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Taking them both at say 100 years old and fully trained is there any chance for an OldMarine VS a Primaris?
Are Prims in every way flat out better?

Well, one is a space marine with one hundred years experience. The other is a stronger, faster, bigger space marine with a newer armor and a better gun with one hundred years experience. You do the math.

I imagine so, I can't imagine Intercessor Brother Daveael could stand up to a lot of the Chapter Masters or Captains out there, so the old marines still have a lot of potential to beat them.

phillv85 wrote:
I imagine so, I can't imagine Intercessor Brother Daveael could stand up to a lot of the Chapter Masters or Captains out there, so the old marines still have a lot of potential to beat them.

That’s a completely skewed match-up that ignores anything OP was saying.

Well, the ordinary marine can hide behind lower walls, and he can ride a motorbike. Other than that, he's sadly outclassed.

Wargear certainly matters too. 100yrs experience and an Intercessor still can't use a Plasma gun? Or Missile Launcher? Or Heavy Bolter? etc
Sure they have Hellblasters, but those can be targeted as the first threat to removed. It's harder to remove the "teeth" of an army if those teeth are spread out evenly in every squad rather than in 1 place.

If you were to match 100 Old Marines with 100 Primaris, assuming both sides have roughly equal "big guns" and I'd say they would be evenly matched.
That would probably look something like:
8 units of 10 Tactical Marines with 1 Special (plasma), 1 Combi-weapon Sgt (also plasma) and 1 Heavy (Plasma cannon?)
4 units of 5 Devs with 4 Heavies each (MLs to keep it simple?)
VS
7 units of 10 Intercesstors & 3 units of 10 Hellblasters

I would suspect the Primaris might have the edge due to range and every failed save caused killing an Old Marine, but if the Old Marines can target and remove the Hellblaster early, I can see that balance shifting pretty quick in favor of the Old Marines

Once Intercessor can start mixing in 1 Hellblaster per 4 Intercessors (1 in 5) then the OldMarines days are numbered

-

Let me point out that heavy incinerators used by hellblasters match or outrange anything oldmarines use bar a lascannon so trying to eliminate these before they eliminate you would be kind of hard. Ditto for standard bolters and plasma primaris use, both outrange bolters and plasma of oldmarines by a fair margin so you have very little scope to do anything before dying unless you somehow start right next to each other. And even then, primaris are twice as durable and deadly in melee if game stats are to be believed, so...

EDIT: as for the second point, DW intercessors can indeed take 1 to 5 hellblasters to add to 5 'base' troopers, but almost no one does so, there is literally no point. You take one or the other, diluting your fire and point efficiency isn't really that good tactic these days...

 Apple Peel wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
I imagine so, I can't imagine Intercessor Brother Daveael could stand up to a lot of the Chapter Masters or Captains out there, so the old marines still have a lot of potential to beat them.

That’s a completely skewed match-up that ignores anything OP was saying.

I couldn't disagree more. My point was that an oldmarine reaching their full potential would outclass an average Primaris. So the answer to the question, in my opinion, is there is a chance for the oldmarine. Genetically, the Primaris has the advantage, but that doesn't mean it's a given in a 1v1.

phillv85 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
I imagine so, I can't imagine Intercessor Brother Daveael could stand up to a lot of the Chapter Masters or Captains out there, so the old marines still have a lot of potential to beat them.

That’s a completely skewed match-up that ignores anything OP was saying.

I couldn't disagree more. My point was that an oldmarine reaching their full potential would outclass an average Primaris. So the answer to the question, in my opinion, is there is a chance for the oldmarine. Genetically, the Primaris has the advantage, but that doesn't mean it's a given in a 1v1.

OP asked for 1v1 equal experience fight. A chapter master could beat a regular space marine as he has 300 years more experience and some of the best wargear the chapter can provide. He could beat any regular old primaris that way, too. By your logic, we could just throw a Primaris Chapter master of the Ultimate founding against some brand new tactical marine. It adds nothing useful to the discussion.

