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Hi everybody! I don't think I've shared this video I made before here, and it seems like a shame not to, as I'm pretty pleased with it.




Basically this is a comprehensive look at GW's publishing history of Malal the renegade god and how they lost his copyright, as well as what they've done with the concept (with the serial numbers filed off so they don't get sued) afterwards.

Do you guys wish they would do more with Malice (lawyer friendly Malal) and the Sons of Malice or do you think they should stay in the background? Personally I think they shouldn't take too much of a central role, although a Black Library book or even a series featuring everyone's favorite Chaos hunting Chaos Marines could be nice.

To quote Manclesiarch Decius XXIII: "He doesn't exist, shut up about it."

If GW were to continue on that thread I think it would just devalue the concept. It's better to keep things vague.

Maybe someone can make a video about the Starchild and the Sensei. There's definitely a need for it.

Nurglitch wrote:
Maybe someone can make a video about the Starchild and the Sensei. There's definitely a need for it.

I kind of like the concept of the Sensei although it is a bit noblebright. I know that they were supposed to be the human offspring of The Emperor on a secret mission to help him be reborn, and the Starchild is essentially the resurrected Emperor's warp fetus. And then GW put a footnote in some source that The Sensei were a cult of Tzeentch that was wiped out by the Inquisition, Squatting them. Of course now that the Squats have returned in some capacity...

Is all of that right? Unfortunately I don't know what all the original sources for info on The Sensei were to look them up. It's mostly OG Rogue Trader stuff, right?

It is hard to say. The Sensei retcon was later implied to be retconned itself that it was a Tzeentch plot to trick the Inquisition into wiping out some of the Sensei and thus doing Chaos' work for them. All very wheels within wheels.

The Starchild fluff has actually been hinted at being resurrected in the last year or so. I will try and find the exact storyline but it has a Primaris Marine on the verge of death meeting a golden being of light who welcomes him. The Marine asks if he is the Emperor and the being replies that he was once. He then asks the Marine if he wishes to rest. The Marine considers and then says he wishes to keep fighting. The figure sadly warns him that there will be pain. The Marine accepts and awakens to find himself being interred into a Redemptor Dreadnought.

There's also Imperious, the Solar Priest, and what Guilliman finds in the throne room.

 Karhedron wrote:
It is hard to say. The Sensei retcon was later implied to be retconned itself that it was a Tzeentch plot to trick the Inquisition into wiping out some of the Sensei and thus doing Chaos' work for them. All very wheels within wheels.

It was more like it was that an Inquisitor thought they were an insidious Chaos cult. A sad commentary on the self-destructive nature of the Imperium's culture of ignorance.

Can someone sum this up for me? I don't know any of the background here.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Can someone sum this up for me? I don't know any of the background here.

Basically early 40k used some dudes IP and then the dude said "pay me" so GW said "Ok we'll just not use the IP".

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
It is hard to say. The Sensei retcon was later implied to be retconned itself that it was a Tzeentch plot to trick the Inquisition into wiping out some of the Sensei and thus doing Chaos' work for them. All very wheels within wheels.

It was more like it was that an Inquisitor thought they were an insidious Chaos cult. A sad commentary on the self-destructive nature of the Imperium's culture of ignorance.

Well like so many other things in 40k, it's left open to interpretation. If you wanted to you could just as easily say that the Sensei, while they really did believe they were children of the Emperor, were duped by Tzeentch. If you wanna make it more grimdark.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Can someone sum this up for me? I don't know any of the background here.

Basically early 40k used some dudes IP and then the dude said "pay me" so GW said "Ok we'll just not use the IP".

To clarify: GW hired freelancers to write for them and those freelancers copyrighted all of their creations without telling GW. GW was dumb to not specify in a contract that they would have rights to make models, etc, but they didn't just steal someone's characters and put them in Warhammer. The characters were WRITTEN for Warhammer, and the writers were paid for writing.

Gotcha.

Probably the most interesting thing about it is how little impact it has. The name appears a very small number of times in very early editions (3rd edition fantasy being one of the later mentions), usually in a short list of chaos gods.

The impact on the setting was functionally nil even at the time the name still popped up. That it still gets referenced at all is pretty mystifying.

Everyone has their own head-canon that can make a mountain out of a mole-hill. I remember, for example, when stuff like the Carnifex was referred to as a 'bio-construct,' and Tyranids had 'mind-slaves' which I still think is a neat way of making sense of the whole "Tyranid" name. So I have this elaborate personal head-canon incorporating these things, and I used to like telling people about it in the hope that they might like it too.

Voss wrote:
Probably the most interesting thing about it is how little impact it has. The name appears a very small number of times in very early editions (3rd edition fantasy being one of the later mentions), usually in a short list of chaos gods.

The impact on the setting was functionally nil even at the time the name still popped up. That it still gets referenced at all is pretty mystifying.

