Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Going to buy an imperial bastion for my deathwatch army but really want to know everything before I bring this to my next game.

1. I assume when I disembark, I can appear at the roof of the bastion, which is considered outside? Say I put my watch commander and 5 intercessors up there, basically it would be full and IMPOSSIBLE even for a flying unit to charge me.

2. Do commander auras count vertically? I assume everyone in the bastion would benefit from my aura, but do the squads at the bottom also benefit? If not, I wouldn’t put my commander on top and just throw a vindicate up there.

3. Does this count as a terrain feature for cover? Assuming not.

4. If the Bastion is charged, will the units inside overwatch or does that only apply if they also charge the units inside? Can enemies even declare a charge against embarked units?

GameDadZ wrote:
Going to buy an imperial bastion for my deathwatch army but really want to know everything before I bring this to my next game.

1. I assume when I disembark, I can appear at the roof of the bastion, which is considered outside? Say I put my watch commander and 5 intercessors up there, basically it would be full and IMPOSSIBLE even for a flying unit to charge me.

2. Do commander auras count vertically? I assume everyone in the bastion would benefit from my aura, but do the squads at the bottom also benefit? If not, I wouldn’t put my commander on top and just throw a vindicate up there.

3. Does this count as a terrain feature for cover? Assuming not.

4. If the Bastion is charged, will the units inside overwatch or does that only apply if they also charge the units inside? Can enemies even declare a charge against embarked units?

1. No, RaW you have no permission to put units on top of the bastion as it is a friendly model, not a terrain feature. All it does is act as an immobile transport 10 models can shoot out of.

2. Distances in 8th edition are measures in all directions. Auras create a bubble in all directions.

3. No, it's not a terrain feature.

4. No, the units inside cannot fire overwatch when the bastion itself is charged.

You should revisit the datasheets for fortifications. Having said:

1. Fortification (which a Imp. Bastion is) is a model, and RAW, no model can be placed on top of another model. When putting models "into" a fortification, it typically follows embark rule. See datasheet for more info. And yes, it's impossible to charge units embarked on a fortification unless you destroy it first.

2. Embarked units cannot benefit from auras or abilities unless otherwise stated.

3. It is a fortification (building). See dataslate.

4. Each fortification has rules governing this. See datasheet.

Ah, so auras cannot even affect units inside the fortification then? That makes the bastion way less useful now... thanks for the quick replies.

GameDadZ wrote:
Ah, so auras cannot even affect units inside the fortification then? That makes the bastion way less useful now... thanks for the quick replies.

Correct, units embarked in the Bastion are not on the battlefield, and so cannot be affected by Auras. Generally nothing would affect embarked models and they can do nothing, but the special rules of the Bastion do allow them to shoot.

Read the transports rule : "Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked." No auras, no stratagems, no minus to hit, no plus to hit. They cant be shot at, they cant be charged. The bastion gives them permission to shoot, thats all they can do.

 p5freak wrote:
no minus to hit, no plus to hit.

I really don't want to do this debate again, see the other threads. But this part is HIGHLY debatable. Most people believe +/- to hit still work as normal by virtue of the unit's permission to shoot.

p5freak's opinion on this is somewhat unique.

Cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way is very clear. I fail to see how this is highly debatable. Any +/- to hit would affect them in any way.

 p5freak wrote:
Cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way is very clear. I fail to see how this is highly debatable. Any +/- to hit would affect them in any way.

Unless, of course, the -/+ to hits are from an ability on the datasheet, not an aura or anything. Random pick for example, say a unit gets a +1 on to hit rolls vs units with FLY as part of an ability, or weapon rule, they would still get that effect when shooting out of a bunker.

 p5freak wrote:
Cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way is very clear. I fail to see how this is highly debatable. Any +/- to hit would affect them in any way.

I know you fail to see it. I'm sorry about that. But we're not doing this again.

Now I’m confused. Plaguebearers have a -1 to hit. The ability comes from the Plaguebearers. You are saying that bastion units would ignore this completely? I also didn’t know it went as far as not being able to use stratagems. Does this also mean they can’t use special ammunition?

GameDadZ wrote:
Now I’m confused. Plaguebearers have a -1 to hit. The ability comes from the Plaguebearers. You are saying that bastion units would ignore this completely? I also didn’t know it went as far as not being able to use stratagems. Does this also mean they can’t use special ammunition?

One person is taking that position. No one else thinks it works like that.

@OP: if it helps, you have to remember that rule wise a fortification is basically a transport that cannot move. You can't put marines on top of a rhino, so can't put models on top of a bastion, etc.

About modifiers and stuff, don't forget that most (all?) open topped vehicles transfer their modifiers/restrictions to the units inside. So units shooting out of an open topped transport will most of time suffer from the same restrictions/modifiers as if they were on the battlefield.

GameDadZ wrote:
Now I’m confused. Plaguebearers have a -1 to hit. The ability comes from the Plaguebearers. You are saying that bastion units would ignore this completely? I also didn’t know it went as far as not being able to use stratagems. Does this also mean they can’t use special ammunition?

If you apply RAW, then yes, no -1 to hit. Ask yourself, would -1 to hit affect embarked units in any way ? Yes, it would. Would a stratagem that allows a unit to shoot a second time affect embarked units in way ? Yes, it would. RAW says embarked units cannot be affected in any way. I agree that this introduces lots of problems. But thats RAW. Thats how GW wants the game to be played. Do i like it ? No, i dont. I also dont like re-rolls before modifiers, but thats how GW wants the game to be played. I also dont like to suffer 30MW per turn when playing against tsons. But thats how GW wants the game to be played.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

fresus wrote:

About modifiers and stuff, don't forget that most (all?) open topped vehicles transfer their modifiers/restrictions to the units inside. So units shooting out of an open topped transport will most of time suffer from the same restrictions/modifiers as if they were on the battlefield.

