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I'm curious about how people interpret the Vector Shift rule of the Nightwing.

Vector Shift: At the start of the Movement phase, before this model is moved, the controlling player must declare
if it is operating with either Extended Wings or Retracted Wings. When operating with Retracted Wings and this
model Advances, add 24" to its Move characteristic for that Movement phase instead of rolling a dice – it also
gains a 5+ invulnerable save until it switches to operating with Extended Wings. While operating with Extended
Wings, this model may be turned to face directly towards any one enemy model it has line of sight to instead of
performing its first pivot in the Movement phase (as per the Wings of Khaine ability), this model then adds 1
when making hit rolls against the chosen enemy model for the following Shooting phase, but also loses the Hard
to Hit ability until it switches to operating with Retracted Wings.

1. "At the start of the Movement phase, before this model is moved, the controlling player..." I interpret this as meaning the controlling player's movement phase, though it could be read as being every movement phase. If this occurs every movement phase, the controlling player could use extended wings on each of their turns to gain the +1 to hit bonus and then switch back on the opponent's turn, gaining hard to hit. If this occurs on your movement phase only, it means it will not gain either extended or retracted wings until the controlling player's first turn, which impacts my second question.

2. "When operating with Retracted Wings and this model Advances, add 24" to its Move characteristic for that Movement phase instead of rolling a dice – it also gains a 5+ invulnerable save until it switches to operating with Extended Wings". Is the 5++ contingent upon having both retracted wings and having advanced? This is my interpretation. However, the wording seems ambiguous enough that the 24" bonus to move and the 5++ could be taken as independent of one another. Curious as to what people think.

Orbei wrote:
I'm curious about how people interpret the Vector Shift rule of the Nightwing.

Vector Shift: At the start of the Movement phase, before this model is moved, the controlling player must declare
if it is operating with either Extended Wings or Retracted Wings. When operating with Retracted Wings and this
model Advances, add 24" to its Move characteristic for that Movement phase instead of rolling a dice – it also
gains a 5+ invulnerable save until it switches to operating with Extended Wings. While operating with Extended
Wings, this model may be turned to face directly towards any one enemy model it has line of sight to instead of
performing its first pivot in the Movement phase (as per the Wings of Khaine ability), this model then adds 1
when making hit rolls against the chosen enemy model for the following Shooting phase, but also loses the Hard
to Hit ability until it switches to operating with Retracted Wings.

1. "At the start of the Movement phase, before this model is moved, the controlling player..." I interpret this as meaning the controlling player's movement phase, though it could be read as being every movement phase. If this occurs every movement phase, the controlling player could use extended wings on each of their turns to gain the +1 to hit bonus and then switch back on the opponent's turn, gaining hard to hit. If this occurs on your movement phase only, it means it will not gain either extended or retracted wings until the controlling player's first turn, which impacts my second question.

2. "When operating with Retracted Wings and this model Advances, add 24" to its Move characteristic for that Movement phase instead of rolling a dice – it also gains a 5+ invulnerable save until it switches to operating with Extended Wings". Is the 5++ contingent upon having both retracted wings and having advanced? This is my interpretation. However, the wording seems ambiguous enough that the 24" bonus to move and the 5++ could be taken as independent of one another. Curious as to what people think.

1. RaW it triggers at the start of every movement phase. Standard FW poor writing.

2. Yes, you need to have done both. It's an If-Then statement. If X and Y then A and B.

Regarding point 1, to me it is pretty clear that RAI is for you to only do it in your own movement phase. Trying to argue that you should be allowed to do in in both player turns is not very sporting IMHO, although I can see the RAW justification.

 Bilge Rat wrote:
Regarding point 1, to me it is pretty clear that RAI is for you to only do it in your own movement phase. Trying to argue that you should be allowed to do in in both player turns is not very sporting IMHO, although I can see the RAW justification.

It is only for your own movement phase, because taking context into account means that it needs to be declared "At the start of the Movement phase, before this model is moved"

And you can only can move the model in one persons movement phase.

