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OK, I know that SM have ships, all the way up to large capital ships (battle barges). I also know that there are space based fleets, so the existence of the ships is not really my question, but rather:
How much of a space marine chapter is actually space marines?

I got to thinking this after playing BFG where there space marines are engaging in mass space combat, but here is the issue/question:
Is the 1000 space marines in the codex supposed to include all of the aerospace assets too?

Is there any fluff for marines that spend most of their time learning aerospace stuff (pilot, spaceship captain, etc.) In a ship with thousands of servitors, how many Space Marines are there? Same thing for flying units, artillery, etc.

I guess I just want to know how much of a Space Marine Chapter are actually Space Marines?

-STS

There are lots and lots of Chapter serfs and servitors. The Marines themselves probably make up less than 5% of the actual headcount.

Marine battle vehicles are crewed by some combination of line troopers, dedicated armory crew (often some form of techmarine), and servitors. Depends on your source material.

All of the above will vary from chapter to chapter.

5% sounds like a good starting point. I suppose there is some rule that prevents the Chapter from actually having the serfs being troops, to keep the Chapter from becoming a Legion.

Do any of the Chapters have auxiliary troops? I know the Smurfs have some close ties with the Macragge PDFs, and there are some stories where a Space Marine squad shows up and takes over training/leading a PDF. I guess as long as the SM gives up command afterward it is ok.

-STS

Marine chapters’ best asset is always its infantry and all its ops have to be based on deploying and supporting infantry. This is the reason that the fleet is subordinated to infantry commanders, and all the marines commanding ships or tanks are actually part of infantry squads at that very moment and are very temporarily taking a duty of commanding the ships.

All the operations ordered by the marine commanders are executed by serfs and these are the personnel that are specialized in navy ops.



However, the only true tech priests a chapter usually has are tech marines, so a huge portion of the 30-50 tech marines a chapter has will need to be on ships taking care of the ships’ engines. There will be lay-adepts though so not every escort needs a full-time tech priest / techmarine.

Chapters not having dedicated navy marines is official. Lots of GW’s space combat game rules were published in the magazine for specialist games, Fanatic:

"A Space Marine is far too valuable to waste in manning a gun or watching a surveyor screen, and so only the officers aboard a vessel are likely to be Space Marines, as well as the few Techmarines who oversee the engines and perform other mechanical duties." (Fanatic Magazine 6, p. 54)

Almost all of the ship's systems are run and monitored by servitors; [they] are wired into the vessel's weapons, engines, and communications apparatus. There are also a few hundred Chapter serfs to attend to other duties, such as routine cleaning and maintenance, serving the Space Marines during meal times and other such honored tasks. These serfs are fanatically loyal to their superhuman masters, and are indoctrinated into many of the lesser orders of the Chapter's Cult. Although human, they still benefit from remarkable training and access to weaponry superior to that usually found on a naval vessel, making them a fearsome prospect in a boarding action." (Fanatic Magazine 6, p. 54)

"Usually, one of the Chapter's Captain will be appointed Master of the Fleet with overall responsibility for the Chapter's entire fleet. This will place at his disposal all the pilots, gunnery officers, command crews and navigators in the chapter. Whilst these serfs make up the vast bulk of crews aboard Space Marine vessels, the Master of the Fleet also has a number of Space Marines under his command, who act as high-ranking officers aboard the fleet's vessels, providing captains for individual vessels, leading specialised boarding parties." (Fanatic Magazine 6, p. 55)

"The exact organization of those Space Marines tasked with crewing the fleet varies from Chapter to Chapter. In some cases, it will be the Master of the Fleet's own company who provide these Marines, with each of his veteran captains acting as captain to a different vessel within the fleet while their own squad members each man a different vital area within that same vessel. In other cases, squads from different companies within the Chapter may be charged with manning the fleet, serving under the command of the Master of the Fleet in just the same way as a Space Marine battleforce may be made up of squads drawn from several companies across the Chapter under the battle-command of a single, nominated force commander." (Fanatic Magazine 6, p. 55)

"At an absolute minimum, a Master of the Fleet typically needs eighty to a hundred Marines to properly crew the fleet, its Thunderhawks and its landing craft, and most Chapters have measures in place to ensure that a astanding force of this size is permanently available to the Master of the Fleet, be it his own company in its entirety, or squads from across the Chapter left permanently at his disposal." (Fanatic Magazine 6, p. 55)