It still gets referenced because the concept of renegade Chaos gods is fascinating to many fans. I believe even the writer of Labrynth was just a fanboy before managing to become a BL writer. This is something that lives more with the fans than the official product for obvious reasons. For a long time the Squats were the same way, and other things like the Sensei that we've talked about on this thread are the same.

It's had so little impact on the official writing because the copyright issues came up way back in second edition Warhammer Fantasy. It was only a very brief window of time that Malal was legally allowed to be a thing.

 fallinq wrote:
It still gets referenced because the concept of renegade Chaos gods is fascinating to many fans.

Well, Malal's shtick is rebellion and anarchy. Bringing down the system and sticking it to the man, man! The kind of things that speak to the angsty teenager inside all of us.

Nurglitch wrote:
There's also Imperious, the Solar Priest, and what Guilliman finds in the throne room.

I know none of those things.

Tangentially, the concepts of hatred and treachery got rolled in to the horned rat in the fantasy setting. It gets talked about in this months white dwarf (also DIGGANOBZ in AoS are also alluded to)! It's not that much of a tangent either, as far as I'm aware Malal was never referenced as such in the 40k setting. He's only existed as 'Malice' or in vague allusions.

nareik wrote:
Tangentially, the concepts of hatred and treachery got rolled in to the horned rat in the fantasy setting. It gets talked about in this months white dwarf (also DIGGANOBZ in AoS are also alluded to)! It's not that much of a tangent either, as far as I'm aware Malal was never referenced as such in the 40k setting. He's only existed as 'Malice' or in vague allusions.

That's because the legal troubles around Malal sprung up before first edition Rogue Trader. 40k didn't even exist yet (sheesh, watch the video guys, it covers all of this and is only about 15 minutes long!). But since GW has said that the warp in fantasy and 40k is the same and connected to both universes, that would retroactively make anything that's canon for the warp in fantasy/AoS also canon for the warp in 40k.

As for the Horned Rat, I never got the same vibe from him. He always seemed to be more about sneaky, self-promoting opportunism than self-loathing omnicidal rage.

I figured the Horned Rat was a Tzeentch/Nurgle team-up.

Nurglitch wrote:
I figured the Horned Rat was a Tzeentch/Nurgle team-up.

That's exactly my problem with him. At least Malal has a unique domain. The Horned Rat's entire schtick falls into other gods' territories. He works as a race specific god, but the Chaos gods are emotion based. The Horned Rat doesn't represent a unique set of emotions. Everything about him is already covered by Nurgle and Tzeentch.

Thank you!! I was not aware of the history. Learned some cool stuff. Really appreciate this.
I seen some malal memes before, they makes sense now lol.

Really liking the idea of Malal/ Malice or something else entirely.. I think another Chaos diety would be awesome for the setting.

He could be called 'malice' officialy and we can just call him malal, screw those two back stabbing old farts . (I mean fair enough tbh, they got screwed over on judge dredd so i get why they did it..) I understand GW IP policy a bit more now.

 fallinq wrote:

nareik wrote:
Tangentially, the concepts of hatred and treachery got rolled in to the horned rat in the fantasy setting. It gets talked about in this months white dwarf (also DIGGANOBZ in AoS are also alluded to)! It's not that much of a tangent either, as far as I'm aware Malal was never referenced as such in the 40k setting. He's only existed as 'Malice' or in vague allusions.

That's because the legal troubles around Malal sprung up before first edition Rogue Trader. 40k didn't even exist yet (sheesh, watch the video guys, it covers all of this and is only about 15 minutes long!). But since GW has said that the warp in fantasy and 40k is the same and connected to both universes, that would retroactively make anything that's canon for the warp in fantasy/AoS also canon for the warp in 40k.

As for the Horned Rat, I never got the same vibe from him. He always seemed to be more about sneaky, self-promoting opportunism than self-loathing omnicidal rage.

Are they? I thought they were technically separate hence why AOS had the silliness of Slaanesh being imprisoned.

 Argive wrote:
Thank you!! I was not aware of the history. Learned some cool stuff. Really appreciate this.
I seen some malal memes before, they makes sense now lol.

Really liking the idea of Malal/ Malice or something else entirely.. I think another Chaos diety would be awesome for the setting.

He could be called 'malice' officialy and we can just call him malal, screw those two back stabbing old farts . (I mean fair enough tbh, they got screwed over on judge dredd so i get why they did it..) I understand GW IP policy a bit more now.

Glad you liked it! What you're describing with Malal/Malice is basically how fans of the renegade god are now.

Zuvassin and Necoho are also still technically cannon, at least if like me you consider anything that hasn't been directly contradicted by later fluff canon. Necoho is pretty much impossible to write though due to the whole "doesn't want followers, gets weaker the more followers he has" oxymoron schtick which basically shot writers in the foot from inception. Zuvassin could have interesting stuff done with him though.

pm713 wrote:

Are they? I thought they were technically separate hence why AOS had the silliness of Slaanesh being imprisoned.