Therefore, if you do not ignore the context, you have the RAW saying it is only for the Movement phase of the person that owns the model, since you need to declare "before this model is moved"

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Bilge Rat wrote:
Regarding point 1, to me it is pretty clear that RAI is for you to only do it in your own movement phase. Trying to argue that you should be allowed to do in in both player turns is not very sporting IMHO, although I can see the RAW justification.

It is only for your own movement phase, because taking context into account means that it needs to be declared "At the start of the Movement phase, before this model is moved"

And you can only can move the model in one persons movement phase.

Therefore, if you do not ignore the context, you have the RAW saying it is only for the Movement phase of the person that owns the model, since you need to declare "before this model is moved"

FAQ disagrees with you.

WARHAMMER 40,000 RULEBOOK Official Update Version 1.5 wrote:Q: If an ability does not state its effects take place in a ‘friendly’ phase or ‘enemy’ phase, does that mean it works in every such phase (e.g. Mortarion’s Host of Plagues ability, which takes effect ‘at the start of the Fight phase’)?
A: Yes.

Or are FAQs not considered "context"?

"At the start of the Movement phase, before this model is moved, the controlling player must declare if it is operating with either Extended Wings or Retracted Wings."

This is the relevant part they were refering to. Ie: you have to declare whether it is operating with Extended or Retracted Wings *before* the model is moved. If you cannot move the model, then you also can't make that declaration. And, under normal circumstances, you cannot move in your opponent's Movement Phase. Unless you're suggesting we don't have to follow every part of a rule?

 flandarz wrote:
"At the start of the Movement phase, before this model is moved, the controlling player must declare if it is operating with either Extended Wings or Retracted Wings."

This is the relevant part they were refering to. Ie: you have to declare whether it is operating with Extended or Retracted Wings *before* the model is moved. If you cannot move the model, then you also can't make that declaration. And, under normal circumstances, you cannot move in your opponent's Movement Phase. Unless you're suggesting we don't have to follow every part of a rule?

Again, not true. The rule says "At the start of the Movement phase, before this model is moved". This triggers at the start of your opponents movement phase and is before the model is moved, thus activates. The fact that you normally could not move the model is irrelevant for the rules activation.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
"At the start of the Movement phase, before this model is moved, the controlling player must declare if it is operating with either Extended Wings or Retracted Wings."

This is the relevant part they were refering to. Ie: you have to declare whether it is operating with Extended or Retracted Wings *before* the model is moved. If you cannot move the model, then you also can't make that declaration. And, under normal circumstances, you cannot move in your opponent's Movement Phase. Unless you're suggesting we don't have to follow every part of a rule?

Again, not true. The rule says "At the start of the Movement phase, before this model is moved". This triggers at the start of your opponents movement phase and is before the model is moved, thus activates. The fact that you normally could not move the model is irrelevant for the rules activation.

You actually must declare if the wings are extended or retracted in every players turn, but you cant move it in the opponents movement phase, you dont have permission. You cant advance with retracted wings in the opponents movement phase, you dont have permission. You also cant turn the model, because turning is movement, and you dont permission to do so in the opponents movement phase.

 p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
"At the start of the Movement phase, before this model is moved, the controlling player must declare if it is operating with either Extended Wings or Retracted Wings."

This is the relevant part they were refering to. Ie: you have to declare whether it is operating with Extended or Retracted Wings *before* the model is moved. If you cannot move the model, then you also can't make that declaration. And, under normal circumstances, you cannot move in your opponent's Movement Phase. Unless you're suggesting we don't have to follow every part of a rule?

Again, not true. The rule says "At the start of the Movement phase, before this model is moved". This triggers at the start of your opponents movement phase and is before the model is moved, thus activates. The fact that you normally could not move the model is irrelevant for the rules activation.

You actually must declare if the wings are extended or retracted in every players turn, but you cant move it in the opponents movement phase, you dont have permission. You cant advance with retracted wings in the opponents movement phase, you dont have permission. You also cant turn the model, because turning is movement, and you dont permission to do so in the opponents movement phase.

Yes, agreed.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Bilge Rat wrote:
Regarding point 1, to me it is pretty clear that RAI is for you to only do it in your own movement phase. Trying to argue that you should be allowed to do in in both player turns is not very sporting IMHO, although I can see the RAW justification.

