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I remember reading that the Alpha Legion sometimes implant their operatives with some (but not all) Marine organs. This means you could get incomplete Marines running around on the Chaos side (unless you believe the Alphas really are super-sneaky loyalists).

Can't remember off the top of my head where I read that but it might have been the Alpha Legion Index Astartes entry from 3rd/4th edition.

EDIT - I was right.

The question then arises; how does the Alpha Legion coordinate all its activities and communicate with these disparate cells? Inquisitor Kravin is not the only one to have claimed that the Alpha Legion achieves this through the use of so-called 'operatives'. These figures are apparently human, but may have had limited Space Marine psycho-hypnotic indoctrination to make them utterly loyal to the legion and possibly even the implantation of some of the Adeptus Astartes organs. According to the claim, these operatives form the link between the cultist cells, travelling about with impunity where a Space Marine would quickly draw attention, setting up new groups, guiding their agendas and bringing them instructions. During protracted campaigns, they may be used to pose as soldiers, gathering intelligence of sabotaging the enemy army. The existence of these operatives has not been conclusively proved, but few other explanations have been put forward.

That's a really interesting bit. Thanks for the contribution!

The thought then has to be:- What organs could feasibly be implanted in such a way as to not draw attention, but still be viable as single implants? You'd want to avoid any of the large obvious ones (growth enhancements, skin colour, etc), and the regular human torso doesn't really room for piles of extra organs to be stuffed in like you would a regular Marine.

Since it mentions psycho-hypnotic indoctrination, the most likely implants would be the Catalepsean node to enable sleep control, the Occulobe for night vision, Lyman's ear (for hearing enhancement), the Neuroglottis (to protect against poison and gas), and Betcher's Gland (for a surprise acid attack and escape capabilities). Such things would be excellent enhancements for a stealth operative/covert infiltrator; especially one orchestrating chaos cults and spy networks. You wouldn't be able to spot them just by looking though.

 Ketara wrote:
That's a really interesting bit. Thanks for the contribution!

The thought then has to be:- What organs could feasibly be implanted in such a way as to not draw attention, but still be viable as single implants? You'd want to avoid any of the large obvious ones (growth enhancements, skin colour, etc), and the regular human torso doesn't really room for piles of extra organs to be stuffed in like you would a regular Marine.

Since it mentions psycho-hypnotic indoctrination, the most likely implants would be the Catalepsean node to enable sleep control, the Occulobe for night vision, Lyman's ear (for hearing enhancement), the Neuroglottis (to protect against poison and gas), and Betcher's Gland (for a surprise acid attack and escape capabilities). Such things would be excellent enhancements for a stealth operative/covert infiltrator; especially one orchestrating chaos cults and spy networks. You wouldn't be able to spot them just by looking though.

Now this makes sense altough growth inherently doesn't need to be ruled out.
It wouldn't surprise me if they gave them for that a diluted form. But say from 1.80 m to 2.0 or even 2.10m would give you still a lot of room to "play" with.

It also makes me wish for a proper infiltration unit for AL.

 Ketara wrote:
That's a really interesting bit. Thanks for the contribution!

The thought then has to be:- What organs could feasibly be implanted in such a way as to not draw attention, but still be viable as single implants? You'd want to avoid any of the large obvious ones (growth enhancements, skin colour, etc), and the regular human torso doesn't really room for piles of extra organs to be stuffed in like you would a regular Marine.

Since it mentions psycho-hypnotic indoctrination, the most likely implants would be the Catalepsean node to enable sleep control, the Occulobe for night vision, Lyman's ear (for hearing enhancement), the Neuroglottis (to protect against poison and gas), and Betcher's Gland (for a surprise acid attack and escape capabilities). Such things would be excellent enhancements for a stealth operative/covert infiltrator; especially one orchestrating chaos cults and spy networks. You wouldn't be able to spot them just by looking though.

This surely means that lots of "normal" humans could have upgrades. I seem to remember "gene bulked" or "genhanced" being in a lot of books, especially when talking about servitors, or say in the Outcast Dead or Legion books.

I can't remember which chapter... its either the Iron Hands or one of their successors that uses incomplete marines to fill out tank crews.