"As with all specialized roles which a Space Marine may be honored, serving in the fleet brings with it a variety of different titles and ranks...In this manner, a Space Marine force commander may well find that he is charged with command of both the battleforce and the transporting fleet, earning him additional honorifics such as Regent of the Fleet, Command at Sail and so on. A Marine's heraldry and personalized armor markings may well bear emblems of his service within the fleet, additional honors and titles gained there, or other emblems signifying their role within the fleet." (Fanatic Magazine 6, p. 55)

regarding how many marines are on a ship total I'm gonna guess that it's proably at least 5. IIRC most modern naval ships operate on a 6 watch system. so I'll guess that a space marine vessel has eeugh marines aboard to ensure one marine is on the bridge at every watch. given space marines can get by with less sleep, 5 seems solid.

pelicaniforce wrote:
Marine chapters’ best asset is always its infantry and all its ops have to be based on deploying and supporting infantry. This is the reason that the fleet is subordinated to infantry commanders, and all the marines commanding ships or tanks are actually part of infantry squads at that very moment and are very temporarily taking a duty of commanding the ships.

All the operations ordered by the marine commanders are executed by serfs and these are the personnel that are specialized in navy ops.



However, the only true tech priests a chapter usually has are tech marines, so a huge portion of the 30-50 tech marines a chapter has will need to be on ships taking care of the ships’ engines. There will be lay-adepts though so not every escort needs a full-time tech priest / techmarine.

Chapters not having dedicated navy marines is official. Lots of GW’s space combat game rules were published in the magazine for specialist games, Fanatic:

"A Space Marine is far too valuable to waste in manning a gun or watching a surveyor screen, and so only the officers aboard a vessel are likely to be Space Marines, as well as the few Techmarines who oversee the engines and perform other mechanical duties." (Fanatic Magazine 6, p. 54)

Almost all of the ship's systems are run and monitored by servitors; [they] are wired into the vessel's weapons, engines, and communications apparatus. There are also a few hundred Chapter serfs to attend to other duties, such as routine cleaning and maintenance, serving the Space Marines during meal times and other such honored tasks. These serfs are fanatically loyal to their superhuman masters, and are indoctrinated into many of the lesser orders of the Chapter's Cult. Although human, they still benefit from remarkable training and access to weaponry superior to that usually found on a naval vessel, making them a fearsome prospect in a boarding action." (Fanatic Magazine 6, p. 54)

"Usually, one of the Chapter's Captain will be appointed Master of the Fleet with overall responsibility for the Chapter's entire fleet. This will place at his disposal all the pilots, gunnery officers, command crews and navigators in the chapter. Whilst these serfs make up the vast bulk of crews aboard Space Marine vessels, the Master of the Fleet also has a number of Space Marines under his command, who act as high-ranking officers aboard the fleet's vessels, providing captains for individual vessels, leading specialised boarding parties." (Fanatic Magazine 6, p. 55)

"The exact organization of those Space Marines tasked with crewing the fleet varies from Chapter to Chapter. In some cases, it will be the Master of the Fleet's own company who provide these Marines, with each of his veteran captains acting as captain to a different vessel within the fleet while their own squad members each man a different vital area within that same vessel. In other cases, squads from different companies within the Chapter may be charged with manning the fleet, serving under the command of the Master of the Fleet in just the same way as a Space Marine battleforce may be made up of squads drawn from several companies across the Chapter under the battle-command of a single, nominated force commander." (Fanatic Magazine 6, p. 55)

"At an absolute minimum, a Master of the Fleet typically needs eighty to a hundred Marines to properly crew the fleet, its Thunderhawks and its landing craft, and most Chapters have measures in place to ensure that a astanding force of this size is permanently available to the Master of the Fleet, be it his own company in its entirety, or squads from across the Chapter left permanently at his disposal." (Fanatic Magazine 6, p. 55)

"As with all specialized roles which a Space Marine may be honored, serving in the fleet brings with it a variety of different titles and ranks...In this manner, a Space Marine force commander may well find that he is charged with command of both the battleforce and the transporting fleet, earning him additional honorifics such as Regent of the Fleet, Command at Sail and so on. A Marine's heraldry and personalized armor markings may well bear emblems of his service within the fleet, additional honors and titles gained there, or other emblems signifying their role within the fleet." (Fanatic Magazine 6, p. 55)

That is awesome information. Thank you!

