Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

And melee units for Tzeentch.

What are some ideas for adding more range to Khorne, Slaanesh, and Nurgle?

Khorne has the Skull Cannon. Slaanesh has the Infernal Enrapturess. Nurgle has nothing decent, to my knowledge-longest range is 12", if I recall correctly, on a slightly better (if shorter ranged) bolter.

For Nurgle, I can see giant, festering monsters that spurt bile from weeping sores and vomit a torrent of noxious fumes.
Plaguebearers with hives of toxic insects. (And a Herald for them too.)
Living artillery towers of disease.

Khorne could have Bloodletters that replace their blades with brass blood-spewers.

And not sure what to have for Slaanesh.

Nurgle has Death's Heads, as you note. I don't understand why these aren't Grenades, but it's worth pointing out tbat they're literally on the sprue for Plaguebearers. You could make them a regular option even with the "only what's on the official model" restriction.

I see Nurgle artillery as more like Biovores; a shambling "tree" that fires repulsive "seeds". Or just a smaller Forge World Squig Spitter but with a Plague Toad and Nurglings.

Nurgle armies also technically have the Plague Hulk, but I don't think Forge World even does that model anymore and it's basically just a "marked" Soul Grinder.

Slaanesh logically has sonic weaponry or hypnotic soul-eating effects, like the old fantasy Casket of Souls. The Enrapturess covers the former, but it'd be great to see a whole "Ecstatic Parade" daemonette unit equipped with "special weapons" that are drums, trumpets, guitars, etc. Or just fold them into regular daemonettes as an option. I figured the Epitome would be the latter, but it's just this weird summoning boost.

Slaanesh also has the lashes of torment, but those are more like not-worthless pistols than a proper ranged option.

Bloodletters could just have magic boltguns, honestly. They don't need to be blood-filled supersoakers. The only problem is that it wouldn't work as a fantasy twofer, which is - to my mind - the only reason Daemons can't just go full Doom with cyberdaemons and gundaemons etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As another angle... consider expanding on psychic powers. By a lot. At the moment they're limited to characters and Horrors (and nothing Khorne, because NERDS BAD), but half the daemonic psychic powers are stuff like "you vomit real bad" or "you spew flames at people" .

Just make every daemon unit (or just the champions, I dunno) a psyker who rolls D6+X for psychic powers, give Khorne a "discipline" that's focused on spitting fire and 'roiding out, and maybe give daemons some more interesting psychic powers than "smite, but slightly different" and you've made a real dent in how one-note daemon units can be.

Is that unit of Bloodletters the one that can spit steel-melting torrents of fire, or did you give it the power to run real good, or can it just smite?

First, as to psychic powers. That's not a bad idea, but it's not the direction I'd want to go. They can be denied, there's Psychic Focus, and it's a totally different phase. I'd rather just give shooting.

Second note, on Death's Heads. They're not Grenades because they want Plague Drones to all be able to fire them-besides, they're weaker than most Grenades.

I do like your ideas for shooting, though!

I play Slaanesh Daemons, I've never once wished I had more ranged attacks from them and if there were ranged options available, I wouldn't dilute my CC by taking them.

That's what a R&H Battalion is for.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
I play Slaanesh Daemons, I've never once wished I had more ranged attacks from them and if there were ranged options available, I wouldn't dilute my CC by taking them.

That's what a R&H Battalion is for.

Okay. But for those who DO want ranged options while sticking to Daemons (possibly even single-god Daemons), do you have any suggestions?

No, I don't, 'cause I use R&H for that and trying to make Daemons a ranged army is as puzzling to me as trying to make R&H a melee army.

I'm not saying don't introduce new units, just saying that if they did introduce ranged Daemons they would be irrelevant to me for the same reason I already don't care about the few ranged options that currently exist in the codex; there are already options for ranged attacks that are (IMO) better and fluffier. Soup isn't going away; embrace it.

That said, I am massively against the idea of a Daemonette with a guitar.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
That said, I am massively against the idea of a Daemonette with a guitar.

yeah man that'd be crazy



totally not something straight out of bosch

Well sure, if you just assume that I'm fine with a harp.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Well sure, if you just assume that I'm fine with a harp.

It seems like you are saying that you are massively against the idea of Slaaneshi daemons, creatures defined by excruciating sensory assault, using daemonic instruments - or possibly just string instruments. As a weapon, or possibly just at all?

Now, this seems kind of insane, because sonic weaponry has been part of Slaanesh's schtick for decades, and daemons have used instruments in Warhammer since forever, and the kind of medieval hell-imagery Warhammer draws on is rife with images of musical demons, many of them inspired by Pan and satyrs – who are also a major influence on Slaanesh. So... is that what you're saying? Or am I misunderstanding you?

