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In an effort to make 40k more strategic and fun I have made some basic changes that will mean more balanced army lists, more common sense with units and their performance on the table, and more fun. I don’t have the time to go after every single codex and change every single detail, but YOU can take these basic concepts and adapt them to your own home rules/codex to make thing work for you. Post your own ideas for

The issues addressed. Cover saves, making every type of unit useful instead of half the codex being pointless, having weapons interact in logical ways with different targets, rewarding strategic thinking and maneuver, and making the battlefield come alive. A player should feel like he is in command of an army, and every order he gives is vital to achieving victory – NOT that your omgwtfbbq CP, stratagem, psychic power, HQ aura, cheese is so over powered you can’t lose. 40K is supposed to be a strategy war game, but it has turned into a cheesefest. Its miserable and I hate it. So heres the changes.

Unit classes – All units can fall into these categories based on their toughness value
Light Infantry (T3)
Heavy Infantry (T4/5)
Light Armor (T6/T7)
Heavy Armor (T8/T9)
Titanic (Titans)

Weapon classes – Each one has a bonus for its intended purpose
Anti-Personnel – Intended for killing Light and Heavy Infantry (S3/4/5)
Anti-Material – Intended for Killing Light Armor (S6/7)
Anti-Tank – Intended for Killing Heavy Armor (S8/9)
Titan-Killer – Intended for Killing Titanic units (S10+)
Ordnance/Artillery/Indirect Fire – Intended for killing Infantry in Cover
Special Weapons – Intended for specialized threats and situations

Every class of unit has qualities that allow it to function effectively in certain battlefield environments. Infantry are cheap and survivable if they make it to cover. Heavy infantry is more expensive but is highly effective at clearing light infantry units out. Walkers and heavy infantry are excellent at killing another heavy infantry. Ordnance weapons can negate the cover offered by ruins and buildings and kills infantry of all kinds. But ordnance is easily destroyed by tanks. Terrain becomes important. Unit choice and balance becomes important. Positioning and strategy becomes much more important. It isn’t a matter of just rolling a hundred dice and having good luck.

Light infantry is mobile ground troops that is intended to hold territory. Their protection is from being able to take cover inside buildings or the environment. They are very effective and slowing down armored units by hiding in buildings and utilizing anti tank rockets, melta guns, or mortars.
-2 to hit while in cover (cover saves do not stack with other saves)
-1 to hit from Medium weapons
-2 to hit from heavy weapons
+1 to hit walkers, vehicles

Heavy infantry - T4 and T5 (space marine power armor) save on D6. Terminator and equivalent on D8
Heavy infantry are shock troops that can survive the extreme dangers of close quarters fighting with other infantry units. Their armor easily protects against most man portable type weapons and their firepower makes quick work of light infantry
+1 save against anti-personnel weapons
-1 to hit while in cover
-1 to hit from heavy weapons
+1 to hit vehicles

Light armor / Open topped T6 – Vypers, Land Speeders, War Walkers
+1 to hit from light infantry
+1 to save from anti-personnel weapons
-1 to hit from Heavy weapons

Heavy Armor – Predators, Fire Prism etc

Artillery/Ordnance- these weapons are designed to pummel buildings and destroy troop formations. They ignore cover saves for infantry. (Whirl winds, night spinner, earth shaker artillery)

Air defenses - Air defense units may choose to not shoot during their turn and go into overwatch. Any enemy air craft entering their firing range during the opponent’s movement phase may then be fired upon on that opponents turn.

Walkers - a class of walking machines designed to operate in difficult terrain such as hills and debris filled ruins. Ignores movement penalties for difficult terrain that wheeled or tracked vehicles suffer. Excellent for supporting infantry in rough terrain.

Special weapons - These weapons are intended to give infantry the capability to deal with special threats or situations. They have comparable firepower to heavy weapons with no negative modifier to hit light or heavy infantry, making them go to weapons for kill anything an infantry needs to kill at closer ranges.

