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Good afternoon/morning/evening all,

I've joined a few leagues recently that are starting up at a few places locally so as I've not played in a while, the games I've played have resulted me in making misplays or mistakes that an experienced player wouldn't even think to make. The competitiveness of the leagues vary but I plan on getting better not just for competitive tournaments but for myself to help me enjoy the game more.

This got me thinking, what pieces of advice could the Dakka community give to help players of varying experience become better at 40k?

Rather than answer my own question I'd like to put it out there and have a discussion. All advice is welcomed, from knowing the missions to all the little nuances of close combat (something I know very little about), ETC/ITC tips to Eternal War.

Cheers!

I’d say try to play the same list for awhile. You’ll get more comfortable with it and remember the rules. Also what helped me when I was first getting started was just constantly reading the rule books. Hope this helps.

Mostly it comes down to experience, I think. 40k isn't a phenomenally deep game in terms of tactics and strategy, but it is a very lethal game, so mistakes can be costly. Fortunately, it's often very easy to prevent those mistakes being made because most of the time a turn in 40k amounts to going through a checklist of things to remember - things like getting units in range of the right enemies, staying in range of aura bubbles, zoning out potential dropzones for enemy deepstrikes, etc.

Paying attention to the maths also helps. You need to understand what the likely outcomes of your attacks are, so you don't waste shots by shooting something you can't meaningfully hurt, or don't overkill something and waste a powerful unit's attack. Experience also helps with that too.

In general - and this applies to all wargames, IMO - a willingness to analyse your games dispassionately and objectively is the best way to become a better player. Think about what went well and what didn't, what was in your control and what was out of your control. That includes list building. Don't bemoan bad dice, but think about how you can mitigate bad rolls. In my experience the players who don't improve tend to be the ones who don't analyse their own games properly and blame everything except themselves for losses. So you're already halfway to improving by acknowledging there are things you need to work on.

Play the mission. Don't go for kills just because you want to kill stuff. Unless Kills give you good amount of points without you sacrificing too many in return.

Second I just suggest playing more and be aware of the mistakes you make. The more you play the more familiar you get with your own pitfalls.

Third, play with a somewhat varied group of people. If you always play against the same opponent you might get too accustomed to a limited set of playstyles.

Personally I think these are the most important things to think about.

Target Priority, what are the most dangerous things on the board to you right now.

Board Control, how many objectives can you hold in one go and does your opponent have any deep striking units, the more of the board you control the les options your opponent has to position them.

Shoot What You Can Kill, focus down on units you know you can kill that turn, death by a thousand cuts is meaningless.

The Mission, what are the most important requirements to win? For example, if I'm playing Cut Off the Head then I'll place my Archons with intel points into reserve, given that you score 3 points per round for having your characters with intel points alive at the end of Battle Round 3, whilst the central objective is only worth 1 point, keeping your characters alive is paramount.

Most of all, remember that all of the above is a balancing act, as you play more and get more experience with your own army and agaisnt other armies you'll understand better what you need to do in any given turn.

A few things in my experience make a player "good"

1. Game knowledge. Know the stats and average damage output of every model in the game is a HUGE HUGE advantage. This lets you estimate average damage outputs for your enemy, and where and how badly you will lose or win. Also prevents the "Gotcha!" moments when the enemy unit does something completely wacky and creates a situation you can't recover from.

2. Play to the mission. A lot of new players get kill-drunk and just meat grinder their models away in situations that do little to actually win the game.

If you're playing against better players, talk to them afterwards and get a brief run-down of your game. What were they expecting you to do? What in your list were they worried about? What opportunities did you miss? Did you do anything daft?

I certainly think all the above is good advice. I'd add that you will be able to tell if you are a better player once you start consistently being able to react less to your opponents actions and start forcing them to react to yours more.

-

A few thoughts:

1) When possible take notes during the game, even a photo of the start and end of each turn can be a great help in memory jogging. A copy of your opponents army list also helps in review. If you can video record that's even better (but unless you've very good audio don't rely on the audio component because it might be hard to hear esp if recorded in a game hall with echos and other gamers)
Basically take a few moments to log the game, this provides you a wealth of information at the end. Furthermore by logging it you've a greater chance to reflect and learn from the game without forgetting key details or miss remembering aspects of it. It also means that you can go check out the stats for a unit you had trouble with, perhaps your opponent threw something that didn't seem to be heavy armour at you, but upon review you find that anti-heavy armour would have been the best counter.