-STS

Solid info drops so far.

I'd add that this is a classic marine question: who drives the rhinos? There's at least 110 rhinos in the chapter (1 for each squad at full strength) plus rhino variants, plus land raider variants, plus land speeders, etc etc. Classic lore had a single marine driving the Rhino, and the assault company manning the speeders and bikes. Draw too many marines from the companies to operate ships, vehicles and tanks and suddenly the only marines in the chapter left for infantry work are the ones that happen to be in your carry case.

Spoilered for nitpicking math

It is more reasonable for brothers attached to the vehicle pool to count as 'specialists' and not 'battle brothers' from the 1000 battle brother limit, in the same way Officers, Apothecaries, Librarians Dreadnoughts and Techmarines (who train them) seem to be excluded from that headcount. By the same token it is not unreasonable for ship crew/defense teams to be excluded from that number.

For narrative rule of cool you want 5 marines minimum (a demi squad) on each ship larger than an escort- otherwise it could be boarded and captured without marine intervention. Anything serfs do is strictly 'off screen' background noise in a space marine chapter, they live fight and die without ever being noted by the players.

In Betrayer, a major plot point is the World-eaters that were supposed to be protecting the ship buggering off to join the fight instead- indicating that legion policy was not not leave ships with just serfs for defence.

The long and short of it is, you can have your own chapter operate differently or make headcanon for existing chapters that suits you better.

slade the sniper wrote:
I suppose there is some rule that prevents the Chapter from actually having the serfs being troops, to keep the Chapter from becoming a Legion.

Not that I'm aware of - the Ultramarines have a PDF trained by them, and the Space Wolves' moral troops accompany them in 'Ashes of Prospero'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 =Angel= wrote:
I'd add that this is a classic marine question: who drives the rhinos

Iron Hands ones are driven by Servitors in a couple of their short stories.

beast_gts wrote:

slade the sniper wrote:
I suppose there is some rule that prevents the Chapter from actually having the serfs being troops, to keep the Chapter from becoming a Legion.

Not that I'm aware of - the Ultramarines have a PDF trained by them, and the Space Wolves' moral troops accompany them in 'Ashes of Prospero'.
.

So a Chapter can be a legion in everything but name?

Ah, yes the vehicle driver issue...

Currently my theory is this:
The pilots and drivers are full brothers that got wounded to a point where simple bionics won't do the trick, but not the point of needing to be interred into a dreadnought. That way marines can continue to serve up until dead dead, not just mostly dead.

Marines can lose limbs and get bionics, lose half their body and become a pilot or lose 75% of their body and become a dreadnought.

At least that is what I am going with right now so that way Chapters can be compliant with "1000 Marines" but not really counting all their treadheads and pilots. It is kinda stupid, but that is my mental gymnastics.

-STS

slade the sniper wrote:

beast_gts wrote:

slade the sniper wrote:
I suppose there is some rule that prevents the Chapter from actually having the serfs being troops, to keep the Chapter from becoming a Legion.

Not that I'm aware of - the Ultramarines have a PDF trained by them, and the Space Wolves' moral troops accompany them in 'Ashes of Prospero'.
.

So a Chapter can be a legion in everything but name?

Ah, yes the vehicle driver issue...

Currently my theory is this:
The pilots and drivers are full brothers that got wounded to a point where simple bionics won't do the trick, but not the point of needing to be interred into a dreadnought. That way marines can continue to serve up until dead dead, not just mostly dead.

Marines can lose limbs and get bionics, lose half their body and become a pilot or lose 75% of their body and become a dreadnought.

At least that is what I am going with right now so that way Chapters can be compliant with "1000 Marines" but not really counting all their treadheads and pilots. It is kinda stupid, but that is my mental gymnastics.

-STS

The "1000 marines per chapter" thing has always been kinda meaningless anyway. If you don't have to count apothecaries, chaplains, techmarines, librarians and command staff in the "1000 marines", it's not much of a stretch to say you don't have to count pilots.
There are 1000 marines in a purely fighting role and an undefined number in a support role. Having the badly injured ones transferred from frontline to support would be sensible.

Tiennos wrote:

slade the sniper wrote:

beast_gts wrote:

slade the sniper wrote:
I suppose there is some rule that prevents the Chapter from actually having the serfs being troops, to keep the Chapter from becoming a Legion.

Not that I'm aware of - the Ultramarines have a PDF trained by them, and the Space Wolves' moral troops accompany them in 'Ashes of Prospero'.
.