Flamer - flaming napalm spray for quickly clearing building and bunkers or enemy troops or hosing down hordes of infantry in the open. Ineffective against enclosed targets like terminators or tanks
Range – Template – Type – Special Purpose Weapon – S5 AP0 D1
Ignores cover saves.
Wounds Light Infantry on 2+
When used against bunkers or enclosed rooms and spaces, all enemy units are auto-hit

Meltagun - high energy weapon intended to melt through the heaviest armor. This gives infantry the ability to destroy heavily armored targets like walkers and tanks at close city fighting ranges (keeps same profile) Range 12” Type – Special Purpose Rifle - S8 AP-4 D- 3+D3



Plasma rifle - an intermediate range energy weapon that gives infantry some standoff distance to deal with heavy infantry and light armor threats.
Range 24” Type Special Purpose Rifle – S7 AP-3 D2 Rapid Fire (on Rapid Fire if you roll 1, suffer wound)

EXAMPLE PROFILES FOR UNITS / WEAPONS show intended purposes by their bonuses

Primaris Space marine example profile
M8 BS3+ WS3+ S4 T4 W2 A2 SV 3+
Class - Heavy Infantry
+1 save against light infantry weapons
-1 to hit while in cover
-1 to hit from heavy weapons
+1 to hit vehicles

Weapon – Bolter and Combat Knife
Range 24” Type Heavy Rifle S4 AP-1 D3 Damage
Rapid Fire (all infantry rifles have rapid fire except special or heavy weapons)
Options. Take armor piercing ammo for 3 points per model for -2 AP
Special rule -mass reactive warhead - any target suffering an unsaved wound suffers D3 damage

Combat knife
Type - edged weapon
S4
Wounds on 2+ against light infantry

Space Marine Terminator
Class - Heavy Infantry
M8 BS2+ WS2+ S5 T5 W3 A2 SV2+ (D8)
+1 to hit Heavy Armor
-1 to hit while in cover
-1 to hit from heavy weapons
+1 to hit vehicles

Weapons Storm Bolter & Power Fist
Range 24” Type Anti Personnel S4 AP-1 D3 Damage
Rapid Fire (all infantry rifles have rapid fire except special or heavy weapons)
Options. Take armor piercing ammo for 3 points per model. -2AP version.
Special rule -mass reactive warhead- any target suffering an unsaved wound takes D3 damage

Power fist - a energized combat gauntlet worn by terminator units to smash through bulkheads and tanks.
S10 -4 AP 3+D3 damage
Special rule - Make a hole. Terminators May move though buildings as if they were not there, smashing through walls with ease and then using storm bolters and power fists to kill everyone inside

Assault cannon
Firing a torrent of small light armor piercing ammunition, the assault cannon is intended to clear large numbers of lightly armored troops.
Type – Anti Personnel (6) Range 24 S4 AP-1 D1
Rapid fire

Flamer - flaming napalm spray for quickly clearing building and bunkers or enemy troops or hosing down hordes of infantry in the open. Ineffective against enclosed targets like terminators or tanks
Range – Template – Type – Special Purpose Weapon – S5 AP0 D1
Ignores cover saves.
Wounds Light Infantry on 2+
When used against bunkers or enclosed rooms and spaces, all enemy units are auto-hit

Meltagun - high energy weapon intended to melt through the heaviest armor. This gives infantry the ability to destroy heavily armored targets like walkers and tanks at close city fighting ranges (keeps same profile) Range 12” Type – Special Purpose Rifle - S8 AP-4 D- 3+D3



Plasma rifle - an intermediate range energy weapon that gives infantry some standoff distance to deal with heavy infantry and light armor threats.
Range 24” Type Special Purpose Rifle – S7 AP-3 D2 Rapid Fire (on Rapid Fire if you roll 1, suffer wound)


Imperial guardsman
His best offense is sheer numbers. His best defense is excellent use of cover and being the smallest and toughest thing to hit on the battlefield.
Type Light Infantry
M8 WS 4+ BS4+ S3 T3 A1 SV5+
+2 cover save when in ruins, buildings, rocks
-1 to hit from Medium weapons
-2 to hit from heavy weapons
+1 to hit vehicles

Lasgun
Range 24. S3 AP0 D1
Rapid fire
Upgrade options.
Hot-shot power cell and barrel upgrade
-1 AP for 2points per model. The Hot-Shot weapons package allows the standard lasgun to have the punch needed to pierce heavy infantry armor with some luck and volume of fire.