Cool.

What I actually said was that I'm against the idea of a Daemonette with a guitar, so lets start there and leave your assumptions aside.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Cool.

What I actually said was that I'm against the idea of a Daemonette with a guitar, so lets start there and leave your assumptions aside.

Let's start from the top, because your position is clear as mud to me right now.

ME: "It'd be great to see a whole "Ecstatic Parade" daemonette unit equipped with "special weapons" that are drums, trumpets, guitars, etc"

YOU: "I am massively against the idea of a Daemonette with a guitar."

ME: *posts picture of enrapturess, a daemonette with a string instrument*

YOU: "Well sure, if you just assume that I'm fine with a harp."

Please clarify. Did you mean:

YOU: "Well sure, if you just assume that (the daemonette model would be like the enrapturess) I'm fine with a harp."

YOU: "Well sure, (your argument works) if you just assume that I'm fine with a harp (which I'm not)."

One of these readings says that you are fine with the Enrapturess, but not a guitar. The other says that you are not happy with the Enrapturess, so she has no impact on whether you accept a guitar. Which is accurate?

Personally I'd like to see some ranged slaanesh demons!

The Entrapturess adds some ranged elements to the game through sonic weapons and she uses a weapon that works well in 40K (if a bit hammy) and in AoS.

I'd like to see it taken further though and the way I'd do it is throwing knives. Imagine, if you will, a deamonette, or other human sized and formed critter that strides over the battlefield throwing demonic enchanted blades that slice through reality and puncher into armour and flesh. Flying further than humans could ever throw and hitting with a powerful punch.

Now to add the Slaanesh element of excess - consider that the character doesn't carry a strap of knives, but instead embeds them into their skin like a bandoleer. Blades stored within the flesh of one arm to be thrown by the other. A leader unit that uses both arms to throw.
We already see Slaanesh doing this to hold up skin-stockings on the fiends - so do it with blades!

(plus blades are FAR nicer than GW giving ranged hooked chain whips).


Of course in 40K you can always bring noise marines, but I'd say that marines are different to demons so they don't count for the purposes of providing demonic ranged weapons.

 Overread wrote:
Personally I'd like to see some ranged slaanesh demons!

The Entrapturess adds some ranged elements to the game through sonic weapons and she uses a weapon that works well in 40K (if a bit hammy) and in AoS.

I'd like to see it taken further though and the way I'd do it is throwing knives. Imagine, if you will, a deamonette, or other human sized and formed critter that strides over the battlefield throwing demonic enchanted blades that slice through reality and puncher into armour and flesh. Flying further than humans could ever throw and hitting with a powerful punch.

Now to add the Slaanesh element of excess - consider that the character doesn't carry a strap of knives, but instead embeds them into their skin like a bandoleer. Blades stored within the flesh of one arm to be thrown by the other. A leader unit that uses both arms to throw.
We already see Slaanesh doing this to hold up skin-stockings on the fiends - so do it with blades!

(plus blades are FAR nicer than GW giving ranged hooked chain whips).


Of course in 40K you can always bring noise marines, but I'd say that marines are different to demons so they don't count for the purposes of providing demonic ranged weapons.

That's cool imagery, and reminds me a little of the whistle-arrow weapon from Guardians of the Galaxy, but I'd actually suggest taking it a different direction – make them living daemon-beasts. Play into the "arrogant nobility" look with living, jewelled knives that resemble insects or birds, sent out like hunting hawks. Model them perched on a daemonette's wrist, nestled in its writhing hair, or nursing at its chest. Make them into glittering daemon-wasps with lurid stripes and poisoned blade-stings.

Actually, that reminds me of something from the old Fantasy Daemons book...

The Circle of Avidity forms the outermost boundary of Slaanesh's domain. The temptations within its borders seek to awaken an interloper’s sense of greed. Gold is here, ingots and coins beyond counting. Precious stones are sunk deep into every wall, and gilded sculptures line every path. All who attempt to seize this wealth are doomed. The gemstones hatch daemonic birthlings that burrow beneath the skin and eat their victim from inside to out. To lay but a finger upon Slaanesh’s statuary is to join it, your consciousness rendered immortal, but forever trapped in an immobile golden body.

RevlidRas wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Cool.

What I actually said was that I'm against the idea of a Daemonette with a guitar, so lets start there and leave your assumptions aside.

Let's start from the top, because your position is clear as mud to me right now.