I thought they were just "better" Chapter Serfs?

Do Rogue Marines exist? Yes. Are there some out that don't turn to chaos? Yes. While I don't want to ruin anything, you can look at Soul Drinkers as one or the other or both.

Regardless of their intentions, if they do go rogue, the Inquisition will label them as traitors and hunt them the rest of their lives. Now will the Inquisition catch up with them? That's tough to say. That would be up to the Inquisition itself as well as the "Witch Hunter" branch of the Inquisition known as the "Adepta Sororitas" or "Sisters of Battle."

SG


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Karhedron wrote:
I remember reading that the Alpha Legion sometimes implant their operatives with some (but not all) Marine organs

Alpha Legion does whatever they have to do to accomplish their goal whatever that goal may be. Stealth, Infiltration, using non-chapter or non-Astartes to accomplish their goals are what the Alpha Legion are all about. And, no one really knows of they truly are a Traitor or Loyalist legion. I've read some blurbs that say they may be one of the most Loyal legions. So, again, yes... Rogue marines can and do exist. They will probably have to spend the vast majority of their lives in hiding, on the run, or in a system the Empire doesn't visit much, though.

SG

There's lots of "incomplete marines" around, they are usually Chapter Serfs. Yes, they do menial work but it could be other important tasks like flying a Thunderhawk or captaining a a Chapter Fleet vessel or even driving a Rhino. After all those are usually not done by Marines but they're still important enough that you would like to entrust it to a normal human. Losing a Thunderhawk or Starship could be a cost you a whole company of Marines after all.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
There's lots of "incomplete marines" around, they are usually Chapter Serfs. Yes, they do menial work but it could be other important tasks like flying a Thunderhawk or captaining a a Chapter Fleet vessel or even driving a Rhino. After all those are usually not done by Marines but they're still important enough that you would like to entrust it to a normal human. Losing a Thunderhawk or Starship could be a cost you a whole company of Marines after all.

Just to add to this... think about how many Rhinos, Land Raiders, Predators etc that a Marine chapter has... They could easily have 10 Rhinos or Rhino Chassis per company, and with 10 companies, that's 100 vehicles that each have a two person crew. When a marine Chapter is only allowed to have 1000 space marines, setting aside 200 Space Marines just to crew all the Chapter's rhinos would eat into their limited ranks pretty quickly even before we start thinking about other vehicles in their armory. Then you think about the logistics of getting a Chapter planetside... yes they could use drop pods, but many times its Thunderhawks and Thunderhawk Transporters supported by Storm Ravens and Storm Talons... Even if that's only 10 pilots/crew per company that's another 100 marines.

If we consider that only ~1% of Neophytes are inducted as Space Marines that means for every full chapter there are 99,000 candidates... while most won't survive it leaves a significant number of "potential" auxiliaries to supplement the recovering marines on vehicle duty.

Realistically Space Marines with a firm 1000 marine limit would want to keep around as large corp of auxiliaries and neophytes possible they would want to be able to fudge their numbers as much possible. Take Black Templars for example, they have a suspected fighting strength of over 6000... does that include the Neophytes that fight along side the fully indoctrinated marines? -Maybe its largely their inclusions that pushes their ranks that high, which would give us a sense of how many auxiliaries other Chapters have but don't use in a direct fighting capacity.

 aka_mythos wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
There's lots of "incomplete marines" around, they are usually Chapter Serfs. Yes, they do menial work but it could be other important tasks like flying a Thunderhawk or captaining a a Chapter Fleet vessel or even driving a Rhino. After all those are usually not done by Marines but they're still important enough that you would like to entrust it to a normal human. Losing a Thunderhawk or Starship could be a cost you a whole company of Marines after all.

Just to add to this... think about how many Rhinos, Land Raiders, Predators etc that a Marine chapter has... They could easily have 10 Rhinos or Rhino Chassis per company, and with 10 companies, that's 100 vehicles that each have a two person crew. When a marine Chapter is only allowed to have 1000 space marines, setting aside 200 Space Marines just to crew all the Chapter's rhinos would eat into their limited ranks pretty quickly even before we start thinking about other vehicles in their armory. Then you think about the logistics of getting a Chapter planetside... yes they could use drop pods, but many times its Thunderhawks and Thunderhawk Transporters supported by Storm Ravens and Storm Talons... Even if that's only 10 pilots/crew per company that's another 100 marines.