Eldar Vyper
Class – Light Armor Fast Attack Vehicle
M16” WS- BS3+ S5 T6 W5 SV3+
+1 save to anti-personnel weapons
-1 to hit if moved full range
Anti Grav gyro-stabilizer – No Penalty to shoot heavy weapons after moving
Bright Lance – Anti Heavy Armor – Range 36” S8 AP -4 D3+D3
-2 to hit Infantry
-1 to hit light armor
Shuriken Cannon – Anti Personnel (4) – Range 24” S5 AP-2 D1

A shooting example would be that a squad of Imperial Guard are hiding in cover, partially exposed. The Vyper can see a few of them and fires all weapons at the Light Infantry guard unit. The Bright Lance can only hit on a roll of 5+ because light infantry has a -2 to hit while in cover. The Shuriken Cannon would normally hit with a -1 modifier if the light infantry was in the open because it is an Anti-material weapon. But again because the Light infantry are inside cover they still get a -2 to hit. So only rolls of 5+ will score hits against them. COVER IS LIFE for light infantry.

Another Example is some renegade guardsman engage a squad of space marines. They fire their lasguns at the space marines in rapid fire range and score 10 hits. They amazingly enough roll to wound 5 times. The space marines are heavy infantry, so they have a +1 to save against anti-personnel weapons. So they roll the 5 saves and hit a 2+ on every one of them. No casualties. Light infantry and anti personnel weapons are specialized for killing other light infantry. You must use the right unit to kill the target. Tempestus Scions, on the other hand, would make short work of Space Marines because plasma weapons are intended to kill Heavy infantry and Light Armor. As you can see, if you do not use the correct unit with the correct weapons you can’t really kill the target.

The idea is to force a combined arms list balanced with light infantry, heavy infantry, light armor, heavy armor. All the units must work in unison to support one another against different threat classes, utilizing their own specialized weapons.

So far in our example light infantry did not seem impressive. But imagine teams of light infantry armed with missile launchers in cover raining down Krak missiles on tanks, and firing guided anti-air missiles to take out flyers. That -2 to hit in cover becomes extremely helpful now. The enemy now has to deploy assault troops to flush them out from their cover. It adds more complexity and requires more thinking.

Tanks will still have their place when high mobility in open areas is valuable, when there is a need to destroy walkers, light armor, heavy armor, and artillery. But sending tanks right into the middle of a city becomes extremely dangerous. A terminator squad could smash through a wall and start power fisting the tank to death, or light infantry armed with special weapons could blast it point blank with melta-guns.

There is no longer any “Win” button.

COVER RULES

All shooting and cover are determined by True Line of Sight (TLOS) which is to say that any model wishing to fire must have a direct line of sight against the target.

What constitutes a model being able to fire?
The model wishing to fire must have its head, sensors, targeting system, etc. AND the weapon it intends to use in LOS of the enemy target. So a sniper that has his head and rifle barrel with LOS is all that he needs to shoot. For tanks and other vehicles this means the turret, or sponson, must have LOS to the target.

What do you need to see in order to shoot?
You must be able to see a significant part/structure of the enemy target.
This Includes Appendage structures, an arm, a leg, a head, Turret (-1 to hit)
The Center of Mass. For an Infantry this the torso. For a tank this is the hull.
What does not count as a targetable structure – antennae, banners, and similar non critical structures for movement, shooting, operation of the unit.


Moving - movement range is indicated by the movement value of each unit. Units moving faster than 12 or more inches per turn have a -1 to hit. Assault troops with jump packs. Flyers. Bikers. These units all move so rapidly it is difficult to score hits.

Battlefield terrain can affect the ability of units to move. Deep water, sheer cliffs, are all impossible to cross unless the unit fly’s. Rocky terrain, steep inclines, bombed out buildings with rubble are all treacherous terrain for infantry and vehicles to attempt to pass. Movement is cut in half to reflect the difficulty of navigating through this terrain. Roll a d6 for tracked or wheeled vehicles moving through such terrain. On a 6 the unit is stuck until the next turn. Walkers, anti-grav and flyers all ignore difficult terrain.

Shooting - declare the target. Consider all to hit modifiers from the Weapon Class being fired (Anti-Personnel, Special, Light Armor, Heavy Armor, etc) , Cover, and Target Class (Heavy Infantry for Example is -1 to hit from heavy weapons) modifiers. Roll to hit.

Charging- failed charged because you rolled double 1’s? That’s absolute nonsense. All charges are 6+d6 inches.

Assault troops ignore overwatch from unit they charge. Howling banshees. Genestealers. Assault marines. By using technology like banshee masks, lightning fast bounding leaps, or high angles of attack, or flash bang grenades, assault troops negate overwatch. They also have +1 strength on the charge.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cover and saves.