So a Chapter can be a legion in everything but name?

Ah, yes the vehicle driver issue...

Currently my theory is this:
The pilots and drivers are full brothers that got wounded to a point where simple bionics won't do the trick, but not the point of needing to be interred into a dreadnought. That way marines can continue to serve up until dead dead, not just mostly dead.

Marines can lose limbs and get bionics, lose half their body and become a pilot or lose 75% of their body and become a dreadnought.

At least that is what I am going with right now so that way Chapters can be compliant with "1000 Marines" but not really counting all their treadheads and pilots. It is kinda stupid, but that is my mental gymnastics.

-STS

The "1000 marines per chapter" thing has always been kinda meaningless anyway. If you don't have to count apothecaries, chaplains, techmarines, librarians and command staff in the "1000 marines", it's not much of a stretch to say you don't have to count pilots.
There are 1000 marines in a purely fighting role and an undefined number in a support role. Having the badly injured ones transferred from frontline to support would be sensible.

The Antaro Chronus fluff supports this too- he is commander of the Ultramarines armoured forces, and is described as having the unique position of commanding 50 battle brothers himself, whilst only being answerable to the Chapter Master (not a Captain). So those 50 Marines are not from a company, and therefore must be directly attached to the Armoury to crew vehicles.

Storm Ravens further support this- they are piloted by what appear to be Techmarines, yet Chapters seem to have less Techmarines than they do Storm Ravens- suggesting there is a seperate reserve of pilots not counted in the Armoury totals.

Serfs being frontline troops doesn't make a Chapter a "Legion in all but name". To be a Legion a Chapter needs have notably more than a thousand battleline Marines- standard humans are considered auxillary to this and not counted at all. Marines are expected to take some degree of command over PDF/Guard/Navy forces in any warzone they enter (not usually as overall commander, but part of the most senior council) . In the 3rd War for Armageddon, for example, High Marshall Helbrecht of the Black Templars Chapter assumed overall command of all the Imperial fleet assets available and lead them in the naval war against the Orks. He was not considered to be Legion-building for commanding mortals.

 Haighus wrote:
Marines are expected to take some degree of command over PDF/Guard/Navy forces in any warzone they enter (not usually as overall commander, but part of the most senior council)

Except when they decapitate the human government of a world for corruption and incompetence. At least that doesn't happen very of.... oh wait.

beast_gts wrote:

slade the sniper wrote:
I suppose there is some rule that prevents the Chapter from actually having the serfs being troops, to keep the Chapter from becoming a Legion.

Not that I'm aware of - the Ultramarines have a PDF trained by them, and the Space Wolves' moral troops accompany them in 'Ashes of Prospero'.
.

The wolves just ignore the rules wholesale and always have....

The ultramarines technically don't "command" the macragge defence auxilia - that's prohibited by post-heresy rules.

BUT - the macragge defence auxilia are a PDF formation, answerable to their respective lord-governor, appointed by and answerable to the lord sector, who is an administratum official called Marneus Calgar, who happens to share a physical body with the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines.

These are, in the eyes of the law, two seperate individuals, much like when a lord-governor (who is PDF commander) is also a Cardinal (bound by the decree passive).

The Antaro Chronus fluff

The Antaro Chronus entry doesn’t say this. It says that he may command up to 50 marines in battle. It doesn’t say anything more about the marines. To me, it means that company captains concern themselves with marine-style infantry and combined arms operations, and full size tank warfare is so rare that on the rare occasions they do deploy a large number of their troops as tank crew, they bring in a specialist so that the captains can continue to command the important infantry-centric ops. Chronus would then be the only marine in the “armor company” and he temporarily takes command of big armor detachments from the normal companies. It’s definitely not adequate to have 50 marines being the entire tank crew for a chapter.

Storm Ravens

the storm raven entry in the sixth edition codex says that the seventh company pilot storm ravens.

Angel wrote:110 marines for rhinos (driver)

If it is using rhinos at all, a given battle company only needs a maximum of ten drivers at a time. There are nine regular squads and one command squad. Ten marines are driving their company’s rhinos and do not use a rhino. This was the model in the 6mm Space Marine game although at the time this meant 3x3 squads plus command, instead of 6-2-2-1.