If we consider that only ~1% of Neophytes are inducted as Space Marines that means for every full chapter there are 99,000 candidates... while most won't survive it leaves a significant number of "potential" auxiliaries to supplement the recovering marines on vehicle duty.

Realistically Space Marines with a firm 1000 marine limit would want to keep around as large corp of auxiliaries and neophytes possible they would want to be able to fudge their numbers as much possible. Take Black Templars for example, they have a suspected fighting strength of over 6000... does that include the Neophytes that fight along side the fully indoctrinated marines? -Maybe its largely their inclusions that pushes their ranks that high, which would give us a sense of how many auxiliaries other Chapters have but don't use in a direct fighting capacity.

Exactly. Fancy vehicles like Land Raiders are usually piloted by a tech marine, but ya, most Chapter have 100 Rhinos ready to go. I think even the majority of security on Chapter Fleets (Battle Barges are massive) are shotgun toting serfs. Marines are great at anti-boarding action but these guys help out too and there's still a lot of normal everyday security stuff that needs to be taken care of in these flying cities. Serf is an still honoured position in a Chapter. Marines are like Pro Athletes and all the Serfs are like the support staff for them. Not stars, but essential nonetheless.

I recall once upon a time there were rules for these guys in a White Dwarf via the Regiment Doctrine system. While not Space Marines they were still pretty badass. They're basically half Space Marine.

it'd be intreasting to see rules for chapter serfs.

I think if you started writing rules for these different groups of auxiliaries you'd have to be mores specific.

What level of technology would they be equipped with, if there were rules for them? Are they just like supplemental PDF forces, or are they as good as Guardsmen, or are they more at the level of Scions?

Building up these forces is partially what the Astral Claws did when they went renegade during the Badab War, their auxiliaries were always PDF level troops.

And when the Fenris was attacked the auxiliaries were more like standard guard.

If you're writing rules for proto-marine auxiliaries then you have something more akin to scouts or neophytes.

Space marines have minds of their own. They arent servitors.
Just because they are indoctrinated to all hate aliens or whatever doesnt mean all of them will hold the same level of hatred. Just because all they know is war doesnt mean one cant like Lucky Charms and another like Fruit Loops.

Watch a U.S Marine stand on guard with perfect posture, unmoving and straight faced. Thats like the "face" or public image of a marine but once hes back with his boys hes just another guy again.

Same thing with Space Marines (just not to the same degree.) We see or read about them as Space Marines and Angels of Death. Behind closed doors though, theyre just... Astartes.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
There's lots of "incomplete marines" around, they are usually Chapter Serfs. Yes, they do menial work but it could be other important tasks like flying a Thunderhawk or captaining a a Chapter Fleet vessel or even driving a Rhino. After all those are usually not done by Marines but they're still important enough that you would like to entrust it to a normal human. Losing a Thunderhawk or Starship could be a cost you a whole company of Marines after all.

Just to add to this... think about how many Rhinos, Land Raiders, Predators etc that a Marine chapter has... They could easily have 10 Rhinos or Rhino Chassis per company, and with 10 companies, that's 100 vehicles that each have a two person crew. When a marine Chapter is only allowed to have 1000 space marines, setting aside 200 Space Marines just to crew all the Chapter's rhinos would eat into their limited ranks pretty quickly even before we start thinking about other vehicles in their armory. Then you think about the logistics of getting a Chapter planetside... yes they could use drop pods, but many times its Thunderhawks and Thunderhawk Transporters supported by Storm Ravens and Storm Talons... Even if that's only 10 pilots/crew per company that's another 100 marines.

If we consider that only ~1% of Neophytes are inducted as Space Marines that means for every full chapter there are 99,000 candidates... while most won't survive it leaves a significant number of "potential" auxiliaries to supplement the recovering marines on vehicle duty.

