Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Regardless if other find it fun or not, if it fits your play style and it’s what interests you play it.

"Who cares if your opponent is not having fun and will never want to play against you again, you found the most boring and mindless list possible and you have every right to use it."

Boring and mindless in your opinion, which doesn’t mean much in regards to others opinions. If you play with an actual group of friends, and they know you’re playing an army and style that fits what you like lore wise, as well as model and paint scheme wise, they won’t care. And if you play in a competitive environment, they are going to find ways to beat it. Your opinion is invalid, unfortunately

In this case I think it's your opinion thats invalid. Gun lines are by far the most commonly cited type of army that people don't like playing against, and has been for a long time, and even amongst friends if someone is bringing a gunline and the others aren't having fun then that player is going to find themselves struggling to get games.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Regardless if other find it fun or not, if it fits your play style and it’s what interests you play it.

"Who cares if your opponent is not having fun and will never want to play against you again, you found the most boring and mindless list possible and you have every right to use it."

Boring and mindless in your opinion, which doesn’t mean much in regards to others opinions.

I mean, you're choosing to use an army that declines to participate in *at least* two entire phases of the game. Three if you have no psykers.

That's not opinion that's objective fact.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Regardless if other find it fun or not, if it fits your play style and it’s what interests you play it. Others love melee, and if melee was broken they’d be having fun watching their melee dudes slaughter everyone. Sadly you can not please everyone, so murder their guys with a huge castled Gunlines and if they complain afterwards, point them in the direction of warmahordes and tell them to have a good day

Considering how much better the WarmaHordes rules and intra-faction balance are, it's the right thing to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Horst wrote:
Well OP didn't specify it had to be a static gunline castle. Custodes and Knights can certainly do gunlines, and they have the ability to go on the offensive if it's tactically a good idea. Flexible armies like that have always been my favorite.

Marines are at their (admittedly lackluster) best played like this. Castle up so the whole army gets all the rerolls, bring enough melee to not be completely useless when the enemy gets close enough that melee can't be avoided.

 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Regardless if other find it fun or not, if it fits your play style and it’s what interests you play it.

"Who cares if your opponent is not having fun and will never want to play against you again, you found the most boring and mindless list possible and you have every right to use it."

Boring and mindless in your opinion, which doesn’t mean much in regards to others opinions.

I mean, you're choosing to use an army that declines to participate in *at least* two entire phases of the game. Three if you have no psykers.

That's not opinion that's objective fact.

Cute, that is fact. I rather hate the psychic phase and melee is gak.. so skip two phases I don’t care for? Yes please and thank you

You hate psykers and melee...the two things that make 40K great and different from other futuristic settings...because 40K is fantasy in space?

Sometimes I will not ever understand peoples motivations for playing or liking this game.

All I can say is I'm glad you don't work for GW.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
You hate psykers and melee...the two things that make 40K great and different from other futuristic settings...because 40K is fantasy in space?

Sometimes I will not ever understand peoples motivations for playing or liking this game.

All I can say is I'm glad you don't work for GW.

Luckily GW knows how to make melee suck as well. They make an army to fit so many play styles for others to enjoy. It’s a great concept. Don’t like it? The door is right there. Sometimes I will not ever understand people’s motivations for playing or liking this game that’s meant for many, just because they don’t like the style that individual likes. Hilarious.

Don’t like it? The door is right there.

No, I don't like it.

And I will remain here, guarding the door from people like you who seek to ruin it's greatness with watered down sci-fi bs.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

Don’t like it? The door is right there.

No, I don't like it.

And I will remain here, guarding the door from people like you who seek to ruin it's greatness with watered down sci-fi bs.

So because I like and play tau, a 40k faction designed to play as a Gunlines army whether castled or mobile, I’m seeking to “ruin” 40k? And you aren’t guarding anything little buddy

I agree that gunline lists are very dull for the player and the opponent.

