Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

In the past, my issue with the vyper was always that it was comparable in cost to a war walker but couldn't pack enough firepower. Then battle focus in 6th and 7th actually made the war walker more agile (move shoot move) than the vyper. Now, a shuriken vyper is cheap and durable enough to feel like a reasonable investment for its points, but the heavy weapon options antisynergize with the built-in mobility unless unless you're playing Saim-Hann. Plus, the hornet is probably better at being a skimmer counterpart to the war walker than the vyper is.

Lots of reasonable suggestions have been pitched so far. Let it treat heavy weapons as assault weapons so it can utilize its mobility more. Maybe give it a defensive boost when it advances so that its playstyle is mobile rather than just being a less efficient gun platform. Or just lower its cost so that it compares to the war walker better.

I'd like to toss out one more (probably unpopular) pitch though. What if vypers just became the dedicated heavy weapon platforms for windrider squads? Let people include 1 vyper for every 3 windriders, lower the vypers toughness down to 4, lower its cost to match, and now the vyper becomes your source of heavy weapons other than the scatter laser in a windrider squad. You lose a bit of the uniqueness of having it as its own unit, but you also take it out of competition with the hornet. Either the jetbikes in its unit become ablative wounds for it or vice versa depending on what upgrades you buy. Windriders differentiate themselves from shining spears a bit by being the bike unit with access to heavy weapons instead of just lance-less shining spears.

Thoughts?

That’s a good idea. If the points were cheap enough. Kind of like having a dude with a missile launcher in your 5 man tactical squad

Attack bike style Vypers as part of a Windrider unit would be sweet!

Instead of comparing the Viper to a Serpent, do it to a Land Speeder.
You could be surprised to find the Viper better than the marines counterpart.

Shuriken Cannon is Assault vs Heavy bolter, heavy, not to mention the overpriced Assault Cannon
The base cost is lower.

Don’t see a reason for giving the Vyper all that cheese like invuls, lower cost, and so on

It should have a reason to be used. It’s a pointless unit atm. Really games workshop has done a poor job with creating a game where each unit has a relevant role on the field. Troops are considered a tax instead of a backbone. Everything from terrain and cover to unit classes and their lack of defined roles seems like it was never given consideration. It’s just whoever can produce more shots wins.

The Vyper can join 85% of marine units sadly.

When the opponent puts their AT firepower into silencing such a cheap platform, it provides value better than a WW.

When the opponent puts their AT firepower into bigger threats so you charge it into a LandRaider/Russ/etc to tie it up, it provides value better than a WW.

Bharring wrote:
When the opponent puts their AT firepower into silencing such a cheap platform, it provides value better than a WW.

When the opponent puts their AT firepower into bigger threats so you charge it into a LandRaider/Russ/etc to tie it up, it provides value better than a WW.

Agreed. What the Vyper needs is something that sets it apart from the WW. That used to be speed, but now the WWs move pretty quick and have Battle Focus, that's less relevant,

That why I am adamant that a possible "best" solution is to give Vypers an ability to treat Heavy Weapons as Assault. There is precedent with Dark Eldar Vehicles and it would give Vypers a reason to be taken over WWs.
You take WWs to get the most weapons on a durabl-ish platform, but you take Vypers for the speed/accuracy. And, since Vypers don't actually have Battle Focus, there would still be a risk/reward for Advancing with them.

-

Well, there's speed, there's a 3+, and there's Fly.

Each of those adds areas where it can be better.

I agree that the WW tends to be better, but even a 5pt difference sounds like too much.

I adore both WW and Vypers, and I find them both equal tools in my arsenal.

Vypers I run in a separate SH detachment with dual cannon, the aim to run off singly and annoy the CRAP out of my opponents, harass back line units and occasionally contest things via superior mobility by jumping over obstacles and firing at relatively full firepower.

My WW on the otherhand move up to support the main battleline, offering more direct removal via star cannon, bright lances and so on.

I think they're equal, just WW require less actual thought in application other than 'move/stand and shoot' whilst tanking hits better, the Vyper has an easier time avoiding the problem units and getting right where your opponent doesn't want them.