ME: "It'd be great to see a whole "Ecstatic Parade" daemonette unit equipped with "special weapons" that are drums, trumpets, guitars, etc"

YOU: "I am massively against the idea of a Daemonette with a guitar."

ME: *posts picture of enrapturess, a daemonette with a string instrument*

YOU: "Well sure, if you just assume that I'm fine with a harp."

Please clarify. Did you mean:

YOU: "Well sure, if you just assume that (the daemonette model would be like the enrapturess) I'm fine with a harp."

YOU: "Well sure, (your argument works) if you just assume that I'm fine with a harp (which I'm not)."

One of these readings says that you are fine with the Enrapturess, but not a guitar. The other says that you are not happy with the Enrapturess, so she has no impact on whether you accept a guitar. Which is accurate?

Neither of the above. I meant what I said.

I'm not a fan of the Enrapturess mini - or her silly name - but I'm also not at all opposed to the idea of a Daemonette with a harp, I just dislike the execution in this instance. The fact that a mini exists with a harp - and your presupposed opinion about my opinion on it - is neither here nor there, 'cause a harp is not a guitar.

I am massively opposed to a Daemonette with a guitar. Not a harp, not a daemonic instrument, not a string instrument, not a drum and not a trumpet (which they already have). With a guitar. Which is why I said that.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do, however, really like the idea of throwing grown projectiles at your enemy. There's a bit in, IIRC, John Dies at the End where they meet a monster who starts throwing it's ribs at them.

It was neat.

 JNAProductions wrote:
First, as to psychic powers. That's not a bad idea, but it's not the direction I'd want to go. They can be denied, there's Psychic Focus, and it's a totally different phase. I'd rather just give shooting.

Hm, fair, but Tzeentch already uses the Psychic phase as a shooting-supplement with the (increasingly pathetic) Horror Smite, and most psychic powers this edition are just "magic gun" anyway. I'd want proper ranged options too, but psychic powers (with a Brotherhood-esque rule) could offer a real stopgap for an army with 3 (or even 4) disciplines.

We're not going to get new plastic daemon troops in my lifetime, but it's kind of sad how uncustomizable the core troops are. Bloodletters don't even get a choice between swords and axes or anything. They look great, but they also look just as stamped-out-of-a-mould as Necron Warriors, which is... pretty bad.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

Neither of the above. I meant what I said.

I'm not a fan of the Enrapturess mini - or her silly name - but I'm also not at all opposed to the idea of a Daemonette with a harp, I just dislike the execution in this instance. The fact that a mini exists with a harp - and your presupposed opinion about my opinion on it - is neither here nor there, 'cause a harp is not a guitar.

Sure, whatever.

I didn't have any opinion about your opinion, because I didn't know what it was. That's why both my responses to you have been me asking you what it was, because apparently you prefer to communicate like a mystical bridgekeeper who will only let you pass if you answer him these riddles three.

Yes, I can see how "I am massively against a Daemonette with a guitar" could be ambiguous.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Yes, I can see how "I am massively against a Daemonette with a guitar" could be ambiguous.

As a neutral third party, I see where RevildRas is coming from. Being specifically anti-guitar is a weirdly specific enough thing within the context of the conversation that it seemed like you might be against musical instruments as wargear entirely. Internet voice and all that.


Some random ranged unit thoughts:
Slaanesh:
How about some slaaneshi archers? I'm picturing winged daemonette cherubs or sagitarius-inspired fiend or seeker variants with chitinous bows fused into their arms. Arrows with glass and crystaline arrow heads that shatter into clouds of mind-warping perfumes. Shafts that home in on the fear and desire of those they target. Mechanically, just giving slaanesh something to do in the shooting phase would be a raw offense booster, but it seems appropriate to let Slaanesh's arrows deliver debuffing effects that complement the rest of your army. Maybe the perfume arrows have a chance of preventing enemy units from falling back (ode de fiend). Maybe the heart-seeker arrows can snipe psykers or characters in general thus allowing Slaaneshi hosts to elegantly cut the leadership from the enemy ranks as the daemonettes pounce.

Nurgle:
Maybe a bad idea, but I kind of like the idea of representing the fungusy garden aspect of Nurgle. Maybe a nurgly fortification plant that shoots spore mine esque shots. If they fail to hit, you can instead plop down a "rot bloom" that is very easy to kill but which can fire its own short-ranged version of the initial attack in subsequent turns.