This way even a defeat gives you tools to work with for next time.

2) Play to the objectives. This is very common advice, but without context and examples it often proves to be hard to visualise in the game because often as not killing more of your opponent does help you get to the objectives.
So in general terms I would change this to "don't let yourself be goaded into a fight." Ergo that powerful unit your opponent is talking big about sitting right ontop of an objective - you don't have to fight it. Don't play into their idea and instead go for the other objectives instead. Learn that you don't have to hold them all to win, just more of them than your opponent.
A great part of this is staying focused on the game, paying attention and also not getting blinkered vision on the game state and missing that objective sitting out in the sticks that both of you forgot or are ignoring (or which you've an eye that your opponent is going to drop those deep striking units on in the last turn -at least then you can contest it if not claim it by moving something there yourself).

3) Learn to take losses. Yep learn to sacrifice units, to get an eye (practice helps) for what iwll die to what etc... Sometimes you can win by plugging a gap in the terrain with units just to prevent your opponent reaching a certain point. You don't throw your army away, you use it tactically including using them to die.
Meanwhile a Khorne player might throw a unit into the enemy to die to generate blood tokens to give them a summoning power to throw something down on another part of the board.

4) Have a plan. Yep have a plan for your army and what each unit is "doing" within your army. Don't just put down a unit because its cool, put it down because you have a plan for how you will or might use it. This helps you out a lot once you base this plan in the context of the game and table before you.
Again this can seem like really unhelpful advice to newbies because having a plan is hard when you're not quite sure what you "should" be doing etc... So its something that grows with time; but do keep a mind to it.

5) Read your codex - then read it again - then take notes. Basically learn your army well. You might not know every other army, but learn your army well. Know what makes it tick, what units do what; which combos are going to work; learn what possible ideas you want to consider.

6) Learn the game rules too! And by this I mean beyond the turn sequence of events, learn the mechanics of the game. This means learning a bit of probability and also about damage and attacks. Basically put the model aside and look at the numbers that comprise its stats and learn how to read them. What's a good weapon skill or ballistics skill; which unit is going to be tough in close combat; which one will falter if it takes any damage, but will kill anything it hits; which unit needs alpha (first) strikes and which can take a load of damge and still come out fighting.

This not only helps you in making your army and your game plan, but also helps you greatly in reading the game and your opponents army. A quick glance at their codex and the stats on their units and you can get a rough idea what the role and best function of each unit is even without reading their special abilities.

7) Practice and learn about good board terrain layouts. Yep this is one skill MANY forget, esp as its shared with your opponent most times (though isn't present in most tournament where terrain is pre-set). Basically learn how to make a good fair table - things like ensuring line of sight blocking; avoiding clumping up terrain or spreading it out too thin; ensuring there's enough on the board. Heck this also helps a lot in choosing what side you might start on or avoiding an accidental situation where the terrain heavily favours one faction over the other when it was not intended too.

8) Shake hands, be respectful etc... Yep be a generally good person and a good sport. Not only with the game go smoother and faster, but you make it far more fun for yourself and your opponent.

9) Pay attention. It's sort of alluded too above, but this deserves its own mention. Even when its not your turn, keep your eye on the game. Not only are you then ready to roll dice etc..., but it also means you've got an eye on your opponent and can prevent any accidental mistakes in the rules (no you're not playing "gotcha cheater" you're just helping them play a complex game where its possible to forget, miss interpret or miss use the rules)
It also helps you start to work out what your opponents plan of action might be, getting an idea of that can help you turn the tables on tehm and counter their choices.

10) Use a dice box/tower. Sounds simple, but keep your dice contained and behaving themselves when rolling; nothing worse than mixing up dice or rolling onto the floor or into other models.

Slipspace wrote:


In general - and this applies to all wargames, IMO - a willingness to analyse your games dispassionately and objectively is the best way to become a better player. Think about what went well and what didn't, what was in your control and what was out of your control. That includes list building. Don't bemoan bad dice, but think about how you can mitigate bad rolls. In my experience the players who don't improve tend to be the ones who don't analyse their own games properly and blame everything except themselves for losses. So you're already halfway to improving by acknowledging there are things you need to work on.