Surely this doesn’t account for reserve marines supposedly driving vehicles? It doesn’t need to. Reserve company crews operate supporting vehicles. That’s just like their infantry role. Reserve squads are separate detachments that support battle companies. The classic description is that they defend a flank, make diversionary attacks, or function as a mobile reserve. That is, even when they are attached to a battle company they are a distinct unit.

There aren’t separate vehicle driver or armory units because they’ve never been conclusively described anywhere and company tactical squads driving vehicles have.

Marines also can’t have separate armory units because marines don’t have any vehicle crew to put in them. Marines exist to be infantry. A marine tank is just a couple of infantry marines with extra armor and guns. A marine capital ship is just an infantry marine with a bombardment cannon. All the equipment they have have to be just tools in the hands of infantry marines. They’re marine delivery systems, they aren’t tanks or ships at all.

pelicaniforce wrote:

The Antaro Chronus fluff

The Antaro Chronus entry doesn’t say this. It says that he may command up to 50 marines in battle. It doesn’t say anything more about the marines. To me, it means that company captains concern themselves with marine-style infantry and combined arms operations, and full size tank warfare is so rare that on the rare occasions they do deploy a large number of their troops as tank crew, they bring in a specialist so that the captains can continue to command the important infantry-centric ops. Chronus would then be the only marine in the “armor company” and he temporarily takes command of big armor detachments from the normal companies. It’s definitely not adequate to have 50 marines being the entire tank crew for a chapter.

The Antaro Chronus fluff says:

5th edition Space Marine codex, pg. 89 wrote:Antaro Chronus. Brother-Sergeant of the Ultramarines Armoury.
Antaro Chronus is the most gifted of the Ultramarines tank commanders. Whilst most such warriors dedicate themselves to the mastery of a particular vehicle, Chronus' abilities extend to almost any vehicle in the armoury of the Adeptus Astartes...
...For a Space Marine to be assaigned to serve in the Armoury is an honour indeed, and to do so is to be entrusted with command of the Chapter's most valuable weapons of war. It is a transition that few battle brothers are able to make, for the crew must suppress their physical self and adopt the adamantium behemoth's form as their own. A crewman must act decisively and instinctively with the tank as he would with his own limbs.The tank's sensors and wayfinders become the commander's eyes and ears, its weapons his fists and rage, and its armour his skin...
...It is a unique position of authority within the Ultramarines, for it means that although Sergeant Chronus has command over some fifty brother Marines, he himself is not subject to the orders of a Captain and answers in all things only to Lord Macragge.

Seems an awful lot like the Ultramarines, at least, maintain a dedicated cadre of Marines dedicated to crewing Predators, Whirlwinds, and Vindicators, and probably the Chapter reserve of Ultramarines Land Raiders. This entry clearly describes Marines being assigned to the Armoury as crewmen, and suggests they need extensive specialisation as vehicle crew beyond a normal Marine. The final point regarding Chronus commanding 50 Marines could be interpreted as meaning an ad hoc formation, but it is equally valid to interpret it as a permanent force of vehicle crews attached to the Armoury.

The Ultramarines are the textbook Chapter for the Codex Astartes, so it has to be assumed that this is the default pattern of organisation for Armoury crew.

Storm Ravens

the storm raven entry in the sixth edition codex says that the seventh company pilot storm ravens.

Yet the model is clearly a Techmarine, with the Adeptus Mechanicus symbol on one shoulder, and typically painted in Mechanicus livery by GW. Is the 7th Company trained as Techmarines now?

Angel wrote:110 marines for rhinos (driver)

If it is using rhinos at all, a given battle company only needs a maximum of ten drivers at a time. There are nine regular squads and one command squad. Ten marines are driving their company’s rhinos and do not use a rhino. This was the model in the 6mm Space Marine game although at the time this meant 3x3 squads plus command, instead of 6-2-2-1.

Surely this doesn’t account for reserve marines supposedly driving vehicles? It doesn’t need to. Reserve company crews operate supporting vehicles. That’s just like their infantry role. Reserve squads are separate detachments that support battle companies. The classic description is that they defend a flank, make diversionary attacks, or function as a mobile reserve. That is, even when they are attached to a battle company they are a distinct unit.

There aren’t separate vehicle driver or armory units because they’ve never been conclusively described anywhere and company tactical squads driving vehicles have.

Marines also can’t have separate armory units because marines don’t have any vehicle crew to put in them. Marines exist to be infantry. A marine tank is just a couple of infantry marines with extra armor and guns. A marine capital ship is just an infantry marine with a bombardment cannon. All the equipment they have have to be just tools in the hands of infantry marines. They’re marine delivery systems, they aren’t tanks or ships at all.