It is only for your own movement phase, because taking context into account means that it needs to be declared "At the start of the Movement phase, before this model is moved"

And you can only can move the model in one persons movement phase.

Therefore, if you do not ignore the context, you have the RAW saying it is only for the Movement phase of the person that owns the model, since you need to declare "before this model is moved"

FAQ disagrees with you.

WARHAMMER 40,000 RULEBOOK Official Update Version 1.5 wrote:Q: If an ability does not state its effects take place in a ‘friendly’ phase or ‘enemy’ phase, does that mean it works in every such phase (e.g. Mortarion’s Host of Plagues ability, which takes effect ‘at the start of the Fight phase’)?
A: Yes.

Or are FAQs not considered "context"?

Good thing the RAW in the BRB agrees with me.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Good thing the RAW in the BRB agrees with me.

FAQs overrule RAW. I don't like it, but it is what it is.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Good thing the RAW in the BRB agrees with me.

FAQs overrule RAW. I don't like it, but it is what it is.

Except that Vector Shift can not be used in every phase, in context it can only be used "At the start of the Movement phase, before this model is moved" Which, when taken in context means At the start of the friendly Movement phase.

Ignoring context causes issues like you are having with this.

Ok. Let's say that using it during your opponent's movement phase counts as "before you move" because you will eventually move on your own turn. What happens if the model is slain before your turn? Seems like a paradoxical situation to me. If your model is slain, it can no longer move. Thus anything it used that required it to move at a later time (because you used it "before you moved") would have been used illegally, correct?

I dunno. Seems like a lot of rules lawyering to potentially end at a situation in which you'd have to ignore RAW anyway.

Any other opinions on RAI for point 2, the 5++? The wording is so ambiguous that it can easily be read as being dependent or independent of advancing. My interpretation is dependent.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Good thing the RAW in the BRB agrees with me.

FAQs overrule RAW. I don't like it, but it is what it is.

Except that Vector Shift can not be used in every phase, in context it can only be used "At the start of the Movement phase, before this model is moved" Which, when taken in context means At the start of the friendly Movement phase.

Ignoring context causes issues like you are having with this.

You keep saying "context" as if that somehow changes the rules.

When operating with Retracted Wings and this
model Advances, add 24" to its Move characteristic for that Movement phase instead of rolling a dice – it also
gains a 5+ invulnerable save until it switches to operating with Extended Wings.

My reading of the above is that the 5++ applies after the model has advanced, but provided it doesn't subsequently switch to Extended Wings, the 5++ will continue to apply in subsequent turns whether the model advances or not. This seems a bit off, but unless I'm misreading then this is how the rule applies.

Aash wrote:

When operating with Retracted Wings and this
model Advances, add 24" to its Move characteristic for that Movement phase instead of rolling a dice – it also
gains a 5+ invulnerable save until it switches to operating with Extended Wings.

My reading of the above is that the 5++ applies after the model has advanced, but provided it doesn't subsequently switch to Extended Wings, the 5++ will continue to apply in subsequent turns whether the model advances or not. This seems a bit off, but unless I'm misreading then this is how the rule applies.

Agreed. Once its wings are retracted, and it advances its got a 5+ inv in subsequent turns, until the controlling player says that its wings are extended. The wings can be extended in the opponents movement phase, but it cant turn, no permission to move.

It’s a FW Rule. We’ve know for about two years now that they wrote the FW rules in a lunch break and they are riddled with typos, errors and unintentional mismatches with what 8th’s rules actually are. Trying to play RAW lawyer with their partly-functional rules is silly at best.

Is it really worth expending such energy railing against one guy who’s claiming “RAW SAYS THIS RULE DOES THIS” when it’s entirely possible to just play the more reasonable, logical interpretation when using the model? You won’t convince the intractable internet chap who’s gonna continually tell you that a rule is RAW even when it was written by FW guys who didn’t know the damn rules. You simply can’t play some FW units by RAW alone. Do the sensible thing and play what makes sense. It’s to the detriment of the owning player, so that’s the fairest thing to do.

Trying to claim an interpretation that’s against the screamingly-clear intent is up to you, but hardly seems worth losing friends over.