 Irbis wrote:
Let me point out that heavy incinerators used by hellblasters match or outrange anything oldmarines use bar a lascannon so trying to eliminate these before they eliminate you would be kind of hard. Ditto for standard bolters and plasma primaris use, both outrange bolters and plasma of oldmarines by a fair margin so you have very little scope to do anything before dying unless you somehow start right next to each other. And even then, primaris are twice as durable and deadly in melee if game stats are to be believed, so...

EDIT: as for the second point, DW intercessors can indeed take 1 to 5 hellblasters to add to 5 'base' troopers, but almost no one does so, there is literally no point. You take one or the other, diluting your fire and point efficiency isn't really that good tactic these days...

While all true, in practice, anything with 36" range can basically reach what it needs to on a 6x4 board (when deployed right). MLs can do this and be in cover. So unless the Hellblasters are out of LoS (which likely means them not shooting), ML or LC Devs can certainly reach out and pew-pew them.

I'm not saying Primaris would not have the clear advantage, as they certainly would, but if comparing a mixed of Primaris Infantry (Intercessor and Hellblaster) to an even amount (in points) of Old Marine Infantry (Tacticals with special weapons and Devs), the Old Marines have a better chance at removing the "heavy hitters" from the Primaris than vice-versa.
The Primaris coud certainly remove the Devs, but the Tacticals would still have 2 Specials in each unit.

So if we take the Hellblasters and Devs out of the equation, and just compare 5-man Tac squads and 5-man Intercessors, the Old Marines still look "even" because their Plasma is better at removing whole Intercessors than Bolt Rifles are at removing 1W Marines
It would really depend on who goes first

-

A Primaris marine at full potential could stomp face.

 Galef wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
Let me point out that heavy incinerators used by hellblasters match or outrange anything oldmarines use bar a lascannon so trying to eliminate these before they eliminate you would be kind of hard. Ditto for standard bolters and plasma primaris use, both outrange bolters and plasma of oldmarines by a fair margin so you have very little scope to do anything before dying unless you somehow start right next to each other. And even then, primaris are twice as durable and deadly in melee if game stats are to be believed, so...

EDIT: as for the second point, DW intercessors can indeed take 1 to 5 hellblasters to add to 5 'base' troopers, but almost no one does so, there is literally no point. You take one or the other, diluting your fire and point efficiency isn't really that good tactic these days...

While all true, in practice, anything with 36" range can basically reach what it needs to on a 6x4 board (when deployed right). MLs can do this and be in cover. So unless the Hellblasters are out of LoS (which likely means them not shooting), ML or LC Devs can certainly reach out and pew-pew them.

I'm not saying Primaris would not have the clear advantage, as they certainly would, but if comparing a mixed of Primaris Infantry (Intercessor and Hellblaster) to an even amount (in points) of Old Marine Infantry (Tacticals with special weapons and Devs), the Old Marines have a better chance at removing the "heavy hitters" from the Primaris than vice-versa.
The Primaris coud certainly remove the Devs, but the Tacticals would still have 2 Specials in each unit.

So if we take the Hellblasters and Devs out of the equation, and just compare 5-man Tac squads and 5-man Intercessors, the Old Marines still look "even" because their Plasma is better at removing whole Intercessors than Bolt Rifles are at removing 1W Marines
It would really depend on who goes first

-

yeah except we're not discussing pure table top, but the lore. dismissing a range advantage because "anything beyond this range seldom/never applies on a 6x4 board" is a poor arguement because we all know that in the actual setting battles aren't fought on a small confined area with bounderies etc.

Primaris marine would take the fight on a personal, squad and tactical level. They are better in every way with the only exception being they are bigger targets, but being bigger has it's own advantages when the distance is closed.

Speaking to the lore, Hellbasters are known to be the best marksmen in the regiment, outside perhaps eliminators.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Speaking to the lore, Hellbasters are known to be the best marksmen in the regiment, outside perhaps eliminators.

Many proably do double duty as both too

BrianDavion wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
Speaking to the lore, Hellbasters are known to be the best marksmen in the regiment, outside perhaps eliminators.