Terrain and it’s importance. The battlefield determines the strategy, tactics, and units to be used. An open battlefield is heaven for tank heavy armies while an urban battlefield is perfect for infantry equipped with short range firepower to bust tanks open in the alleys. Make a true effort to create balanced interesting terrain for your games.

It looks like you have a reasonable basis here, but you need to go back through it and reword a couple of things:

"-1 to hit from heavy weapons" is a bit bad. It assumes that heavy weapons are designed to shoot at tanks, which isn't true. Heavy bolters, Heavy Stubbers, Vulcan Mega-Bolter, Kill-Blasta, just to name a few, are heavy weapons for killing light / heavy infantry.

This can easily be abolished, in a fluffy way, by stating that heavy weapons can ignore negative modifiers due to their target class if they do not move. This way you reword the "-1 to hit if you move" business. It also means that a heavy bolter will not be at -3 to hit light infantry in cover!

If you're after an element of realism, who's going to be more accurate - a guy running over a battlefield, or a guy laying down, resting his big gun on sandbags? Plus, the big gun fires more bullets!

I would also want pinning back, and I'd want it to be there just for being shot at. If 30 orks spray the cover your in with bullets, you're not going to run out just because they couldn't hit you!

Perhaps give heavy anti-infantry weapons the option for "suppressive fire", where they get -1 to hit but they cause pinning - they're just spraying the area to keep people's heads down. Alternatively, make heavy machine gun style weapons suppressing at all times.

What about T6 Infantry? I think there's at lease a few out there.

What about Monstrous Creatures?

Some of these more detailed rules you have given could work but it’s a fine line between keeping things simple and realistic enough with balance too. And then having bloated complex rules with a million exceptions.

Any existing weapons currently classified as heavy weapons but that are designed to shoot infantry would simply be reclassified as antipersonnel weapons and no longer have a penalty. I think the idea about removing the hit modifiers for heavy weapons against infantry is actually going backwards.

Infantry are intended to be the best at closing distance with and killing other infantry. Once you start making it easy for heavy weapons to target and kill infantry then no one will bother taking infantry. The entire point of these rules are to make each unit class specialized for specific purposes so people actually make combined arms army lists and not just spam 1 unit or two.

Pinning rules could be a real nightmare to create. And I think it would cause a lot of headaches. A lot of stuff to keep track of. I could probably come up with something sorta simple. But man it would have so many special situations and would it actually add much to the game?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blndmage wrote:
What about T6 Infantry? I think there's at lease a few out there.

What about Monstrous Creatures?

The classes go by toughness. So you just plug in whatever it’s toughness is. And that tells you if it falls under light or heavy armor. Some bugs have a very tough hide.

warpedpig wrote:
Some of these more detailed rules you have given could work but it’s a fine line between keeping things simple and realistic enough with balance too. And then having bloated complex rules with a million exceptions.

Any existing weapons currently classified as heavy weapons but that are designed to shoot infantry would simply be reclassified as antipersonnel weapons and no longer have a penalty. I think the idea about removing the hit modifiers for heavy weapons against infantry is actually going backwards.

Infantry are intended to be the best at closing distance with and killing other infantry. Once you start making it easy for heavy weapons to target and kill infantry then no one will bother taking infantry. The entire point of these rules are to make each unit class specialized for specific purposes so people actually make combined arms army lists and not just spam 1 unit or two.

Pinning rules could be a real nightmare to create. And I think it would cause a lot of headaches. A lot of stuff to keep track of. I could probably come up with something sorta simple. But man it would have so many special situations and would it actually add much to the game?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blndmage wrote:
What about T6 Infantry? I think there's at lease a few out there.

What about Monstrous Creatures?

The classes go by toughness. So you just plug in whatever it’s toughness is. And that tells you if it falls under light or heavy armor. Some bugs have a very tough hide.

The issue there is that now you have heavy weapons squads with heavy bolters moving and shooting because their weapons are no longer "heavy".

You also have now made wraithguard (who were T6 last I heard, which was last edition so may be wrong) into Light Armour. I suggest classifying units independently of their toughness - though it is a good baseline to work from.


I also feel that pinning will be necessary. It's important to note that if you have 2 shooty armies of BS5+ infantry sat in cover, they will be able to do precisely nothing to one another. And the first one which breaks cover to try to do something will then get shot. stalemates are bad for the game!