Khorne:
Honestly, I really liked the skull cannon as an off-brand assault grenade granter in previous editions. Not sure if there's still an element of that in its current rules. I'm not sure how I feel about the concept of a khornate unit whose job is to kill things from far away. The skull cannon is neat because it (used to) help your melee stuff get into melee. The damage it did in its own right was nice, but could kind of be seen as a nice bonus on top of the charge buff it provided.

Tzeentch:
I mean, Tzeentch kind of already shoots and "shoots" (in the psychic phase) just fine. For melee, making screamers better against vehicles again by buffing their bites might be nice. I also like the idea of sword made of living ink (invoking the scribe aspect of Tzeentch) whose blade glows with the true names of their targets. Don't really have a mechanical niche for that one. Just think it's cool. Maybe give them wings and make them melee character assassins? Swooping in to kill the characters hiding behind the smite-absorbing screens of the enemy?

Or, and this probably steps on Nurgle's toes too much, how about a wave of ever-morphing shoggothy flesh that regains wounds and spawns new bases as it consumes enemies in melee?

I hate to say it, but what is wrong with Marked Soulgrinders?

 carldooley wrote:
I hate to say it, but what is wrong with Marked Soulgrinders?

Nothing, but it's just one unit. And a pretty expensive one, with only two guns.

It's also not hugely interesting; just a 'roiding Defiler. Though given its existence as a Forge Of Souls representative it's a little odd that Daemons don't get the Forge/Maulerfiends or Helldrakes.

It's also a daemon engine. So yeah that bs 4+ is going to be great, especially on a defiler body......
Not to mention that it is also like all daemonengines on the expensive side of things.

RevlidRas wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
I hate to say it, but what is wrong with Marked Soulgrinders?

Nothing, but it's just one unit. And a pretty expensive one, with only two guns.

It's also not hugely interesting; just a 'roiding Defiler. Though given its existence as a Forge Of Souls representative it's a little odd that Daemons don't get the Forge/Maulerfiends or Helldrakes.

Then play Guard if you want guns, or my beloved Tau. If I wanted to be good at other things, I'd play a different army. Play to your army's strengths and stop wishli.... nevermind.

Slaanesh - Yes I adore the idea of sonic weaponry which are also either instruments or other implements of art. Very cool!

Nurgle - Give units such as beasts, Nurgle Spawn/ beasts and possibly heralds an option to vomit 7" (heh) bile like a flamer which rerolls to wound (I think Deathguard have something similar). Again Death heads as a purchasable upgrade for Plague Bearers would also be a good start.

Khorne - I would ADORE a 40mm khorne daemon which HURLES AXES and other such things as mobile Anti infantry support which can mix things up in close combat. Something like assault x (equal to number of attacks) str user ap -1 range 18" each successful hit roll scores D3 wound rolls.

Tzeentch - They don't need anything new to be honest, just make screamers good and they would have a adequate answer to close combat.

Also I'd rework the psychic power tables for the gods aswell, they're showing they were out early in 8th. Maybe add a generic table all Daemons can draw from to represent certain broad types of spells and gives more room for really god specific flavourful and fitting spells. Hell if people think that's a somewhat decent idea I may write up my proposed changes in a new thread so as to not derail this one.

 carldooley wrote:

RevlidRas wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
I hate to say it, but what is wrong with Marked Soulgrinders?

Nothing, but it's just one unit. And a pretty expensive one, with only two guns.

It's also not hugely interesting; just a 'roiding Defiler. Though given its existence as a Forge Of Souls representative it's a little odd that Daemons don't get the Forge/Maulerfiends or Helldrakes.

Then play Guard if you want guns, or my beloved Tau. If I wanted to be good at other things, I'd play a different army. Play to your army's strengths and stop wishli.... nevermind.

Personally, I would like to be able to do something in an entire phase of the game that has no good reason to exclude my army. I don't think that's a good reason to go play Guard. You'll note that both Orks and Tyranids, classically assault armies, have potent ranged support options and even builds. Lack of variety has been an ironic and consistent complaint about Daemons since they got their first codex.

RevlidRas wrote:

 carldooley wrote:

RevlidRas wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
I hate to say it, but what is wrong with Marked Soulgrinders?

Nothing, but it's just one unit. And a pretty expensive one, with only two guns.

It's also not hugely interesting; just a 'roiding Defiler. Though given its existence as a Forge Of Souls representative it's a little odd that Daemons don't get the Forge/Maulerfiends or Helldrakes.

Then play Guard if you want guns, or my beloved Tau. If I wanted to be good at other things, I'd play a different army. Play to your army's strengths and stop wishli.... nevermind.