Many proably do double duty as both too

Wouldn’t be surprised. If I recall correctly, the Vanguard Primaris fluff said that all primaris took a turn through the Vanguard company.

 Apple Peel wrote:

phillv85 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
I imagine so, I can't imagine Intercessor Brother Daveael could stand up to a lot of the Chapter Masters or Captains out there, so the old marines still have a lot of potential to beat them.

That’s a completely skewed match-up that ignores anything OP was saying.

I couldn't disagree more. My point was that an oldmarine reaching their full potential would outclass an average Primaris. So the answer to the question, in my opinion, is there is a chance for the oldmarine. Genetically, the Primaris has the advantage, but that doesn't mean it's a given in a 1v1.

OP asked for 1v1 equal experience fight. A chapter master could beat a regular space marine as he has 300 years more experience and some of the best wargear the chapter can provide. He could beat any regular old primaris that way, too. By your logic, we could just throw a Primaris Chapter master of the Ultimate founding against some brand new tactical marine. It adds nothing useful to the discussion.

Equal EXPERIENCE
Experience does NOT = Ability

By my logic, you're not listening. The point I'm trying to make is that being Primaris does not guarantee you're better at everything ever than any old marine who has lived as long.

Not all marines are equal, we have the outliers who are far beyond what many of their brethren could become. It's quite clear that a 'chapter master in the making' will be an exceptional marine, probably one that beats the average intercessor at many things, despite the fact he's still only carrying a bolter in his tactical squad. These guys are still superhumans with incredible abilities, this isn't a guardsmen vs. marine fight.

Or you know, maybe I'm just wrong, and now that Primaris have been around for over 100 years, Chaos Space Marines will just lose every fight to them, because Primaris can't possibly lose to an old marine....

BrianDavion wrote:
yeah except we're not discussing pure table top, but the lore.

Fair enough. But I'd say that probably reinforces my point. While on the table-top Primaris are "twice the Marine" of a Marine, in lore they just have 3 extra organs. And only the reinforce leg coils "beef" them up, combined with the Mark X armour.
So I'd say in a 1v1 battle with equally experience combatants, it wouldn't be as obvious who the winner would be, until you account for wargear.
Bolter vs Bolt Rifle? Primaris should win
But since it's likely the Old Marine could be equipped with a Plasma gun? I'd edge that to the OldMarine

If Marines were properly represented on the table top (2W/2A for all Marines, not just Primaris) we might see this play out there too.

-

 Galef wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
yeah except we're not discussing pure table top, but the lore.

Fair enough. But I'd say that probably reinforces my point. While on the table-top Primaris are "twice the Marine" of a Marine, in lore they just have 3 extra organs. And only the reinforce leg coils "beef" them up, combined with the Mark X armour.
So I'd say in a 1v1 battle with equally experience combatants, it wouldn't be as obvious who the winner would be, until you account for wargear.
Bolter vs Bolt Rifle? Primaris should win
But since it's likely the Old Marine could be equipped with a Plasma gun? I'd edge that to the OldMarine

If Marines were properly represented on the table top (2W/2A for all Marines, not just Primaris) we might see this play out there too.

-

I don't consider a 10% proability tops as being very likely. I think it's worth noting that even though intercessors don't have special weapons Plasma is much MUCH more common among primaris Marines then normal marines. it seems to be one of the hallmarks of Primaris

phillv85 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

phillv85 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
I imagine so, I can't imagine Intercessor Brother Daveael could stand up to a lot of the Chapter Masters or Captains out there, so the old marines still have a lot of potential to beat them.

That’s a completely skewed match-up that ignores anything OP was saying.

I couldn't disagree more. My point was that an oldmarine reaching their full potential would outclass an average Primaris. So the answer to the question, in my opinion, is there is a chance for the oldmarine. Genetically, the Primaris has the advantage, but that doesn't mean it's a given in a 1v1.