They don't perform well in the current game either.

 Ishagu wrote:
I agree that gunline lists are very dull for the player and the opponent.

They don't perform well in the current game either.

Yet Gunlines castle tau are topping events?

Some events, they do pretty well.

Is it thrilling to play? No

When does the fun of your opponent comes before your own anyway? I don't like melee all that much, should I deny playing against melee heavy lists?

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
So because I like and play tau, a 40k faction designed to play as a Gunlines army whether castled or mobile, I’m seeking to “ruin” 40k? And you aren’t guarding anything little buddy

Thank you for demonstrating the point very nicely. Tau used to be a mobile shooting faction with JSJ short-range gun platforms, tanks that could move at full speed while shooting without penalties, etc. The fact that Tau players seem to have collectively decided to ignore the movement phase in favor of setting up a gunline and mindlessly rolling dice, and GW has pandered to their demands by removing the mobility aspect of the Tau army in favor of more gunline pieces, is one of the worst things to happen to 40k.

OP asks for some fun castle lists that he can play for ITC events.

Thread turns into a metric gak ton of gak posting about how gunlines are not fun and if people like the game in a different way than I do they are wrong and terrible people. Well played Dakka stay classy folks.

As for the topic at hand I think Admech can play a pretty strong Castle set up. However keep in mind ITC will punish pure Castles. A good chunk of the secondary objectives are movement based and its going to be real hard to score hold more objectives if you don't leave your deployment zone.

 Bobthehero wrote:
When does the fun of your opponent comes before your own anyway?

I don't know, but gunlines aren't fun for the gunline player either. Not playing a gunline is a win/win scenario unless you're playing in a tournament where you're willing to slog through a miserable waste of time as long as it gets you a win.

I don't like melee all that much, should I deny playing against melee heavy lists?

Not really comparable. Melee involves player decisions, movement, etc. Even if it isn't realistic it's still a much more engaging game for both players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Salt Mine wrote:
OP asks for some fun castle lists that he can play for ITC events.

Thread turns into a metric gak ton of gak posting about how gunlines are not fun and if people like the game in a different way than I do they are wrong and terrible people. Well played Dakka stay classy folks.

As for the topic at hand I think Admech can play a pretty strong Castle set up. However keep in mind ITC will punish pure Castles. A good chunk of the secondary objectives are movement based and its going to be real hard to score hold more objectives if you don't leave your deployment zone.

OP asked for fun lists, not just how to win most effectively. And gunlines are not fun for either player.

Well, the actual good tau lists generally also include plenty of mobile elements, since to win you need to get out there and take objectives.

On the op, I originally read it as "funniest gunlines" so was thinking of some sort of lol ork build (though ork gunline is actually a valid strategy right now with lootas, mek guns, etc.)

There are always Tau and IG who fluffwise go for gunlines, though both also have notable mobile elements (suits and tanks) and close combat options (ogryn, catachan, for tau its short range shooting like breachers, stealth suits, all the not super sad builds for crisis suits)

But if you really want to confuse people, use master tactician Kharn. Someone upthread mentioned that chaos can gunline with deamon engines. This is a specific instance of that, where you use Kharn for full re-rolls on your deamon engine gunline (sadly he can probably only get 4 in his aura since it is only 3''). The hilarious part of this is that you are using world eaters for a gunline. Though if you are playing world eaters, you really need to bring beserkers, so I am not sure if it really counts as a gunline if it is only part of your army...

OP asked for fun lists, not just how to win most effectively. And gunlines are not fun for either player.

Who are you to decide whats fun for someone else or not. That's literally of one of the most asinine thing I have ever heard on these forums which is saying a lot. I know it may be a strange concept to you but different people like different things.

The Salt Mine wrote:

OP asked for fun lists, not just how to win most effectively. And gunlines are not fun for either player.

Who are you to decide whats fun for someone else or not. That's literally of one of the most asinine thing I have ever heard on these forums which is saying a lot. I know it may be a strange concept to you but different people like different things.

