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I note that unlike other Chapters, the Space Wolves lack the <Chapter> designator.

So it appears that since they have no Chapter designator (they do have a Space Wold keyword) this would mean that vehicles who allow <chapter> models to ride in them exclude Space Wolves.

Space Wolf vehicles CLEARLY exclude anyone not SpaceWolf from being in their transports. Also, the rules clearly say for the Mastodon that only <Chapter> units can ride in it. Well the Space Wolves have no Chapter. They just have a keyword "Space Wolves". That's it. Looking at Spacewuolf rules, i can see no reasonable way to get them into a Mastodon.

Thoughts?

 Jancoran wrote:
I note that unlike other Chapters, the Space Wolves lack the <Chapter> designator.

So it appears that since they have no Chapter designator (they do have a Space Wold keyword) this would mean that vehicles who allow <chapter> models to ride in them exclude Space Wolves.

Space Wolf vehicles CLEARLY exclude anyone not SpaceWolf from being in their transports. Also, the rules clearly say for the Mastodon that only <Chapter> units can ride in it. Well the Space Wolves have no Chapter. They just have a keyword "Space Wolves". That's it. Looking at Spacewuolf rules, i can see no reasonable way to get them into a Mastodon.

Thoughts?

The same is true of Space Marine Rhino's, Things like SPACE WOLVES, BLOOD ANGELS, DARK ANGELS, Etc... can not ride in something that allows <Chapter> because that is a part of the Space Marine Codex and does not extend to the units that do not have <Chapter> listed in their keywords.

<CHAPTER> is a placeholder. As soon as you add a unit with <CHAPTER> to your army you have to choose what Chapter keyword to fill in in its place, and from then on the unit no longer has <CHAPTER> it has whatever chapter you gave it instead.

The rules in the Space Marine Codex say you can never choose SPACE WOLVES (or DARK ANGELS or BLOOD ANGELS) as this keyword.

However it would be accurate to say that Ultramarines (for example) do not have <CHAPTER> units in their army, because once they are in their army they are ULTRAMARINES instead.

This means that once your Rhino is in your army and is now an ULTRAMARINES Rhino it is not capable of transporting Salamanders. Even though <CHAPTER> could have been SALAMANDERS, you chose ULTRAMARINES and it can't from then on be anything except ULTRAMARINES.

Q: Are there any restrictions on which Chapter I can choose when replacing the <Chapter> Faction keyword on datasheets within this book?

A: Yes. You cannot choose for any of these units to be
from the Legion of the Damned or Grey Knights
Chapters. They can be from any other Chapter though,
including Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves
and Deathwatch.

Q: Are there any restrictions on which Chapter I can choose when replacing the <Chapter> Faction keyword on datasheets within this book?A: Yes. You cannot choose for any of these units to be from the Legion of the Damned or Grey KnightsChapters. They can be from any other Chapter though, including Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Deathwatch.

2nd page of the Imperial Armour index FAQ

It’s fairly obvious that FW wrote their Indexes for 8th in a short lunch break, so you have to use some intuition and leeway when using their books.

Only a truly unreasonable opponent would ever have tried to stop you using Space Marine vehicles from the FW Index in your army. The intent was never to stop entire Chapters using the book - FW just didn’t know the rules that would appear later in Codexes.

Luckily, they also FAQ’d it on page 3 of the relevant FAQ:

Q: Are there any restrictions on which Chapter I can choose when replacing the <Chapter> Faction keyword on datasheets within this book?

A: Yes. You cannot choose for any of these units to be from the Legion of the Damned or Grey Knights Chapters. They can be from any other Chapter though, including Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Deathwatch.

 Jancoran wrote:
I note that unlike other Chapters, the Space Wolves lack the <Chapter> designator.

So it appears that since they have no Chapter designator (they do have a Space Wold keyword) this would mean that vehicles who allow <chapter> models to ride in them exclude Space Wolves.

Space Wolf vehicles CLEARLY exclude anyone not SpaceWolf from being in their transports. Also, the rules clearly say for the Mastodon that only <Chapter> units can ride in it. Well the Space Wolves have no Chapter. They just have a keyword "Space Wolves". That's it. Looking at Spacewuolf rules, i can see no reasonable way to get them into a Mastodon.

Thoughts?

do people making posts reallly think this or are they essentially just glorified trolls? I mean.. jesus christ, <chapter> is a place holder for the CHAPTER Keyword, which in the case of Space Wolves is.. SPACE WOLVES.

I mean seriously.. some people.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
I note that unlike other Chapters, the Space Wolves lack the <Chapter> designator.

So it appears that since they have no Chapter designator (they do have a Space Wold keyword) this would mean that vehicles who allow <chapter> models to ride in them exclude Space Wolves.

Space Wolf vehicles CLEARLY exclude anyone not SpaceWolf from being in their transports. Also, the rules clearly say for the Mastodon that only <Chapter> units can ride in it. Well the Space Wolves have no Chapter. They just have a keyword "Space Wolves". That's it. Looking at Spacewuolf rules, i can see no reasonable way to get them into a Mastodon.

Thoughts?

do people making posts reallly think this or are they essentially just glorified trolls? I mean.. jesus christ, <chapter> is a place holder for the CHAPTER Keyword, which in the case of Space Wolves is.. SPACE WOLVES.

I mean seriously.. some people.

It is a little more complex than that, as the posts above yours point out.

Normally you can't substitute <CHAPTER> for SPACE WOLVES. But you can for units in the Forgeworld Index.