Well, that is how GW explained many crossover elements they added into various works over the years, like special equipment that was clearly 40k gear being found on Albion in Fantasy and the entirety of Liber Chaotica. And while I could care less about the Albion stuff, you can take Liber Chaotica from my canon when GW pries it from my cold, dead, mutated hands.

And remember, GW fluff also states that Slaanesh was simultaneously born and has always existed because of how time flows in the warp. So the pervert prince could also very easily be both missing and existing in the Warp at the same time. Though I'm not a fan of the "Slaanesh is missing" plot point anyway. Chaos WON the End of Times. Why did they lose one of their gods?

I'm pretty sure they killed the connection a bit ago. Part of their general program of killing fun I think.

 fallinq wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Thank you!! I was not aware of the history. Learned some cool stuff. Really appreciate this.
I seen some malal memes before, they makes sense now lol.

Really liking the idea of Malal/ Malice or something else entirely.. I think another Chaos diety would be awesome for the setting.

He could be called 'malice' officialy and we can just call him malal, screw those two back stabbing old farts . (I mean fair enough tbh, they got screwed over on judge dredd so i get why they did it..) I understand GW IP policy a bit more now.

Glad you liked it! What you're describing with Malal/Malice is basically how fans of the renegade god are now.

Zuvassin and Necoho are also still technically cannon, at least if like me you consider anything that hasn't been directly contradicted by later fluff canon. Necoho is pretty much impossible to write though due to the whole "doesn't want followers, gets weaker the more followers he has" oxymoron schtick which basically shot writers in the foot from inception. Zuvassin could have interesting stuff done with him though.

pm713 wrote:

Are they? I thought they were technically separate hence why AOS had the silliness of Slaanesh being imprisoned.

Well, that is how GW explained many crossover elements they added into various works over the years, like special equipment that was clearly 40k gear being found on Albion in Fantasy and the entirety of Liber Chaotica. And while I could care less about the Albion stuff, you can take Liber Chaotica from my canon when GW pries it from my cold, dead, mutated hands.

And remember, GW fluff also states that Slaanesh was simultaneously born and has always existed because of how time flows in the warp. So the pervert prince could also very easily be both missing and existing in the Warp at the same time. Though I'm not a fan of the "Slaanesh is missing" plot point anyway. Chaos WON the End of Times. Why did they lose one of their gods?

victories aren't always without cost

pm713 wrote:
I'm pretty sure they killed the connection a bit ago. Part of their general program of killing fun I think.

Is there an official source for that though? Be careful of making assumptions about canon based on the consensus of some forum.

 fallinq wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'm pretty sure they killed the connection a bit ago. Part of their general program of killing fun I think.

Is there an official source for that though? Be careful of making assumptions about canon based on the consensus of some forum.

Not as far as I know. I'm assuming it based on the Slaanesh thing in AoS.

 fallinq wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'm pretty sure they killed the connection a bit ago. Part of their general program of killing fun I think.

Is there an official source for that though? Be careful of making assumptions about canon based on the consensus of some forum.

There's nothing in writing, but every time the studio guys have been asked about it since the late 90's, they've said that the two universes are separate.

The 'link' was just a throwaway line in one of the RT books to explain the elements shared between the two games. From 2nd edition onwards, the backgrounds slowly diverged, and while there was still the occasional subtle crossover, and daemons continued to be shared by both systems, there's really no link between them these days other than wishful thinking.

 insaniak wrote:

 fallinq wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'm pretty sure they killed the connection a bit ago. Part of their general program of killing fun I think.

Is there an official source for that though? Be careful of making assumptions about canon based on the consensus of some forum.

There's nothing in writing, but every time the studio guys have been asked about it since the late 90's, they've said that the two universes are separate.

The 'link' was just a throwaway line in one of the RT books to explain the elements shared between the two games. From 2nd edition onwards, the backgrounds slowly diverged, and while there was still the occasional subtle crossover, and daemons continued to be shared by both systems, there's really no link between them these days other than wishful thinking.

Wishful thinking and the four Liber Chaotica books published in 2008. A guy from the Empire in Warhammer Fantasy writing detailed descriptions of the Traitor Legions and the Fall of the Eldar isn't exactly a "subtle" crossover.

 insaniak wrote:

 fallinq wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I'm pretty sure they killed the connection a bit ago. Part of their general program of killing fun I think.

Is there an official source for that though? Be careful of making assumptions about canon based on the consensus of some forum.

There's nothing in writing, but every time the studio guys have been asked about it since the late 90's, they've said that the two universes are separate.

The 'link' was just a throwaway line in one of the RT books to explain the elements shared between the two games. From 2nd edition onwards, the backgrounds slowly diverged, and while there was still the occasional subtle crossover, and daemons continued to be shared by both systems, there's really no link between them these days other than wishful thinking.

There were the occasional winks that the warp could be connected, that didnt help. After all when i started Warhammer Fantasy (the edition where Sigvald got a model) one of the Magic Weapons you could take for Warriors of Chaos was the 'Rending Blade' a sword described as having teeth and snarling when it was swung.