As someone who (I hope) isn't as divisive as Peregine is, I agree with him to an extent.

Gunlines are, in general, not especially fun for either player. That's not to say it's impossible to have fun with them, or you're wrong for liking them, but generally you'll have a better time with a more well-rounded list, and ESPECIALLY more fun for your opponent. Which does matter-it's a game. Both sides should have a good time.

The Salt Mine wrote:
Who are you to decide whats fun for someone else or not. That's literally of one of the most asinine thing I have ever heard on these forums which is saying a lot. I know it may be a strange concept to you but different people like different things.

I am God, so of course I get to decide. However, the number of people agreeing with me should be a pretty strong hint that I'm not some weird fringe extremist and gunlines are genuinely not fun for most people. And why would they be fun? We're talking about an army that ignores the movement and melee phases (and probably also ignores the psychic phase) in favor of deploying in the farthest corner and mindlessly rolling shooting dice until someone wins. It's the least interaction possible in a game that is already shallow and struggling for meaningful interaction.

 Peregrine wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:
Who are you to decide whats fun for someone else or not. That's literally of one of the most asinine thing I have ever heard on these forums which is saying a lot. I know it may be a strange concept to you but different people like different things.

I am God, so of course I get to decide. However, the number of people agreeing with me should be a pretty strong hint that I'm not some weird fringe extremist and gunlines are genuinely not fun for most people. And why would they be fun? We're talking about an army that ignores the movement and melee phases (and probably also ignores the psychic phase) in favor of deploying in the farthest corner and mindlessly rolling shooting dice until someone wins. It's the least interaction possible in a game that is already shallow and struggling for meaningful interaction.

Ah makes more sense now much like a "real" god you are contributing nothing of actual worth to the conversation at hand other than whining and complaints.

Yaktan wrote:
Well, the actual good tau lists generally also include plenty of mobile elements, since to win you need to get out there and take objectives.

On the op, I originally read it as "funniest gunlines" so was thinking of some sort of lol ork build (though ork gunline is actually a valid strategy right now with lootas, mek guns, etc.)

There are always Tau and IG who fluffwise go for gunlines, though both also have notable mobile elements (suits and tanks) and close combat options (ogryn, catachan, for tau its short range shooting like breachers, stealth suits, all the not super sad builds for crisis suits)

But if you really want to confuse people, use master tactician Kharn. Someone upthread mentioned that chaos can gunline with deamon engines. This is a specific instance of that, where you use Kharn for full re-rolls on your deamon engine gunline (sadly he can probably only get 4 in his aura since it is only 3''). The hilarious part of this is that you are using world eaters for a gunline. Though if you are playing world eaters, you really need to bring beserkers, so I am not sure if it really counts as a gunline if it is only part of your army...

Don't even need to bring kharn or daemon engines, Infact if you go to tourneys just don't.

A scourged or Purge MSU spam list can achieve the same level of insanity.

5 man CSM squad with Lascannons that get full to hit rerolls all the time? (Scourged?)
A lot of small CSM squads with big guns like lascannons or AC and a Combiplas Champ as baseline, Lascannon Havocs, Hellbrutes with lascannons and missile launchers, access to the great sorcerer stratagem, might come in handy to get a clutch smite in. Maybee even meltas? (JK probably not go with plasma)


5 man Squads that get full rerolls if you have some "marker " units (probably a Jumplord or two with big guns or some smaller CSM squads marking for the big meanies for the Prurge)

The concepts there, the list that works with them is the main issue but o feel that especially the purge with a minimalistic marker squad approach could work very well.
Infact might even be the right list for a bunch of bikers with combibolters and plasma guns for maximum lolz.

Inherently though CSM are a hybrid faction with some of it's strongest tools bound into Melee.and movement and psy.
Also the new daemon engine sucks, it's a rhino, no seriously because the guns ain't firing if it allready died and it will die.