Personally, I would like to be able to do something in an entire phase of the game that has no good reason to exclude my army. I don't think that's a good reason to go play Guard. You'll note that both Orks and Tyranids, classically assault armies, have potent ranged support options and even builds. Lack of variety has been an ironic and consistent complaint about Daemons since they got their first codex.

isn't that like the same but opposite scenario for Tau?

Ah Irony.

Not Online!!! wrote:
isn't that like the same but opposite scenario for Tau?

Ah Irony.

No, T'au will take more mecha with giant guns and they'll learn to like it.

More seriously, it's all about expanding and maintaining the character of the army – which is part of why this thread is focused on brainstorming. Gunline Daemons aren't any more appropriate than choppy T'au – but Daemons could certainly do with some mid-ranged support and characterful artillery, while I don't think anyone would object to T'au getting proper Kroot allies or Tarellian mercenaries as close-range counterattackers.

RevlidRas wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
isn't that like the same but opposite scenario for Tau?

Ah Irony.

No, T'au will take more mecha with giant guns and they'll learn to like it.

More seriously, it's all about expanding and maintaining the character of the army – which is part of why this thread is focused on brainstorming. Gunline Daemons aren't any more appropriate than choppy T'au – but Daemons could certainly do with some mid-ranged support and characterful artillery, while I don't think anyone would object to T'au getting proper Kroot allies or Tarellian mercenaries as close-range counterattackers.

The reason is they are stuck in the same situation soulgrinders are comparable to kroot.

Overall though a bunch of axetrhwoing bloodletters would be quite nice.

Soul Grinders don't know what they're for, is my biggest problem with them.

Are they a melee unit? Ranged? GW says 'yes'. If you could dedicate them to one or the other they'd be better.

Not Online!!! wrote:
The reason is they are stuck in the same situation soulgrinders are comparable to kroot.

Yeah. T'au get Carnivores and Hounds as the only close combat units in their entire army, so even if they were good they would lack the support they need to be genuinely effective. And given that Kroot are basically Kabalite Warriors with -1BS, +1S, -1Ld, -1Sv, no special weapons, and no Power From Pain, for one point less, it's a bit much to expect them to pull off close combat. Or anything, really.

Similarly, when a single massive T7 vehicle is your only real source of ranged firepower – and even that's only got an autocannon and a battle cannon – the Soul Grinder is always going to be left out in the cold.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Soul Grinders don't know what they're for, is my biggest problem with them.

Are they a melee unit? Ranged? GW says 'yes'. If you could dedicate them to one or the other they'd be better.

As much as I champion specialization, I'm fine with Daemon Engines having "tanks, but they also eat people" as a consistent mechanical gimmick. Them being a platypus makes sense, when you think about it. The real problem is that the rules don't support that dual role – they either need a discount to represent that they're either doing one or the other, but almost never both at once, or they need rules that allow them to do both at once. For example, the Soul Grinder has 10 S8, AP-2, Dd3 attacks. That's nothing to sniff at, even with WS4+! But while it's using those attacks, it can't use its battle cannon/autocannon, which you're also paying for. And while you're moving in range to use those attacks, you suffer a penalty on the aforementioned battle cannon/autocannon, because they're both Heavy.

You could make those two parts work together much better just by making its ranged weapons into Assault weapons and giving it the following ability:

Centauroid Abomination: This model can make fire any of its weapons while it is within 1" of the enemy, regardless of the weapon’s type. If it does so, it can target enemy units within 1", even if friendly units are within 1" of these units.

That's much closer to a unit that can live up to the whole "shooty but also stabby" gimmick. Then hey, while we're on the topic, let it trade the autocannon for a heavy flamer for a "melee focused" Grinder, trade its sword for another autocannon for a "range focused" Grinder, and for the love of god make the sword useful because I have no idea why anyone would take it right now.

Want to make grinders remotely useful with a small fix?

Make it's weapons assault. I always run 2 cause I adore the model but sweet god they're bad currently.

As much as I champion specialization, I'm fine with Daemon Engines having "tanks, but they also eat people" as a consistent mechanical gimmick. Them being a platypus makes sense, when you think about it. The real problem is that the rules don't support that dual role – they either need a discount to represent that they're either doing one or the other, but almost never both at once, or they need rules that allow them to do both at once. For example, the Soul Grinder has 10 S8, AP-2, Dd3 attacks. That's nothing to sniff at, even with WS4+! But while it's using those attacks, it can't use its battle cannon/autocannon, which you're also paying for. And while you're moving in range to use those attacks, you suffer a penalty on the aforementioned battle cannon/autocannon, because they're both Heavy.

and consequently this design is also why daemon engines are most of the time to expensive to work because versatility is too good.