In other news, if you have heavy weapons teams in cover shooting across the board at one another, they will be at -4 to hit each other! Vehicles firing heavy weapons at them will be at -3 to hit. You're engineering a game which disproportionately rewards light infantry in cover with decent guns. You're ushering in the era of the T'au.

With your current system:
Battlesuits are Heavy Infantry
Tau are light infantry.

Pus broadsides and fire warriors in cover and you're faced with -2 to hit the warriors, -1 to hit the suits, -4 to hit the warriors with heavy bolters (wut?) and -2 to hit the suits with a missile - which has been an excellent way to kill them for many editions. Meanwhile the Tau will be shooting you for longer, without the -2 for cover, with markerlights to cancel any other negatives, with more powerful weapons.

I feel that there may be too much going on, and that it will be a nightmare to get balance in such a complex game as 40k. I hate people sitting back and shooting all game - you're offering such rewards for being in cover that people will never shift, unless they have a transport - more realistic, yes, but dull. Plus the price drop you'd need for nids and orks, and any CC horde who can't benefit much from cover, would mean a lot more bodies on the field - and a slower game.

Why the hell are you so hell bent on making heavy weapons hit infantry easily?

Get assault troops. Use heavy infantry. Use flamers. Use all the stuff designed to kill infantry hiding in cover

Did you see how fast a marine could kill a light infantry guy in close combat. Wounding on 2. A heavy Bolter is anti light armor. It’s not anti personnel. It does a decent job against heavy infantry though. It’s extremely easy for a human sized target to hide behind cover.

It’s also extremely easy for them to die when assault troops or heavy infantry get close to them. They are by no means invincible. They just require you to root them out with infantry.

This post said new basic rules. Adapt them to your liking for your own home rules. They are merely a basis. Adapt them however you want.

warpedpig wrote:
Why the hell are you so hell bent on making heavy weapons hit infantry easily?

Because that's the job of a decent percentage of the heavy weapons in the game? Heavy Bolters, Assault Cannons, Reaper Chaincannons, Frag Missiles and a whole bunch of others I've probably forgotten about are dedicated anti-personnel weapons. Your current rules suggestions make these weapons bad at their job for seemingly arbitrary reasons. I think what would be better would be something similar to Epic's approach (which has also partially been ported into the new Apocalypse rulkes). Give each weapon different stats for shooting at tanks/monsters and infantry of all types. Or, to simplify things, classify each weapon as AT or AP and impose a -2 modifier when shooting at the "wrong" target type. Then you can have anti-personnel heavy weapons that fill that niche, and anti-tank weapons that are better against armour. Autocannons, whihc are basically anti light vehicle weapons, would probably be AT under this set-up but their higher rate of fire over something like a Lascannon would make them better at killing lower-wound lighter vehicles than killing heavier vehicles with lots of wounds.

While I get your point on how you want this to work I think you may benefit from having a couple overlapping T level classes. Say for wraithguard and terminators, have super-heavy infantry. At which point I'd honestly go with my gut and bump the armor to d12, removing the armor and hit modifiers for units targeting them. D12 makes their armor pretty solid all on it's own, and really makes leaning into heavy weapons against them valuable. Lascannons get fired at these guys for good reason, they're aren't that fast, but they definitely are durable enough to potentially take a couple hits from one.

Possibly putting vehicles on to d12s as well, I hadn't really considered it much prior to the apoc coverage, but I'm a fan of not adding too many dice classes in, while expanding the range of armor rolls for things that are really tough, though that does require anti-tank weapons have some really serious punching power. Without having to resolve 2d6 over and over.

And I'd probably not take away overwatch when assault troops charge, have to throw gun lines some bone and not reward endless multi-charging. Maybe they can consolidate into units they didn't charge in exchange for yet more overwatch. Make it more of a choice/risk rather than an auto take every time. Would also give marines the leg up with their durability over things like my GSC. Heck, maybe even make them really terrifying and in the event they wipe out a squad they can not only consolidate into another squad but attack again.... maybe as a unit type specific stratagem? Feels pretty brutal to be a basic unit ability.

That all said, I'm a fan of the idea of giving more solid roles to units and a fair bit of what's here. But I assure you the knights players will be unhappy with any rules you give them based on this structure.

I think this has some foundational issues.