The Salt Mine wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

The Salt Mine wrote:
Who are you to decide whats fun for someone else or not. That's literally of one of the most asinine thing I have ever heard on these forums which is saying a lot. I know it may be a strange concept to you but different people like different things.

I am God, so of course I get to decide. However, the number of people agreeing with me should be a pretty strong hint that I'm not some weird fringe extremist and gunlines are genuinely not fun for most people. And why would they be fun? We're talking about an army that ignores the movement and melee phases (and probably also ignores the psychic phase) in favor of deploying in the farthest corner and mindlessly rolling shooting dice until someone wins. It's the least interaction possible in a game that is already shallow and struggling for meaningful interaction.

Ah makes more sense now much like a "real" god you are contributing nothing of actual worth to the conversation at hand other than whining and complaints.

Honestly, if it was any other poster than Peregrine, I’d consider calling herself that would be a joke. But seeing how she has spent the majority of her time on here telling everyone how her way is the ONLY right way to play, it wouldn’t surprise me if she has a deity-complex.

Look, at the end of the day, everyone has to decide what is fun for them. I LOVE seeing static gun lines across from me, because I play speedy lists. They’re lucky if they get a turn to shoot before I’m knocking on their doorstep. Gunlines seemingly don’t require much thought other than target picking, but you can have an enjoyable game squishing them under your boot, if that’s what you face. Look for weaknesses and ways to break through defense. If a person wants to run a one-tone army, hey, they’re missing out on a chunk of the game. But they made that call. Just rush them and they’re forced into two more phases they didn’t want to play. They’re playing by your rules now.

So let me get this straight: your defense of how "fun" gunlines are is that you get to effortlessly win against them? If winning is so easy then why bother playing the game? Just declare yourself the winner and play a more interesting game against someone else.

I sorta agree with gun lines not being all that fun to play against. Any list that largely skips most of the phases of the game/ is virtually non interactive to me isn't all that interesting to play against. 8th kinda makes this worse with movement and positioning being at a low point other than worrying about auras and terrain being a joke right now.

Ok I’m not even all of the way through the comments. If you do not like gun line/castle lists please leave my thread. I’m not looking to hear negative opinions. I’m asking for advice on fun gun line lists. If you don’t like them that’s fine, but you’re comments do not add anything helpful to my post. 40k is a very vast game with tons of playstyles. The group I play with feels the same way. We are all fine facing whatever “cheese” or “cheap” lists our friends bring because that’s part of the game. Not every army and ever lists has to interact in every phase of the game. Some armies specialize in one or two phases and that’s their thing. I was looking for advice on one that is fun and effective in the shooting phase so please only comment if you have constructive comments regarding that topic.

Thanks, Drdotts

 Peregrine wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
When does the fun of your opponent comes before your own anyway?

I don't know, but gunlines aren't fun for the gunline player either. Not playing a gunline is a win/win scenario unless you're playing in a tournament where you're willing to slog through a miserable waste of time as long as it gets you a win.

They're not? I wonder what was I feeling then, when I played my gunline, because it certainly felt like enjoyement.

And where do you draw the line on what exactly counts as a gunline?

Does my Tau list built around a core of firewarriors with a fireblade count as a gunline? Does the fact that it has 6 squads of breachers change that? Does a line of 30 breachers running all across the front of my deployment zone count as a gunline, when they want to sprint at the enemy and shoot them? How about stealth suits and ghostkeels? I use 2 of each plus shadowsun to take over the center of the board. Does the fact I have a big blob of shooting make it a gunline, or does the fact it deploys right in my enemy's face make it not gunline?

If it does count as gunline, then it is a good anwer for the OP, since it is quite fun. Also no one expects Tau to be running at them flat out to get in point blank range. Though a few people in my meta are starting to catch on a little bit.