OP asked for 1v1 equal experience fight. A chapter master could beat a regular space marine as he has 300 years more experience and some of the best wargear the chapter can provide. He could beat any regular old primaris that way, too. By your logic, we could just throw a Primaris Chapter master of the Ultimate founding against some brand new tactical marine. It adds nothing useful to the discussion.

Equal EXPERIENCE
Experience does NOT = Ability

By my logic, you're not listening. The point I'm trying to make is that being Primaris does not guarantee you're better at everything ever than any old marine who has lived as long.

Not all marines are equal, we have the outliers who are far beyond what many of their brethren could become. It's quite clear that a 'chapter master in the making' will be an exceptional marine, probably one that beats the average intercessor at many things, despite the fact he's still only carrying a bolter in his tactical squad. These guys are still superhumans with incredible abilities, this isn't a guardsmen vs. marine fight.

Or you know, maybe I'm just wrong, and now that Primaris have been around for over 100 years, Chaos Space Marines will just lose every fight to them, because Primaris can't possibly lose to an old marine....

Are you trying to be ridiculous? You don’t fight battles of comparison based on OUTLIERS. Outliers skew data! For this comparison to
Be anything useful, you use the most average of both force and place them against each other. You don’t throw captain Plot Armor versus Private Plot Pittance!

 Apple Peel wrote:

phillv85 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

phillv85 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
I imagine so, I can't imagine Intercessor Brother Daveael could stand up to a lot of the Chapter Masters or Captains out there, so the old marines still have a lot of potential to beat them.

That’s a completely skewed match-up that ignores anything OP was saying.

I couldn't disagree more. My point was that an oldmarine reaching their full potential would outclass an average Primaris. So the answer to the question, in my opinion, is there is a chance for the oldmarine. Genetically, the Primaris has the advantage, but that doesn't mean it's a given in a 1v1.

OP asked for 1v1 equal experience fight. A chapter master could beat a regular space marine as he has 300 years more experience and some of the best wargear the chapter can provide. He could beat any regular old primaris that way, too. By your logic, we could just throw a Primaris Chapter master of the Ultimate founding against some brand new tactical marine. It adds nothing useful to the discussion.

Equal EXPERIENCE
Experience does NOT = Ability

By my logic, you're not listening. The point I'm trying to make is that being Primaris does not guarantee you're better at everything ever than any old marine who has lived as long.

Not all marines are equal, we have the outliers who are far beyond what many of their brethren could become. It's quite clear that a 'chapter master in the making' will be an exceptional marine, probably one that beats the average intercessor at many things, despite the fact he's still only carrying a bolter in his tactical squad. These guys are still superhumans with incredible abilities, this isn't a guardsmen vs. marine fight.

Or you know, maybe I'm just wrong, and now that Primaris have been around for over 100 years, Chaos Space Marines will just lose every fight to them, because Primaris can't possibly lose to an old marine....

Are you trying to be ridiculous? You don’t fight battles of comparison based on OUTLIERS. Outliers skew data! For this comparison to
Be anything useful, you use the most average of both force and place them against each other. You don’t throw captain Plot Armor versus Private Plot Pittance!

The question was does an oldmarine have any chance against a primaris? Your first answer was a typical dakka smarter than thou response. My first response was that oldmarine vs primaris isn’t a guaranteed win for Primaris, it is if you’re taking joe average from both sides, but surely nobody needed to ask that question because it’s so bloody obvious. This is the background forum, not game tactics, so yes, plot armour does factor in.

phillv85 wrote:
The question was does an oldmarine have any chance against a primaris? Your first answer was a typical dakka smarter than thou response. My first response was that oldmarine vs primaris isn’t a guaranteed win for Primaris, it is if you’re taking joe average from both sides, but surely nobody needed to ask that question because it’s so bloody obvious. This is the background forum, not game tactics, so yes, plot armour does factor in.

If the oldmarine has plot armour, so can the Primaris.

Any modifer you give to the oldmarine (experience etc etc), as per the terms of the test, the Primaris must have equal experience too.

