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BrianDavion wrote:

 Stux wrote:

beast_gts wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And, come to think of it? Where the bloody effing flip are the Chaos equivalents!

Isn't it one of those things that was post-Heresy, until it wasn't (like marine-portable Plasma Cannons & Multi-meltas)?

There need to be things marines get that Chaos don't. Though admittedly it's less of an issue now Primaris are a thing!

As someone who plays both, if GW ever does outright REPLACE old marines with Primaris I hope they'll at least try to move some of the real classic marine units over to chaos. things like land speeders. etc. Some of it like razorbacks could proably also go to sisters of battle. I mean if space Marines are no longer using them, why not hand land raiders off to SOBs?

What a fantastic idea and I’ve never seen that said before. Making Sisters vehicles almost a living homage to the old Space Marine line while adding its distinctive flavour is a great idea that does the players justice.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Given that the MM was originally a blast weapon before 3E, I think it might bear looking at changing it back to that, a D3 shots iteration or the like might be a good across the board fix.

I don’t know if the game need more dices. Make multi melta Assault 2, it is coherent with the two barrels model or, even better, Heavy 2 and give Relentless back to bikes (and Termies too)

The Deer Hunter wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Given that the MM was originally a blast weapon before 3E, I think it might bear looking at changing it back to that, a D3 shots iteration or the like might be a good across the board fix.

I don’t know if the game need more dices. Make multi melta Assault 2, it is coherent with the two barrels model or, even better, Heavy 2 and give Relentless back to bikes (and Termies too)

Termies don't have relentless?

 carldooley wrote:

The Deer Hunter wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Given that the MM was originally a blast weapon before 3E, I think it might bear looking at changing it back to that, a D3 shots iteration or the like might be a good across the board fix.

I don’t know if the game need more dices. Make multi melta Assault 2, it is coherent with the two barrels model or, even better, Heavy 2 and give Relentless back to bikes (and Termies too)

Termies don't have relentless?

Nope, its sad really

There is no relentless.

I like the idea of Heavy Flamers on bikes. I've heard good things about Orks loading up a trukk full of burnas and a bike with a heavy flamer would be functionally similar.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Given that the MM was originally a blast weapon before 3E, I think it might bear looking at changing it back to that, a D3 shots iteration or the like might be a good across the board fix.

as a primary ork player who happens to collect every biker army I can get my grubby hands on (something like 50-70 space marine bikes and another 10ish attack bikes)... let me throw out here that d3 shots looks good on paper but can suck. I am not against giving a multimelta an addition shot to 2 though and think that might be a great fix.

at 2 shots that MM even if it remained heave would average 1 hit per turn vs the now 50%. and you would not need the risk of say takgni 3 and netting 3 shots. it happens all the time to orks with our random weapons. like ... oh look my SAG got 3 shots, my lootas each get 1 shot, and keep going down the line to make your shooting either a) terrible or b) amazing. its just to swingy though.

Attack bikes are bad because of a few reasons reasons

1. Vehicle facings don't exist. Why bring a mobile heavy weapon when you can use a lascanon from twice the distance for half the cost?

2. Melta is a joke in 8th. It no longer has a chance to get lucky and pop a tank in one go or instant death an infanty

3. Hit penalties on what is supposed to be a mobile weapon platform

Martel732 wrote:
There is no relentless.

Unless you're playing 2-3 armies with fanboy writers that kept theirs even thought it makes no sense compared to 90% of things that lost this rule...

 Irbis wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There is no relentless.

Unless you're playing 2-3 armies with fanboy writers that kept theirs even thought it makes no sense compared to 90% of things that lost this rule...

Remember when many vehicles could only fire one weapon on the move?

It makes me sad that one of my main go to units for multiple editions is in such a bad place.

The main issue is that melta weapons are in the toilet this edition, positioning to hurt a vehicle no longer matters (or in general nothing matters LOS wise as long as your models foot can see a bit of an antenna. That on top of shooting penalty for moving is a nail in the coffin.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There is no relentless.

Unless you're playing 2-3 armies with fanboy writers that kept theirs even thought it makes no sense compared to 90% of things that lost this rule...

Remember when many vehicles could only fire one weapon on the move?

except some space marines vehicles because power of the machine spirit >_<

I took the sidecar off my Attack Bike and converted it.

They ain’t gonna get any updates. They’ll be quietly binned as soon as Primaris Grav Bikes come around.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I took the sidecar off my Attack Bike and converted it.