Drdotts wrote:
Ok I’m not even all of the way through the comments. If you do not like gun line/castle lists please leave my thread. I’m not looking to hear negative opinions. I’m asking for advice on fun gun line lists. If you don’t like them that’s fine, but you’re comments do not add anything helpful to my post. 40k is a very vast game with tons of playstyles. The group I play with feels the same way. We are all fine facing whatever “cheese” or “cheap” lists our friends bring because that’s part of the game. Not every army and ever lists has to interact in every phase of the game. Some armies specialize in one or two phases and that’s their thing. I was looking for advice on one that is fun and effective in the shooting phase so please only comment if you have constructive comments regarding that topic.

Thanks, Drdotts

It's not "cheese" that people are complaining about, it's the "fun" bit, and I think you need to expand on this before you're going to get anything sensible (other than the previously mentioned Druhkari mechanised list). Especially if you want a list that is both fun to play and play against at a ITC event.

If you're just asking how to make the best castle gunline because you enjoy shooting the enemy as they run at you, honestly it's not the place for this kind of list, because in a straight match up they don't make good games. It's like a Tennis match where both players have an unbeatable serve, but can't return to save their lives. You might win some games but you won't win the tournament and your opponents won't have enjoyed playing against you.

If you're asking how to make a castle gunline fun, then I think that can definitely work - but you are kind of playing as an NPC army, or maybe something closer to a GM. We've had some good fun with a series of small games based around learning the way 8th ed and the various armies work - series of short games played back to back where you're adding increasingly more things into the scenario. Though generally we started with the scenario set up so that the gunline had no chance of winning - so a smallish IG platoon with a bit of cover that is up against Kraken genestealers etc, poised to get a first turn charge. Quick 15min game seeing the gimick play out, then reset and redeploy to work out how to mitigate that threat - then if that works, Tyranids add an extra component to the rush and the IG try to come up with something to help counter that, or vice versa. So it ends up being a series of mini-games based around deployment, manoeuvre and spacing.

Clearly not something that'd work in an ITC setting, but might lay the groundwork for something that is a bit more fun and has a castle gunline at it's core.

Or you could means something else by fun? Something that's short ranged but very mobile, or army built around a gunline that you know isn't enough and so the main strength is also in the counter attack? Admech can do the latter fairly well, if you take a core of Kataphrons, and can also be quite mobile whilst still wanting to castle up. For the former, the previously suggested Knights are Druhkari are good options, would have previously said Tau but you're having to sacrifice so much so often to fit this playstyle it kind of feels that you're just doing it for the sake of it rather than as a proper army build.

Drdotts wrote:
If you do not like gun line/castle lists please leave my thread. I’m not looking to hear negative opinions. I’m asking for advice on fun gun line lists.

Then please define what you mean with fun gunline lists. A pretty extensive number of people stated that they don't have fun playing against gunlines and in my experience it's also not the most fun i can have playing my armies as such. For the majority in this thread having fun involves both themselves and the opponent and that is where static gunlines fall flat.
Personally I love my mechanized Tau, are they as strong as a similar static list? Most likely not, at least in editions 5th to 7th but are they rewarding, fun and engaging for both you and your opponent? Way more!

 Shadox wrote:

Drdotts wrote:
If you do not like gun line/castle lists please leave my thread. I’m not looking to hear negative opinions. I’m asking for advice on fun gun line lists.

Then please define what you mean with fun gunline lists. A pretty extensive number of people stated that they don't have fun playing against gunlines and in my experience it's also not the most fun i can have playing my armies as such. For the majority in this thread having fun involves both themselves and the opponent and that is where static gunlines fall flat.
Personally I love my mechanized Tau, are they as strong as a similar static list? Most likely not, at least in editions 5th to 7th but are they rewarding, fun and engaging for both you and your opponent? Way more!

I mean he basically admits here that "Fun" is just his personal experience, in a way.

Imo he could just replace "FUN" with best possible.