This. I have some friends who are into high level competitive poker. The more your chosen hobby includes elements out of your control - randomness, equipment, starting advantages - the more you MUST isolate and understand their influence while observing your own actions, and separate result from action.

If a poker player makes a choice that has a 25% chance of success and wins the hand, then makes a choice that has a 75% chance of success and loses, they will become a worse player if they judge what they should do based on results. The single best skill a 40k player can develop is when they get unlucky, shrug and understand if you made the right move, and if you get lucky, shrug and check to make sure you didn't make the wrong move.

#1 - Play against better players.
When you play against better players, you learn what makes them better than you, and you can start copying and imitating what they do. I've played against a few top, pro players (literally playing this game for their livelihood), and they are so far ahead of me on their plans and plays. I really upped my game when I saw how they approached the missions.

#2 - Make a strong list, even if it's a net list, then play it over and over without changing it.
A huge part of the game is having a really good understanding of what your own units are capable of. I don't just mean the stats of "this many shots * this chance at a hit * this chance at a wound", but rather "do I want this unit running forward, or holding the back line?" "will this unit be a primary target, merely engaged, or generally ignored?" and "in what situations is this unit most effective?". You'll come to find that while most units in the game follow similar generalities, just a few stat tweaks can make huge differences to questions like this. Net lists are fine too, and while some people argue that it's not "your creation", you're still the one that needs to pilot it. If others can win with a net list and you can't, then it's almost definitely because of YOU, and not the list.

#3 - Play against strong lists.
This hurts, but playing against strong lists makes you better. Note, however, that strong lists are not necessarily "fun" lists, so this is a good litmus test for what kind of game you want to play. That said, playing against triple Castellan, or Plaguebearer spam with all the support characters, or Bash Brothers lists, etc. etc. etc. - these are tough lists that even lower-skilled players will have an easy time winning with. Learning to play against these lists will force you to stretch your understanding and learn.

#4 - Play against lots of different players and lists.
No two players play the game exactly the same, even when playing the same list. The more variety you expose yourself to, the more you'll learn. There are some weird interactions in the game, and some potent combos. Even some units that you know you know, you don't really know. Great example, for me, are my Atalan Bikers for Genestealer Cult. A lot of people say "you're paying 10 points for a Guardsman on a bike". It's true, but there are a bunch of tiny changes that make thinking like this dangerous in how I play them. For one, they have an intrinsic -1 to being hit at range. For two, they're T4, not T3. And lastly, they are 2 wounds each, with an additional model at 3 wounds. These add up to meaning that the unit takes just a little bit more to kill than what you think it does (yes, you reading this right now, even though I just told you all the pertinent info).

40K is first and foremost a listbuilding game. To reach the top, you need to select your faction and units without any other consideration than their effectiveness (which can change vastly with new rules/FAQs).
Not being attached to the looks/lore/paintjob of the minis is therefore quite important.

About the in-game decisions, all the above advice is good.
I would add that it's also important to remember that the effect of most of your decisions also depends on luck (dice rolls). Because of that, it's paramount to not judge the quality of a decision (whether it was the right thing to do or not) based on the result.
For instance, you might hesitate to shoot at a unit for whatever reason. It's very common for people to do it, and then think it was the right call if they destroy that unit, or on the contrary think it was a bad decision if they ended up not killing it. The fact that the targeted unit got destroyed or not was only a result of the specific dice rolls, over which they have no control.
When you have to make a decision, you only know (or could calculate) the probability distribution of the possible outcomes, not the exact result of dice rolls you'll end up doing, which is why they don't matter in the decision process. It sounds pretty obvious, but it's a very common psychological bias to evaluate a decision like that based on the random outcome, not on the underlying distribution.
And if you don't properly assess if a decision was right or wrong, you can't learn properly.

So if you hesitate a lot on a specific thing like shooting/assaulting a unit, and can't evaluate the possible outcomes precisely in a few seconds, it's probably good practice to write down the thing you're wondering about, and then on the next day, come back to it and do the math to help you figure out what the right call was (sometimes we have the impression that our unit can do some serious damage, while in fact the expected number of wounds is ridiculously low). And of course you have to force yourself to make complete abstraction of the result you ended up having (which is easier on the next day than right after the game).

All of the above is good advice.

Instead of repeating what others have said I'm going to take it a different direction and say

A: Get a good nights sleep.
B: Eat well before hand.
C: Don't be distracted.

You'll be able to focus, learn, and improve faster.