First, it's way to complicated. Unit classes with a list of modifiers and all that is going to be a lot to remember. One of the good things about the switch from 7th to 8th is getting rid of all that crap. There are easier ways to have the same impacts without having all the rules bs to remember or constantly have to reference.

Second your modifiers are all assuming space marines who have a lot of room to play with modifiers. What are you going to do about orks? Are they just incapable of shooting heavy weapons?

 Lance845 wrote:
I think this has some foundational issues.

First, it's way to complicated. Unit classes with a list of modifiers and all that is going to be a lot to remember. One of the good things about the switch from 7th to 8th is getting rid of all that crap. There are easier ways to have the same impacts without having all the rules bs to remember or constantly have to reference.

Second your modifiers are all assuming space marines who have a lot of room to play with modifiers. What are you going to do about orks? Are they just incapable of shooting heavy weapons?

Like I said this is the basics. If you want to adapt it to your army and needs then go for it. Delete the rules you think don’t work. Or make a special rule for Orks

I am not providing feedback for me to enjoy your system. I already have a system that works well for me. I am giving you feedback for your system. If you intend, as you have stated several times on here, to make a new edition of the game that fixes a lot of the issues of 8th, then you might want to start from a position that allows the armies to actually play it. If instead you are just making a new version of 30k where everyone is space marines, then I guess you should make that bit more clear in your stated goals?

 Lance845 wrote:
I am not providing feedback for me to enjoy your system. I already have a system that works well for me. I am giving you feedback for your system. If you intend, as you have stated several times on here, to make a new edition of the game that fixes a lot of the issues of 8th, then you might want to start from a position that allows the armies to actually play it. If instead you are just making a new version of 30k where everyone is space marines, then I guess you should make that bit more clear in your stated goals?

If you don’t think this system works for you then you don’t need to post. Just don’t use it. I really don’t care. Some people will see how this may work for the basis of their own home rules and use it somehow or the underlying ideas will be used. All you guys keep getting hung up on things you could very easily ignore

Instead of using 90% and ignoring 10% you don’t agree with. You cry about the 10% and say it’s all broken. Typical.

Alright, this is going to be my last post in this thread.

This is the proposed rules forum. It's not just here for you to throw out ideas free from criticism. The point of the vast majority of the discussion here is for people to get feedback, refine their ideas, and come out the better for it.

Get off your high horse. Stop catastrophising. Nobody said "it's all broken!" If you can't accept criticism, especially constructive criticism then I suggest you just stop posting your ideas on the internet.

Until you can, this thread is basically pointless. Good luck warpedpig.

warpedpig wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
I am not providing feedback for me to enjoy your system. I already have a system that works well for me. I am giving you feedback for your system. If you intend, as you have stated several times on here, to make a new edition of the game that fixes a lot of the issues of 8th, then you might want to start from a position that allows the armies to actually play it. If instead you are just making a new version of 30k where everyone is space marines, then I guess you should make that bit more clear in your stated goals?

If you don’t think this system works for you then you don’t need to post. Just don’t use it. I really don’t care. Some people will see how this may work for the basis of their own home rules and use it somehow or the underlying ideas will be used. All you guys keep getting hung up on things you could very easily ignore

Instead of using 90% and ignoring 10% you don’t agree with. You cry about the 10% and say it’s all broken. Typical.

There are some rulesets where "Make stuff up" is acceptable.

D&D, for instance, allows for homebrewing and ruling on edge cases. The core system covers most of what's needed, but the designers knew and know that you can't plan for everything, and a rulebook that tries to do that will be hopelessly bloated. So, at every table, there's one person in charge of making the rules in those edge cases that should (hopefully) only come up rarely. That person is the DM.

A competitive ruleset is NOT the place to say "Make stuff up!" It should work as intended from start to finish, without needing input from a neutral arbiter. While in a game as big as 40k, it's difficult to cover everything, you should strive to do as much as you can.

Orks are an entire faction that's basically unplayable with your rules. At the base, that makes them bad.

I would advise you spend less time complaining about people critiquing your work and instead focus on making it better.

Edit: Also, looking more closely at them, the way it's written Bolters do 2d3 damage at S4 AP-1. That's... That's pretty crazy.

And both Marines and Terminators can upgrade them to AP-2 for 3 PPM, regardless of whether they have a regular bolter or a storm bolter.

Metlaguns are straight worse than Powerfists, despite having one shot as compared to Terminator's two attacks.