If Space Marines are supposed to be focussed on infantry, then why do they loose an entire tenth, or more, of their infantry strength in driving vehicles, rather than having dedicated crew specialists to drive vehicles and not eat into the mandated 1000 battleline Marines?

Imperial Armor 2, version 2, pg. 14:
"The crews for a Chapter's armoured vehicles comprise soley Space Marines, many assigned as required from the Tactical squads of the Chapters's 6th and 7th Companies. All Space Marines are trained in the operation of armored vehicles and armored formation tactics as part of their core indoctrination - some going on to specialise in armored operations, being trained in larger vehicles and being entrusted with basic maintenance tasks."

I take that last bit not as forming a separate pool of vehicle crewmen outside of the normal Company organization, but more as specializing in the sense that some marines specialize in heavy weapons, Centurion suits or deployment on bikes, etc. They can perform their regular role on the battle-line, but have an additional set of skills to maintain deployment flexibility.

Pg 13. (organization of an Executioners Strike Force):
"Each Company provided it's own Rhino transports and Razorbacks, whilst the 7th Company provided all the Land Speeder variants and the crew for the vehicles drawn from the Armory."

I could see there being a number of marines dedicated to fleet operations. Each company has a command squad of about 4 per company that's considered outside of the 1000 man loose maximum. A dozen or so marines per fleet seems ok.

 Red Marine wrote:
I could see there being a number of marines dedicated to fleet operations. Each company has a command squad of about 4 per company that's considered outside of the 1000 man loose maximum. A dozen or so marines per fleet seems ok.

it'd be more then a dozen, as I said, assuming 5 marines per major ship, and assuming a fleet of 3 battle barges and 8 strike cruisers. that's 55 marines devoted to fleet ops. then assume a single additional marine for each escort, and you're proably looking at a hundred marines dedicated to fleet ops. Thing is these Marines could easily be ones injured and unable to take the field.

That 55 is probably on the low side

I know the ultramarines are not the best example It I count 20 plus active capital ships before you add the star forts and Gloriana class battle ship

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Known_Vessels_of_the_Ultramarines

While a crew of 5 feels right for a strike cruiser I would have thought the bigger assets would warrant at least a full squad

Assuming the escort don’t have any marines on board your still looking at over 100 marines on full time fleet ops

it'd be more then a dozen, as I said, assuming 5 marines per major ship, and assuming a fleet of 3 battle barges and 8 strike cruisers. that's 55 marines devoted to fleet ops. then assume a single additional marine for each escort,

GW gives the number of total crew and the number of ships. We can guess from that how many are on each ship. There are 80-100 marines under the fleet master, and then everyone knows the 1-3 battlebarges etc.

I would say an escort squadron is a single unit and only needs one marine in command for the whole squadron. They might not need any at all since they are attached to capital ships, and all their actions would be at the command of the marine captains on those ships.

The 80-100 number says it also includes ships’ troops, who aren’t necessarily commanding any ship functions.

If Space Marines are supposed to be focussed on infantry, then why do they loose an entire tenth, or more, of their infantry strength in driving vehicles, rather than having dedicated crew specialists to drive

Insectum gave some quotes and glosses from Imperial Armor that say they do use infantry marines, and there are quotes from chapter approved and codex: ultras that say the same thing. If you want to talk about explanations to why marines do that it’s fine, but it hardly matters if it’s stupid or doesn’t make sense, it’s just what GW says.

pelicaniforce wrote:
it hardly matters if it’s stupid or doesn’t make sense, it’s just what GW says.

That's not really how lore stretching back decades works. Counter-intuitively, the less lore we are given the more we can just work with what we are given. When we get IA books that specify a silly steel armour thickness and silly top speed of a future tank, we have to rationalise and reinterpret the lore so it makes sense.

The tabletop game isn't changed by landraiders having 3 crew or 2, and whether they are techmarine aspirants or devastator squad members but it matters to the enjoyment of the lore. Specifically, when some intern pumping out a minidex tells us that part of commissar's training is to kill their best friend (despite this never coming up in the lore previously, despite it retroactively invalidating Cain and Gaunt and any commissar who wasn't a fething psychopath, despite it being so monumentally edgy that anyone reading it came away with their eyeballs bleeding) its just what GW says. That doesn't mean we have to take it at face value. Maybe there are particularly brutal schola progeniums where that is the case. Maybe a chaos propagandist wrote that.