They ain’t gonna get any updates. They’ll be quietly binned as soon as Primaris Grav Bikes come around.

i doubt they get rid of them completely i more expect them to just be pointed so terribly they only see use on fluff bunny tables.

That said they make for a good convertion of space marine captain on a bike or ork warboss on a bike if you want to branch to new armies

if space marine bikes and attack bikes get to bad I for one will be orkifying all of mine up to joint my speedwaaagh

HoundsofDemos wrote:
It makes me sad that one of my main go to units for multiple editions is in such a bad place.

just how many editions have they been your go to unit? You do understand that isn't how it is supposed to work?

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I took the sidecar off my Attack Bike and converted it.

They ain’t gonna get any updates. They’ll be quietly binned as soon as Primaris Grav Bikes come around.

i doubt they get rid of them completely i more expect them to just be pointed so terribly they only see use on fluff bunny tables.

That said they make for a good convertion of space marine captain on a bike or ork warboss on a bike if you want to branch to new armies

if space marine bikes and attack bikes get to bad I for one will be orkifying all of mine up to joint my speedwaaagh

They aren't squatting marines, but at this point, it's pretty clear that anything non-primaris not getting a lot of updates anymore (including balance changes to make them viable again), while GW keeps releasing primaris models that have the same role as existing models. At some point the entire range will consist of a decent primaris options and a worse non-primaris options, effectively soft-squatting old-marines. You can still play your old models, but the competitive choice will be not to play them.

 Jidmah wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I took the sidecar off my Attack Bike and converted it.

They ain’t gonna get any updates. They’ll be quietly binned as soon as Primaris Grav Bikes come around.

i doubt they get rid of them completely i more expect them to just be pointed so terribly they only see use on fluff bunny tables.

That said they make for a good convertion of space marine captain on a bike or ork warboss on a bike if you want to branch to new armies

if space marine bikes and attack bikes get to bad I for one will be orkifying all of mine up to joint my speedwaaagh

They aren't squatting marines, but at this point, it's pretty clear that anything non-primaris not getting a lot of updates anymore (including balance changes to make them viable again), while GW keeps releasing primaris models that have the same role as existing models. At some point the entire range will consist of a decent primaris options and a worse non-primaris options, effectively soft-squatting old-marines. You can still play your old models, but the competitive choice will be not to play them.

yea, though i think some of the newer kits will stay viable, think centurians, tarteros, catafracti, contemptor dreds, and maybe the 2 small fighter planes. but apart from those the rest will be either 30k or narrative events, I would honestly like Geedubs to just make a classic marine codex and let you slot them in with the primaris as we get to that point, mayeb sellign an extra book will give them the insentive to balance the units but idk.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I would honestly like Geedubs to just make a classic marine codex

I'd be 100% cool with that. I'd even prefer it, as it would clean up the book.

keep in mind guys a lot of the "core" old space marine kits are pretty new, Tactical squads are only what, 5 years old? I can't thnk of many incentives for GW to outright discontinue those kits.

 carldooley wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
It makes me sad that one of my main go to units for multiple editions is in such a bad place.

just how many editions have they been your go to unit? You do understand that isn't how it is supposed to work?

5th through 7th they were a solid choice especially the MM version. I've never liked assault marines or vanguard so my usual go to was speeders and attack bikes. In 5th the name of the game was melta since other wise a 35 point rhino might eat half a turns worth of shooting and be no worse for ware. Even in 7th they were still useful since they were fast and good at flanking vehicles.

In 8th they like much of the classic marine line they are in a sorry state.

Lets be fair here, primaris isnt taking over the game.

That's true largely due to GW introducing two wound marines and then handing out 2D damage weapons with fairly high AP like candy making it a wash. t4 and a 3+ save is not what it once was.

Martel732 wrote:
Lets be fair here, primaris isnt taking over the game.

No one is claiming that though. I'm just saying it's more likely that we will see primaris bikers than getting current bikes and attack bikes fixed in a meaningful way.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
That's true largely due to GW introducing two wound marines and then handing out 2D damage weapons with fairly high AP like candy making it a wash. t4 and a 3+ save is not what it once was.

And they have even fewer shots per point. And no long range support until recently.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Lets be fair here, primaris isnt taking over the game.

No one is claiming that though. I'm just saying it's more likely that we will see primaris bikers than getting current bikes and attack bikes fixed in a meaningful way.