Be humble in both victory and defeat. You will get more games that way and therefore more experience.

Also, hygeine. A shower beforehand and deoderant isn't expensive.

Other than that, what the guys and gals above said.

My advice for 40k is the same advice I'd give you for life: don't be afraid to make mistakes, but always learn from them. Even the best players still screw up every now and then, but as long as you learn something from it, then you'll continue to improve.

Only perfect practice makes perfect; you can build bad habits by practising things badly, just as you can build good habits through the repetition.

Money and no attachment to your old models make a better player. Buy the new stuff with OP rules and ROFL-stomp the noobs. Then when the nerf bat comes sell the new stuff and get the next high tier unit. Players trying to make 10 year old models work are left behind. Old strategies become obsolete. The less attached you are to the fluff and story the better.

Also dont spent too much time painting. That gives less time to abuse units before they are nerfed. Quick effective schemes or comissions are the way to compete.

Not being a total donkey cave

Doesn't matter if its casual, balls to the walls competitive or any where in the spectrum

just dont be an ass and we will all have a good time.

besides that. as much knowledge of the game, its mechanics and rules. it speeds up the game for everyone, you can plan out your moves in advance, make solid calculations on chances and make the best possible moves. this is good for both casual and competitive.

Crispy78 wrote:
If you're playing against better players, talk to them afterwards and get a brief run-down of your game. What were they expecting you to do? What in your list were they worried about? What opportunities did you miss? Did you do anything daft?

A lot of this. But also against "worse players" will learn something. Theres value in vicotry and defeat. However "Rolf Stomping" a much weaker list and player will not really let you grow or be enjoyable imo so not sure whay anyone would want to do that...

Also, this might not be popular, but once you have your tourney list down and fine tuned, maybe take a slightly weaker list on purpose to make you work harder and think more tacticaly?
Like sparing with 18oz gloves to make it harder or turning up a computer game diffculty to hard/ultrahard to get better...


On the whole, mostly what everyone else said.
I would add watching tactica battle reports. It's helpful, as you learn other armies cabailities to some degree without having to play them.
I have never played necrons as there is no regular dedicated necrons players in my area, but I know from watching bat reps that destroyers need to go first and they need to be overkilled. ANd that goes for all units in their roster because of re-animation.

I'll expand upon "math" to say that a strong understanding of dice probability is very important. Rolling one die has an equal chance of any result. Rolling even one more die drastically changes this. You've got a 1/6 change to get a 7, but only a 1/36 to get a 2 or 12.

As the number of dice rolled increase, the less deviation from the average 3.5 per die there will be.

You can use that to establish a baseline of how good you can expect your units to do, and how many hits it will take for them to be killed. Very useful both when making your list and during the actual battle.

Gitdakka wrote:
Money and no attachment to your old models make a better player. Buy the new stuff with OP rules and ROFL-stomp the noobs. Then when the nerf bat comes sell the new stuff and get the next high tier unit. Players trying to make 10 year old models work are left behind. Old strategies become obsolete. The less attached you are to the fluff and story the better.

Also dont spent too much time painting. That gives less time to abuse units before they are nerfed. Quick effective schemes or comissions are the way to compete.

Couldn't disagree more. Buying the latest hotness will NOT make you a better player.

The movement phase. The movement phase is the single most important phase of the game and getting really, really good at it will improve your game more than anything else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gitdakka wrote:
Money and no attachment to your old models make a better player. Buy the new stuff with OP rules and ROFL-stomp the noobs. Then when the nerf bat comes sell the new stuff and get the next high tier unit. Players trying to make 10 year old models work are left behind. Old strategies become obsolete. The less attached you are to the fluff and story the better.

Also dont spent too much time painting. That gives less time to abuse units before they are nerfed. Quick effective schemes or comissions are the way to compete.

I know this is tongue in cheek but it's also a belief held genuinely by enough people that it needs to be addressed.

All this does is waste huge chunks of money on things you don't actually want. Beating noobs is easy, just building an army that makes sense is enough to go on a massive winstreak in locals. Spend 100$ picking up mini-marines on ebay, you'll be fine.

Beating someone who knows what they're doing using an army you don't know well isn't gonna happen. Using the 'OP' stuff actually makes your chances worse because a good opponent will know how to deal with all the meta stuff.

