But in the 5th ed necron codex they already went to sleep 60million years ago like tneva said...shame.

There goes my pet theroy....(unless you say some old ones survived, but that's as much speculation as my first theory)