Sub-Faction keyword rules are badly written in several ways. One of them is that ULTRAMARINES should not be a keyword - instead, it should be CHAPTER: ULTRAMARINES.

In terms of the rules for the game; space wolves, dark angels, and blood angels are not Space Marines.

Just as Thousand Sons, and Deathguard are not Chaos Space Marines.

 Stux wrote:
<CHAPTER> is a placeholder. As soon as you add a unit with <CHAPTER> to your army you have to choose what Chapter keyword to fill in in its place, and from then on the unit no longer has <CHAPTER> it has whatever chapter you gave it instead.

The rules in the Space Marine Codex say you can never choose SPACE WOLVES (or DARK ANGELS or BLOOD ANGELS) as this keyword.

However it would be accurate to say that Ultramarines (for example) do not have <CHAPTER> units in their army, because once they are in their army they are ULTRAMARINES instead.

This means that once your Rhino is in your army and is now an ULTRAMARINES Rhino it is not capable of transporting Salamanders. Even though <CHAPTER> could have been SALAMANDERS, you chose ULTRAMARINES and it can't from then on be anything except ULTRAMARINES.

This. If you'll look at the DA and BA codexes, you'll also see they don't have a <CHAPTER> keyword. Because it's already been replaced, like your Space Wolves. The Space Wolves Rhino (assuming a lack of typos, or copy/paste oversight) should state it can carry Space Wolves Infantry. My Dark Angels codex did so. But like I said Copy/Paste errors abound, especially in the ebook versions - you should see some of the wacky popups for Combat Squad rules.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you're talking about the new Primaris Repulsor and it's "Can carry X <CHAPTER> PRIMARIS INFANTRY" or whatever it says? We'll need to make a few assumptions based on some rules holes GW may or may not have - IF we assume Wolves can take the new Primaris
we ALSO assume they can replace <CHAPTER> with SPACE WOLVES - allowing SPACE WOLVES PRIMARIS INFANTRY to ride around in them.

Precedence is all over the map. Theoretically it's a SPACE MARINE tank, taking it's rules from Codex Space Marines - which says <CHAPTER> cannot be SW/DA/BA and stongly implies or weakly states it can't be a group with their own Codex like DW. The Vanguard Marines book has a different but similar blurb on <CHAPTER> which tells you what to do with SW/DA key words.. and strongly implies but does not outright state other chapters can take these units. Beyond that, the Repulsor doesn't point to any Codex to explain what to do with <CHAPTER> which can be argued as either any chapter can take one, or NO Chapter can take them, because there is no rule for what to do with <CHAPTER> Before too long, assuming they haven't already expect to see a FAQ on it. THey've slow-fed new units from Space Marines to non-codex chapters before, but I doubt they do that with only the second Primaris transport ever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blaktoof wrote:
In terms of the rules for the game; space wolves, dark angels, and blood angels are not Space Marines.

Just as Thousand Sons, and Deathguard are not Chaos Space Marines.

In Game terms, nobody is a Space Marine. They're Adeptus Astartes. This was part of the Imperial Guard -> Astra Militarum change that was rumored to be about those faction labels being too generic for Intellectual Property Defense


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:


do people making posts reallly think this or are they essentially just glorified trolls? I mean.. jesus christ, <chapter> is a place holder for the CHAPTER Keyword, which in the case of Space Wolves is.. SPACE WOLVES.

I mean seriously.. some people.

And yes, I do believe people who own the Space Wolves book may not understand the nuance of a rule from the Codex: Space Marines book they don't own- espeically as used in a Forgeworld Index that points to an Index: Imperium no longer readily available. Index Astartes from FW redirects you to Index Imperium 1 and 2, SW are in 1, and you can't get 1 from the Apple Book store or the GW website anymore where <CHAPTER> functionality was described for people who bought the FW index.

Actually the game does use Space Marine as a game term in the Space Marine Codex. It is defined as any ADEPTUS ASTARTES unit other than Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves.

 Stux wrote:
Actually the game does use Space Marine as a game term in the Space Marine Codex. It is defined as any ADEPTUS ASTARTES unit other than Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves.

Where at? Pg 288 says BA/SW/GK are Space Marine Chapters that deviate significantly from the Codex in terms of organisation and fighting style, that's as close as it gets to a rule about Space Marines I can find.

Vigilus defiant update 1.2

Q: Is a Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or
Deathwatch Detachment also a Space Marines Detachment?
A: No. As defined in Codex: Space Marines, a Space
Marines Detachment is a Detachment that only includes
units with one of the following Faction keywords:
<Chapter>, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists,
Salamanders, White Scars, Raven Guard, Iron
Hands, Crimson Fists or Black Templars.

 p5freak wrote:
Vigilus defiant update 1.2

Q: Is a Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves or
Deathwatch Detachment also a Space Marines Detachment?
A: No. As defined in Codex: Space Marines, a Space
Marines Detachment is a Detachment that only includes
units with one of the following Faction keywords:
<Chapter>, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists,
Salamanders, White Scars, Raven Guard, Iron
Hands, Crimson Fists or Black Templars.

This is the one, thanks. It's defined by inclusion rather exclusion, I misremembered that.

Hilariously this means that a lot of Forgeworld Space Marine characters aren't technically Space Marines, such as Lias Issodon. He has RAPTORS as his chapter, which are not included in this list.

It's clear the intention is that Raptors be treated as Space Marines, but that's Forgeworld rules for you!

The FAQ kinda clarified this. While the codex doesnt give them credit for being a <Chapter> its apparent that this wasn't intentional. But I guess what we need is a clarification that ISNT just for Forge World.