 Desubot wrote:
Not being a total donkey cave

Doesn't matter if its casual, balls to the walls competitive or any where in the spectrum

just dont be an ass and we will all have a good time.

besides that. as much knowledge of the game, its mechanics and rules. it speeds up the game for everyone, you can plan out your moves in advance, make solid calculations on chances and make the best possible moves. this is good for both casual and competitive.

to sum up what he said,

Don't sweat the small stuff.

I think the single most important thing about improving is to *never* blame bad luck for a loss.

Chances are, you (generic you, myself included) put yourself in bad situations where you needed Good luck to be successful.

After the game, talk to your opponent and ask what you think you should of done better. And ask what "traps" they laid that you fell into.

Ask them what they were worried about in your game plan. Maybe you had a threatening position but didn't realise it! An open and honest post-game analysis with your opponent's help will improve your game dramatically.

And, as has been mentioned, don't make drastic changes to your list between games. Learning a solid core of your army, what you can expect it to do and NOT to do, is the basis of your pre-game strategy. You may face a lot of hordes, or lots of armour in your metagame. You'll probably naturally adapt your game as you grow your force to be able to handle a wider variety of threats.

Build a list and play it at least 3 times, maybe even more, win or lose. Learn how to work around your weaknesses, leverage your strengths, and conversely, learn to limit your opponent's strengths and maximise their weaknesses. Does your opponent have a flank without anti-tank weapons? Put your armour on that side! Do your opponents over commit their forces forwards? Wait a couple turns then deepstrike behind them, forcing them to split their forces.

People are more creative, the fewer resources they have. So limit your resources and see what you can come up with, then change your resources to make those options easier, or more reliable.

Maybe don't over think it, and try go with your gut feeling on what is the best move, because it may be you are over thinking it which is making you do things you don't necessarily need to do etc when your gut was right the whole time ( gut / heart what ever ).


Just a guess though, i don't actually have a clue.

These are all really good tips folks, I've definitely found a massive help in talking about the game afterwards with my opponent helps me learn a lot about my list and the weaknesses or strengths.

One thing I need to learn more is how people use close combat to shut down certain armies or how people use area of denial through stringing out units to deny deepstriking. I encountered the latter on Thursday and it amazed me how useful it can be to deny an enemy landing 9" away from you.

A firm handshake and greeting to start the game.

If you want to play better you want to enjoy it, if you're at a tournament playing a completely new person then you need to be on good terms before the game begins.

However as a less generic answer, I think that being able to eye up distances is another really important thing. Movement itself, for me, is where the game is won. If you've got a decent army, then dice rolls after that are superfluous- expect less than average across your rolls in general and always expect the worst by preparing for it.
So when you move you need to be aware of weapon distances, objective placements, the opponent's game plan (ie are they trying to get into combat or shoot from short range or stay far far away?) Charge ranges, screening important stuff, baiting units, zoning etc etc. For this you need to know your units well, and the distance they can move very well.
Premeasuring every distance not only slows the game down but let's your opponent know what you don't want then to do that may not have been initially apparent to them. This may not be as important if you're playing a better player, but showing them the distances lets them know where your heads at in what you want to happen- they can then outmanoeuvre to counter this
However premeasuring I have also seen used as an intimidation tactic. During your opponents movement it may be possible to get in their head by measuring movements/ranges as if you are formulations a plan they do not know about. While this is effective a lot of the time, you must be wary of not providing too much information. Out mind game your opponent and then outmanoeuvre them.

Well that's my late night ramble, hopefully that makes sense, I need to sleep now damn

Honestly.
Don't be a jerk. Like everyone has said.

And remember your own rules. I have to say, some players completely forget their army's core rules like Death to the False Emperor for Chaos, for example. Running the same units repeatedly helps with that.

List Building. 40k is won at the List Building stage in 8th. The best player in the world playing Mono Grey Knights won't beat the average player using Imperial Knights+Custodes+Guard.

List building is only important if you're playing competitively. And even then, you don't need the current top meta lists to "have a chance". Sure, a top player running the worst possible list is gonna have a hard time beating someone running the best stuff around. But give that top player a better list (not necessarily one of the best), and they'll do fine.

Not that you'll be dealing with top tournament lists 90% of the time anyway. I doubt very much you'll be in an area where people ONLY play Eldar Flyers and Knight+Guard (or other "top" lists). I feel like most people play "fluffier" than the meta would have you think.