The open topped rule is very different from fire points rule. It has nothing to do with this topic.

 p5freak wrote:

GameDadZ wrote:
Now I’m confused. Plaguebearers have a -1 to hit. The ability comes from the Plaguebearers. You are saying that bastion units would ignore this completely? I also didn’t know it went as far as not being able to use stratagems. Does this also mean they can’t use special ammunition?

If you apply RAW

Your interpretation of RAW. Don't go appealing to RAW as if you have the high ground here. A rule that says "When this unit shoots" is a specific rule that overrides the general rule about embarked units not being affected, provided the unit is given permission to shoot. That is also applying RAW.

But that way of applying raw is almost impossible to interpret because then we are claiming shooting changes the status of the unit. Then it SHOULD be affected by command auras and the such if it does not count as being embarked at the instance of shooting.

GameDadZ wrote:
But that way of applying raw is almost impossible to interpret because then we are claiming shooting changes the status of the unit. Then it SHOULD be affected by command auras and the such if it does not count as being embarked at the instance of shooting.

Auras still don't work, because how can a unit that is not on the battlefield be within 6" (or whatever) of a unit that is on the battlefield?

You get to measure range and line of sight from the Bastion, but that doesn't mean the unit itself is within aura range of anything.

Also, it does still count as embarked, it just has permission to shoot which also causes abilities that specifically apply when shooting to come into effect.

 Stux wrote:

Also, it does still count as embarked, it just has permission to shoot which also causes abilities that specifically apply when shooting to come into effect.

Citation please for the red marked part.

Have they not used bastions or firing point buildings at official tournaments? Maybe the best idea is to just copy whatever they did.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I’m also inclined to believe p5freak at the moment just because the unit should count as embarked or not.

If it is embarked, then the only exceptions to embarkation should be what is explicitly stated. It explicitly states they can fire but does not address the fact that they can’t be affected by anything else. Saying firing implies overriding select rules is really gray and definitely RAI.

 p5freak wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Also, it does still count as embarked, it just has permission to shoot which also causes abilities that specifically apply when shooting to come into effect.

Citation please for the red marked part.

"When this unit makes a shooting attack..."

There you go! Specific rule like that on individual datasheets overrides general rule for embarked units that they aren't affected by ability. It really is very simple.

So for arguments sake and probably can be house ruled that shooting will override embarking when an ability relates to shooting. What about negative hit modifiers like Culexus and Plaguebearers?

It says your opponent must subtract 1 from all hit rolls against this unit. Would embarking ignore this change to my unit?

GameDadZ wrote:
So for arguments sake and probably can be house ruled that shooting will override embarking when an ability relates to shooting. What about negative hit modifiers like Culexus and Plaguebearers?

It says your opponent must subtract 1 from all hit rolls against this unit. Would embarking ignore this change to my unit?

Most people/GW bat reps/tournaments say no.

p5freak says yes.

I was hoping the official tournaments have already clarified this. Seems like they’ve already determined how it works or is intended to work.

GameDadZ wrote:
So for arguments sake and probably can be house ruled that shooting will override embarking when an ability relates to shooting. What about negative hit modifiers like Culexus and Plaguebearers?

It says your opponent must subtract 1 from all hit rolls against this unit. Would embarking ignore this change to my unit?

Yes, there's a change to the unit, you've embarked it into something following the transport rules, which means it can't be targeted by other units. The -1 for other units to hit becomes irrelevant because you can't target the unit in the first place.

Go to any tournament, and tel the alaitoc flyer spam eldar player you ignore his -2,-3 whatever to hit flyer and see how that pans out for you and then come let me know.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Go to any tournament, and tel the alaitoc flyer spam eldar player you ignore his -2,-3 whatever to hit flyer and see how that pans out for you and then come let me know.

House Rules are House Rules.

There is no single interpretation of the rule by RAW, so you simply follow what is the obvious RAI and what is less advantageous for you. In practical terms, no one would ever let you use "One use only" weapons more than one time just because you are inside a toy tower, and no one would ever propose it since it sounds totally dumb, not even in a cuttroath tournament, so this discussion is 100% onanism.

We all know how this interaction plays out, we don't need a discussion for it.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Go to any tournament, and tel the alaitoc flyer spam eldar player you ignore his -2,-3 whatever to hit flyer and see how that pans out for you and then come let me know.

House Rules are House Rules.

Right. So in your opinion how should it be played:

1. Specific trumps general, so special rules apply once permission to shoot has been given.
2. Rules for embarked units stop all abilities except granting permission to shoot.
3. There is no pure RAW. Roll off I guess?
4. Something else?

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Go to any tournament, and tel the alaitoc flyer spam eldar player you ignore his -2,-3 whatever to hit flyer and see how that pans out for you and then come let me know.

Is there any actual tournament battle report that someone can cite for reference ?.

So we have another thread where one or two users defend an indefensible Reddit-level position attempting to have the last word as everyone else tires. How useful for this forum and people reading it to find out how the rules work... how joyous.

Of course embarking doesn’t magically make you immune to to hit modifiers when shooting. What a ridiculous assertion. Do you two ever actually play this game???