GW writers having no sense of scale is a common problem - and if almost half the marines in a chapter are assigned some support role in the fleet, the transports, the tanks, the airforce, the chapter fortress and the kitchen (Chief Victualler), they don't really have ~100 squads of 10 men to deploy. And since the point of Marines is superb infantrymen that can adapt to battlefield roles on the fly, reducing that weakens the core concept just as the dreadknight weakens the heroic concept of men in armour going toe to toe with daemons.

Well, those marines aren't always deployed with their transport, predator, etc. They function as infantry when they need to be infantry, and support/recon/armor when they need it, respectively.

On the flipside, people always complain "1000 marines is so few!". . . But in reality, 40% (or whatever) of them can be "upgraded" to tanks, gunships and city-annihilating-warships. So then 1000 ingantrymen isnt really representative of what marines are actually bringing to the table.

This question is one (like most things SM) varies greatly from chapter to chapter. However my own personal interpretation of this is that simillar to the marines seperate from the 10 main companies (chaplains, librarians ect), there exsist a decent number of marines both in the chapter 'forge' and chapter 'fleet' departments (though due to the tech lore assosiated with both of them there is probably frequent transfers between the two).

Those scouts/battle brothers who show high proficiency in tech lore are likey inducted into the forge to undergo mechanical training. This will eventualy most likely lead to them becoming a techmarine and work allongside the rarely mentioned legion of non com chapter serfs and mechanicum tech adepts to keep all the chapter's weapons and vehicles (both ground and void based) in working order. More junior inducties to the forge are likely to begin their technical training by becoming intemately proficient with the machine spirits of the various chapter war machines; that is serving as dedicated crew for chapter tanks and air/voidcraft.

Though never specificaly mentioned in the fluff im of the oppinion that an entire tank/aircraft crew needn't be comprised of astartes. More likely the vehicle commander is a junior forge/fleet astartes while the other positions are filled by chapter serfs and servitors.

For annother note on chapter fleets it is not often noted just how many chapter serfs there must be working within the ships based on the huge numbers of personel who are needed to crew the massive imperial ships (even taking into acount the higher degree of automation SM vessels have). For example an imperial light cruiser (roughly equivalent to a SM strike cruiser) has a crew numbering somewhere near 60,000 (this includes all ranks of voidsmen, tech adepts and servitors).

After running the numbers with my own codex chapter's pretty average sized fleet I worked out that all told it probably included nearly one million various crewmen, officers, tech adepts, servitors and dock crew to keep the whole thing crewed, maintained and repaired at a good level of efficiency.

slade the sniper wrote:
OK, I know that SM have ships, all the way up to large capital ships (battle barges). I also know that there are space based fleets, so the existence of the ships is not really my question, but rather:
How much of a space marine chapter is actually space marines?

I got to thinking this after playing BFG where there space marines are engaging in mass space combat, but here is the issue/question:
Is the 1000 space marines in the codex supposed to include all of the aerospace assets too?

Is there any fluff for marines that spend most of their time learning aerospace stuff (pilot, spaceship captain, etc.) In a ship with thousands of servitors, how many Space Marines are there? Same thing for flying units, artillery, etc.

I guess I just want to know how much of a Space Marine Chapter are actually Space Marines?

-STS

As others have said Space Marines use loads of human auxiliaries and serfs for a lot of their logistical needs. Some of the time they're the failed or incomplete marines that didn't make it to scout but didn't die in the process either, but the great majority are just humans. Simply put this is one reason many Space Marine chapters have their own planets.

Space Marine fleets are predominantly made up of Strike Cruisers, Battle Barges, and smaller escort ships. Even the smallest escort ship is over a kilometer long with many thousand crew. A Strike Cruiser will typically have no more than a company of Space Marines while a Battle Barge can typically carry up to 3 companies. Escort ships might on occasion have a squad or two.

Sometime in the period before the 13th Black Crusade the Black Templars stood down their chapter to 1000, in compliance with the Codex Astartes, and yet through out the lore they clearly have over 7 battle barges and many Strike Cruisers... so there doesn't seem to be a limit on the fleet size of an Astartes fleet and it emphasizes just how extreme the number of serfs/servitors/human auxiliaries there are relative to the chapter itself.