Sure, you can point at a case of "but this oldmarine is special!" - but what's to stop someone saying "well, the Primaris Marine is special too!" - it just becomes an escalation.

Oldmarines DO stand a chance, but at face value, Primaris are simply just BETTER. Most of the oldmarines are probably dead (Cassius was noted as old at 400 as of M41, and it's been another 100 years since then) - most likely, your bog standard battle company marines are probably dead, replaced by Primaris, who've had at 100 years of experience and the wisdom of their brothers to draw upon, in addition to their natural superiority and better equipment.

Even IF we were to factor in experience, and assume that experience noticeably changed effectiveness, then there would only be about an extra 100 years experience - which I still don't think is enough to compare to a Primaris Marine with better kit, enhancements, and same wisdom the Chapter elders have passed to them.

 Apple Peel wrote:

Are you trying to be ridiculous? You don’t fight battles of comparison based on OUTLIERS. Outliers skew data! For this comparison to
Be anything useful, you use the most average of both force and place them against each other. You don’t throw captain Plot Armor versus Private Plot Pittance!

Are you sure? Most of Warhammer 40k strategy is tied up in rolling 6's half the time. So, far I have only rolled 6's about 1/6th the time, but eventually my strategy will kick in I am sure of it. Then I will stop losing all of my games.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
The question was does an oldmarine have any chance against a primaris? Your first answer was a typical dakka smarter than thou response. My first response was that oldmarine vs primaris isn’t a guaranteed win for Primaris, it is if you’re taking joe average from both sides, but surely nobody needed to ask that question because it’s so bloody obvious. This is the background forum, not game tactics, so yes, plot armour does factor in.

If the oldmarine has plot armour, so can the Primaris.

Any modifer you give to the oldmarine (experience etc etc), as per the terms of the test, the Primaris must have equal experience too.

Sure, you can point at a case of "but this oldmarine is special!" - but what's to stop someone saying "well, the Primaris Marine is special too!" - it just becomes an escalation.

Oldmarines DO stand a chance, but at face value, Primaris are simply just BETTER. Most of the oldmarines are probably dead (Cassius was noted as old at 400 as of M41, and it's been another 100 years since then) - most likely, your bog standard battle company marines are probably dead, replaced by Primaris, who've had at 100 years of experience and the wisdom of their brothers to draw upon, in addition to their natural superiority and better equipment.

Even IF we were to factor in experience, and assume that experience noticeably changed effectiveness, then there would only be about an extra 100 years experience - which I still don't think is enough to compare to a Primaris Marine with better kit, enhancements, and same wisdom the Chapter elders have passed to them.

I can’t remember what I was reading, but I believe old marines are still being produced in some quantities by many chapters. They aren’t dead till GW fill out the Primaris line for the most part, I’d think.

 Apple Peel wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
The question was does an oldmarine have any chance against a primaris? Your first answer was a typical dakka smarter than thou response. My first response was that oldmarine vs primaris isn’t a guaranteed win for Primaris, it is if you’re taking joe average from both sides, but surely nobody needed to ask that question because it’s so bloody obvious. This is the background forum, not game tactics, so yes, plot armour does factor in.

If the oldmarine has plot armour, so can the Primaris.

Any modifer you give to the oldmarine (experience etc etc), as per the terms of the test, the Primaris must have equal experience too.

Sure, you can point at a case of "but this oldmarine is special!" - but what's to stop someone saying "well, the Primaris Marine is special too!" - it just becomes an escalation.

Oldmarines DO stand a chance, but at face value, Primaris are simply just BETTER. Most of the oldmarines are probably dead (Cassius was noted as old at 400 as of M41, and it's been another 100 years since then) - most likely, your bog standard battle company marines are probably dead, replaced by Primaris, who've had at 100 years of experience and the wisdom of their brothers to draw upon, in addition to their natural superiority and better equipment.

Even IF we were to factor in experience, and assume that experience noticeably changed effectiveness, then there would only be about an extra 100 years experience - which I still don't think is enough to compare to a Primaris Marine with better kit, enhancements, and same wisdom the Chapter elders have passed to them.