You also don't have any points listed on anything except upgrades, which makes the numbers kinda pointless.

A Bright Lance is WORSE than a Power Fist? That's ridiculous.

Like I said. Don't focus on the little details about weapon stats. The general thing to take away and the most important thing to take away is

Unit classes with special modifiers that make them excel at specific purposes. And weapon classes that excel at targeting those specific units.

I may go back later on and touch up the values and the basic modifiers for each unit/weapon class but I am not getting paid to do such an extensive job as reworking every single weapon and balancing them against every single army. I have other stuff to do with my time like relax and have a beer.

So just take it for what its worth. If you have good ideas for what to fix and how to fix it, then post it. I will incorporate it into my ruleset and repost it with corrections later.

And yes meltaguns are worse than power fists. Meltagun has the benefit of range. Powerfist has to be ON TOP of the enemy to do any damage. And Bolter changes were just an idea and should get the D3 damage removed.

Orks should have a special rule where a mob of boys shooting always hits on a 5+ because they are discharging a wall of bullets. Sheer volume.

warpedpig wrote:
Like I said. Don't focus on the little details about weapon stats. The general thing to take away and the most important thing to take away is

Unit classes with special modifiers that make them excel at specific purposes. And weapon classes that excel at targeting those specific units.

I may go back later on and touch up the values and the basic modifiers for each unit/weapon class but I am not getting paid to do such an extensive job as reworking every single weapon and balancing them against every single army. I have other stuff to do with my time like relax and have a beer.

So just take it for what its worth. If you have good ideas for what to fix and how to fix it, then post it. I will incorporate it into my ruleset and repost it with corrections later.

And yes meltaguns are worse than power fists. Meltagun has the benefit of range. Powerfist has to be ON TOP of the enemy to do any damage. And Bolter changes were just an idea and should get the D3 damage removed.

Orks should have a special rule where a mob of boys shooting always hits on a 5+ because they are discharging a wall of bullets. Sheer volume.

So, you want to rework the rules, but don't want to actually put in effort to make them work?

This sounds doomed for failure.

I gave a framework for new rules that works pretty damn well in principle and with some tweaking would be great. What I won’t do is go through every codex and unit and weapon and iron out every detail. So you can take the fundamental concept and use it as you wish. But I’m not gonna remake the entire 40k game. Sorry I have a real life.

warpedpig wrote:
I gave a framework for new rules that works pretty damn well in principle and with some tweaking would be great. What I won’t do is go through every codex and unit and weapon and iron out every detail. So you can take the fundamental concept and use it as you wish. But I’m not gonna remake the entire 40k game. Sorry I have a real life.

Except your changes are so vast and all-encompassing that, as it stands right now, you CANNOT play a game with your rules. You'd have to go through every single weapon and assign it new special rules, new stats, a certain type...

Dude, it's fine to say "I don't have the time to do that." I agree-that's a pretty big undertaking. But don't pretend that half-assing a few new rules and sweeping changes fixes the game.

Actually the basic concept fixed the game. Now it’s up to you to adapt your army lists to these basic classes I gave you. And iron the bugs out. If you think one person has the time to change 20 armies worth of rules and units and weapons and play test it. You’re absolutely a lunatic

warpedpig wrote:
Actually the basic concept fixed the game. Now it’s up to you to adapt your army lists to these basic classes I gave you. And iron the bugs out. If you think one person has the time to change 20 armies worth of rules and units and weapons and play test it. You’re absolutely a lunatic

Really? The game is fixed? What playtesting have you done to ensure that?

But, let me give you a challenge. I'll give you a list I used in a recent game, and you apply your rules to it. Should be easy, since they're so thorough and complete, right?



With that list, how do I play under your rules?

Nope. This is where i chime back in. Your basic concept hasnt fixed gak. Igougo still has all its problems. List building still has all its problems. Los and terrain rules still have all their problems. Cp and stratgems still have all their problems.

Your "basic framework" is a more complicated way to call something infantry that adds complication to unit and weapon interactions. Not depth. Complication. Do not confuse the one for the other.

No added tactical depth has been achieved. No issues with the game have been addressed. You just proposed a framework for achieveing basically nothing and then told everyone else to get to work. This is one of the worst proposed rules threads. I redact my good luck. This is a mess.

Sure pal. You’re just upset I’m not agreeing with you.

warpedpig wrote:
Sure pal. You’re just upset I’m not agreeing with you.