None of the old marines are getting fixed. Although at this rate, I don't think any of the primaris are getting fixed, either. It's turning into 2nd ed that never ends.

BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind guys a lot of the "core" old space marine kits are pretty new, Tactical squads are only what, 5 years old? I can't thnk of many incentives for GW to outright discontinue those kits.

I keep having to remind myself of that fact whenever I bump up the percentage of Primaris units too far and my list starts falling on it's face again.

I do think Attack Bikes having Heavy Flamers as an option would make a lot of sense, I've said elsewhere that they're one of the few things in the Marine arsenal that actually wants that gun. (GW has been weird about where they've put Flamer and Heavy Flamer options in the Marine codex in general. Very few things that want one can actually take one, and vice-versa.)

After the new CA and the point changes Attack Bikes are amazing!

For 37 points they bring 4 wounds each at T5 and they bring a heavy bolted and a combibolter.

And they are quite fast as their movement is 14", this means that if they want they can be outside of most of the opponent's weapons range.

Plus they can be revived by an apothecary.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There is no relentless.

Unless you're playing 2-3 armies with fanboy writers that kept theirs even thought it makes no sense compared to 90% of things that lost this rule...

Remember when many vehicles could only fire one weapon on the move?

except some space marines vehicles because power of the machine spirit >_<

Land Raiders. Which scarcely ever saw play due to how overpriced they were. During 4th ed, PotMS also existed as an upgrade one could take on another SM vehicle, but it was expensive, and only let one fire an additional weapon at BS 2. People used to take it on Vindicators, because the BS didn't matter with the Demolisher Cannon. It one move the Vindy 12" and fire its main gun.

The Newman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind guys a lot of the "core" old space marine kits are pretty new, Tactical squads are only what, 5 years old? I can't thnk of many incentives for GW to outright discontinue those kits.

I do think Attack Bikes having Heavy Flamers as an option would make a lot of sense, I've said elsewhere that they're one of the few things in the Marine arsenal that actually wants that gun. (GW has been weird about where they've put Flamer and Heavy Flamer options in the Marine codex in general. Very few things that want one can actually take one, and vice-versa.)

I honestly don't see how the Heavy Flamer would help this platform at all. It's a one shot deal, and the damage is far too swingy. For the hvy flamer, you will probably want to assault afterwards, or at least have the fly keyword.

It's best weapon is the Multi-melta and that weapon simply needs a drastic upgrade in 8th. I don't mind the regular meltagun as the damage is proportional to it's size and cost, but it's larger cousin should have more going for it than just range.

That makes me think giving flamers the ability to fire when falling back would be a fun idea. It'd sure help the Land Raider Redeemer.

 bullyboy wrote:

The Newman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind guys a lot of the "core" old space marine kits are pretty new, Tactical squads are only what, 5 years old? I can't thnk of many incentives for GW to outright discontinue those kits.

I do think Attack Bikes having Heavy Flamers as an option would make a lot of sense, I've said elsewhere that they're one of the few things in the Marine arsenal that actually wants that gun. (GW has been weird about where they've put Flamer and Heavy Flamer options in the Marine codex in general. Very few things that want one can actually take one, and vice-versa.)

I honestly don't see how the Heavy Flamer would help this platform at all. It's a one shot deal, and the damage is far too swingy. For the hvy flamer, you will probably want to assault afterwards, or at least have the fly keyword.

They're a T5, W4, 14" platform for 51 points with a heavy flamer. Three of them in a squad is just hard enough to draw real AT fire but not hard enough to really justify it, and just dangerous enough to not be ignorable. 3d6 shots is less swingy that 1d6, and they have to be shot off the table since charging into that overwatch is a very bad idea for a lot of units that they'd want to threaten.

You're right that it's not a great choice for the platform, but it's not a great choice on any platform. It's especially not a great choice on anything in the vanilla Marine arsenal that can actually take it. Sternguard want to stay back to leverags SIBs longer, Land Speeders are too expensive and fragile to get in that close, Land Raiders are way too expensive for the volume of fire they get with them, Redemptors have to give up an Onslaught, regular Dreads ... ok, not awful there since they need to be armed for CC to take one and they're not fast enough to reliably be the one charging. Melee Termies could maybe justify it if they were on a transport instead of DSing.on the same logic.

The units that could actually leverage a Heavy Flamer well are Inceptors, Assault Marines, and Company Veterans, none of whom have the option. Maybe scouts. Maybe Repulsors since they mount so many guns to begin with.