I can’t remember what I was reading, but I believe old marines are still being produced in some quantities by many chapters. They aren’t dead till GW fill out the Primaris line for the most part, I’d think.

No, not all dead, but in lore, the only apparent benefit of the older marines over the Primaris is their experience - which isn't relevant when all of the experienced ones are probably dead by now. Any "oldmarines" not seconded to the Veteran Squads by now are probably newer recruits to their Chapters than the Primaris are.

To answer your question, I'll make the following analogy. What are the chances for an average size woman to beat an average size man in hand to hand combat considering that both have a similar level of training (which I would call very high) and a similar amount of experience in combat situation (which would also be high). Is it possible that such a woman could beat such a man? Yes, I believe it is, but it's extremely unlikely. For that to be the case, she either needs to be very lucky or be so much more talented the an equally trained man who is significantly larger and stronger then her.

The same goes for a Primaris Space Marines and a regular one. Both have an equipment with the same function and style, but the Primaris one is simply much better. Both are superhuman, but the Primaris Marine is larger, heavier, stronger and faster then the normal one. Both have a very similar if not identical style of combat and doctrine, so no special advantages that can be gained through different combat styles. Both think the same way and according to the same parameters. A Primaris Space Marine is simply physically massively superior. You would need a very lucky Space Marine or a very talented one to have a fair chance at winning, but it's still possible.

Why are we looking at 80 Tacs and 20 Devs? And 70 Intercessors and 30 Hellblasters?

Shouldn't it be 60 Tacticals, 20 Assault, and 20 Devs - only 8 Heavies? 2 Dreads, and 8-10/16-20 Rhinos/Razorbacks?

60 Intercessors, 20 Interceptors, and 20 Hellblasters? 2 Redemptor Dreads, and 8 Repulsors?

Edit to modify the Dedicated Transports vis-a-vis Jump Infantry.

Breton wrote:
Why are we looking at 80 Tacs and 20 Devs? And 70 Intercessors and 30 Hellblasters?

Shouldn't it be 60 Tacticals, 20 Assault, and 20 Devs - only 8 Heavies? 2 Dreads, and 8-10/16-20 Rhinos/Razorbacks?

60 Intercessors, 20 Interceptors, and 20 Hellblasters? 2 Redemptor Dreads, and 8 Repulsors?

Edit to modify the Dedicated Transports vis-a-vis Jump Infantry.

which if you do the math means the primaris formation could well have more plasma. although not by an aweful lot. it's intreasting how the primaris marines and old marines have a differant deployment set up but over all the exact number of special and heavy weapons they field isn't drasticly differant

Primaris aren't flatly superior in-lore behind raw physical stats because they suffer from logistical inferiority. Unlike normal marines, due to their sheer bulk (although this raises questions because normal marines can grow to heights comparable to a Primarch), they cannot use a plethora of weapons available to the veterans of a chapter by simple accommodation of stature or hand size. As far as we know a Primaris Marine cannot use storm bolters, meltaguns, combi bolters, MK 3 power armor, Centurion Armor, Grav Guns, and a plethora of melee weapons.

So if the fight is between two veterans? Money should absolutely be on the mini-marine due to superior equipment. Sure Primaris can bolt Gravis plates onto their Tacticus to enhance their durability, but a normal marine can slap on MK 3 power armor for enhanced strength and durability and grab a combi-grav or combi-melta that will erase the Primaris Marine with a single shot regardless of the armor he's got on.

Also on the grand strategic scale? Primaris get their arses whipped courtesy of inferior logistics and poor adaptability. On an individual level they are superior, but they've got a long ways to go for any hope of being able to fight equally as a whole.

No mark 3 armour, but they do get Gravis armour, which does the same job - better, in fact, as the enhanced protection is all round.

There's also no in-universe reason why Primaris can't use any standard Marine weapons; it's just that they've not been shown to do so yet to keep the new and old lines visually distinct (although we have seen the common melee weapons used by both)