Do you have any sense of introspection?

And as a reminder, make this list:



Work with your rules. Should be easy-after all, you know the rules better than anyone else.

I gave you a starting point, and you basically are asking me to rework the entire chaos codex. No thanks. You can take the basic principles of my class/weapon system and then make house rules for your own army

This is exactly what I said in my first post. Please troll someone else.

warpedpig wrote:
I gave you a starting point, and you basically are asking me to rework the entire chaos codex. No thanks. You can take the basic principles of my class/weapon system and then make house rules for your own army

This is exactly what I said in my first post. Please troll someone else.

Yes, because that list includes...



If you honestly think that's the entire chaos Dex, you need to recheck your books.

I'm asking you to apply YOUR OWN RULES to 9 units, 1 unique unit, and 1 Fortification. Out of about 70 units, one or two dozen unique characters, and I believe three fortifications.

Why on earth should I put in more effort than you're willing to?

Edit: Not to mention, you don't have a classification for T2 models, Daemon Princes aren't armor (they're monsters, but still T6) and if I included some Plague Drones, they would go mid-game from being classed as Heavy Infantry (which they are not-they have no armor and aren't Infantry) to Light Armor.

Demon princes may be T6 and not a vehicle but their toughness would still be considered light armor. Why is that such a difficult concept to grasp?

Include T2 models as light infantry obviously. If you can’t figure out how to quickly translate units from the old system to the new one then just save yourself the time. To me it’s a pretty simple way to give these units a classification.

Do you see a demon prince or a plague drone qualifying as infantry and getting all the same cover saves despite being the same size and toughness as a vyper or other light armor vehicle?

Remember I said this was to simplify the game? If you treat large creatures like they are a light armor vehicle and they don’t get cover saves as easily then you have more reason to not spam them and to include infantry units.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
You should put more effort into it because if you want to use a new system for YOUR army then you’ll adapt them to this new system. I will adapt my Eldar. That’s about it. You adapt what you want

If you don’t like the system. Do not use it. Simple man. For some people anyway


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I’m not writing this up for money. Why am I gonna do all that work for you? Lmao

Have you played this yet?

Daemon Princes are characters of 8 wounds. They can't be shot at so long as they're not the closest model.

And you mean to tell me a Sister of Battle is treated the same when it comes to cover as a Grot?

Or that a Plague Drone is treated the same as a Space Marine? (Unless they get a Toughness boost, in which case, they're suddenly the same as a Rhino?)

And what classification do Malefic Talons get? According to your list, they'd be Anti-Material, unless my Prince is by a Poxbringer, in which case they become Anti-Tank. And either way, they suffer a penalty to hit Infantry that a Daemon Prince should rightfully mow down like chaff. (Not to mention, you refer to "Heavy Weapons" a lot but your weapon types don't include that.)

Why does my Poxbringer, who's about the same size as a Pplaguebearer, has his weapon be treated as Anti-Material, while my Plaguebearers are Anti-Personnel?

warpedpig wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
You should put more effort into it because if you want to use a new system for YOUR army then you’ll adapt them to this new system. I will adapt my Eldar. That’s about it. You adapt what you want

If you don’t like the system. Do not use it. Simple man. For some people anyway


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I’m not writing this up for money. Why am I gonna do all that work for you? Lmao

I don't want to use this. It seems awful. But I believe in homebrew enough that I want to see what's posted on the forums I frequent improved upon.

You have, to my knowledge, not ONCE taken criticisms of your work and modified accordingly. Some of my critiques might be nit-picking, but you have not, far as I can tell, taken literally ANYTHING anyone else said into consideration.

If you scroll up I literally admitted Orks needed a special rule and bolters were over powered.

So obviously you aren’t reading what I say. Or you are just wanting to attack me with hyperbole because you can’t see how simple it is to incorporate your units into it. You need me to hold your hand apparently.

How old are you?

warpedpig wrote:
If you scroll up I literally admitted Orks needed a special rule and bolters were over powered.

So obviously you aren’t reading what I say. Or you are just wanting to attack me with hyperbole because you can’t see how simple it is to incorporate your units into it. You need me to hold your hand apparently.

How old are you?

Okay, that's a start. Now-what rule do Orks get? Does it apply to Grots too? How will it affect balance and points cost?

And considering neither of those ended up in the OP... It doesn't seem like you really took them to heart.