Realistically Space Marines with a firm 1000 marine limit would want to keep around as large corp of auxiliaries and neophytes possible they would want to be able to fudge their numbers as much possible. Take Black Templars for example, they have a suspected fighting strength of over 6000... does that include the Neophytes that fight along side the fully indoctrinated marines? -Maybe its largely their inclusions that pushes their ranks that high, which would give us a sense of how many auxiliaries other Chapters have but don't use in a direct fighting capacity.

Exactly. Fancy vehicles like Land Raiders are usually piloted by a tech marine, but ya, most Chapter have 100 Rhinos ready to go. I think even the majority of security on Chapter Fleets (Battle Barges are massive) are shotgun toting serfs. Marines are great at anti-boarding action but these guys help out too and there's still a lot of normal everyday security stuff that needs to be taken care of in these flying cities. Serf is an still honoured position in a Chapter. Marines are like Pro Athletes and all the Serfs are like the support staff for them. Not stars, but essential nonetheless.

I recall once upon a time there were rules for these guys in a White Dwarf via the Regiment Doctrine system. While not Space Marines they were still pretty badass. They're basically half Space Marine.

I just wanted to point out that Serfs are treated differentlt depending on the Chapter. Ultramarines respect their serfs while Imperial Fists and Dark Angels basically just ignore them or dont care about them while some like the Space Sharks basically treat them like slaves. At the worst, to Marines Malevolent chapter sefs basically are slaves. It all depends on who they work for

Blood Claws.
They have the black carapace within a few months but they aren’t considered complete for another 50-200 years when their hair turns grey, their eyes turn yellow and their teeth grow long...but not long enough that it takes the rest of their head with it, funny how they can go overripe at any point in their ripening process.
Failure means death or servitorhood, most Wolves don’t really do agriculture or hygiene (Lukas apparently does viticulture/mazer depending on what mjod is made out of) so I’d hazard the guess that becoming a serf means joining a hunting party for the feast tables or the PDF.

123ply wrote:
Space marines have minds of their own. They arent servitors.
Just because they are indoctrinated to all hate aliens or whatever doesnt mean all of them will hold the same level of hatred. Just because all they know is war doesnt mean one cant like Lucky Charms and another like Fruit Loops.

Watch a U.S Marine stand on guard with perfect posture, unmoving and straight faced. Thats like the "face" or public image of a marine but once hes back with his boys hes just another guy again.

Same thing with Space Marines (just not to the same degree.) We see or read about them as Space Marines and Angels of Death. Behind closed doors though, theyre just... Astartes.

except that space Marine chapters are, by design pretty isolated. with their own cult etc. the people space marines interact with on a daily basis would be brothers in the chapter etc. You sue the US Marine comparison, but at the end of the day (or duty rotation) memebrs of the US armed forces go home to their family. even well in service they speak to their family as much as is reasonably possiable. Space Marines don't have that, when you join the local chapter you are cut off from all ties to your previous lfie and family. Joining the Space Marines is not joining the armed forces.. it's joining a cult.

BrianDavion wrote:

123ply wrote:
Space marines have minds of their own. They arent servitors.
Just because they are indoctrinated to all hate aliens or whatever doesnt mean all of them will hold the same level of hatred. Just because all they know is war doesnt mean one cant like Lucky Charms and another like Fruit Loops.

Watch a U.S Marine stand on guard with perfect posture, unmoving and straight faced. Thats like the "face" or public image of a marine but once hes back with his boys hes just another guy again.

Same thing with Space Marines (just not to the same degree.) We see or read about them as Space Marines and Angels of Death. Behind closed doors though, theyre just... Astartes.

except that space Marine chapters are, by design pretty isolated. with their own cult etc. the people space marines interact with on a daily basis would be brothers in the chapter etc. You sue the US Marine comparison, but at the end of the day (or duty rotation) memebrs of the US armed forces go home to their family. even well in service they speak to their family as much as is reasonably possiable. Space Marines don't have that, when you join the local chapter you are cut off from all ties to your previous lfie and family. Joining the Space Marines is not joining the armed forces.. it's joining a cult.

Depends on the Chapter. Ultramarines & Salamanders both 'live' amongst their local population and visit their 'families', and the Iron Hands hold recruiting events and mingle with their population then (in the new fluff, anyway).