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Hi all, I’ve got few questions here

Are Primaris Space Marine creates using a new version of the Gene Seed?

I ask this question because we know that the Primaris were made in a laboratory by Cawl but what if all of those Primaris Marines were killed and more needed to be made? Would they have to undergo Trials just like Neophytes of the older type would?

Many thanks

The answer isn't 100% sure, given how regular space marines can be upgraded my guess is.. not really. and it's just extra organs and implants are cultivated and added

Azkallean wrote:
Hi all, I’ve got few questions here

Are Primaris Space Marine creates using a new version of the Gene Seed?

I ask this question because we know that the Primaris were made in a laboratory by Cawl but what if all of those Primaris Marines were killed and more needed to be made? Would they have to undergo Trials just like Neophytes of the older type would?

Many thanks

Primaris were made using a new sample of original primarch geneseed that roboutte provided cawl. As this was a clean sample, it lacked all the degradation of the modern geneseed. Cawl also received direct access to some of the Emperor’s labs. Cawl the derived two additional organs based on the information he acquired, and included a new cybernetic muscle upgrade into all Primaris.

Cawls techniques and the higher quality geneseed means rejection rates are far lower. Current space marines had to use the top .01% of humans to keep the, from dying during conversion, and then go through the process slowly. Cawl’s processes seem to imply any physically fit specimen of the right age will likely succeed in becoming a Primaris. We don’t yet know if the scout training phase has been retained, but it seems unlikely since it hasn’t been mentioned.

Same geneseed as now Marine to Primaris conversion is becoming more common.

Emperor Spears details the process. And considering the patient was severely injured, then obviously just about any Marine can be converted.

As discussed in my thread a little lower down the list, the role of scouts is kind of in the air as of now. On the battlefield they've essentially been superseded by Vanguard troops. Although they could act as a Vanguard Lite (In carapace armour), that seems unlikely considering that their only advantage would be lighter, quieter armour - however power armour is designed to be worn for weeks on end with little discomfort anyway, can carry immense weight and as of now the final advantage is superseded by Phobos armour being designed to be 'silent', not to mention it's sleeker than full PA, and camoline paint can be applied ala the Badab War camouflages. So basically, Scouts have little to no use.

What this adds to answer your question is that the concept of trials and scout tuition appears to be either non-existent for Primaris or, as I suspect, is in fact increased to provide the Primaris with adequate training before their baptism of fire. As for the gene-seed itself, it would appear that it has reverted back to GC era purity, as mentioned above, and has higher success rates - so it's likely the new standard gene-seed.

As an OT aside - I'm curious about Space Marine aspirants. There are a whole bunch of characters who have notable backgrounds - but how on earth did they fit all that in before 15? For example, Arjac Rockfist, supposedly a 'Giant of a Man' and a blacksmith before his ascension. So are you telling me that this 15 year old was not only a 6ft+, hulking brute but also managed to become an accomplished tradesman all before puberty. F***ing ridiculous.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
As an OT aside - I'm curious about Space Marine aspirants. There are a whole bunch of characters who have notable backgrounds - but how on earth did they fit all that in before 15? For example, Arjac Rockfist, supposedly a 'Giant of a Man' and a blacksmith before his ascension. So are you telling me that this 15 year old was not only a 6ft+, hulking brute but also managed to become an accomplished tradesman all before puberty. F***ing ridiculous.

Space Wolves specifically 'mature' early and are recruited late, due to the Canis Helix. Foe example - "Before his induction into the Space Wolves, Lukas [the Trickster] was a near-legendary figure amongst Fenris's womanfolk, famous for sharing a dozen beds in a single night".

@beast_gts - Yeaahhhhh, really? I'm prepared to say, 'Ok', but would you have a citation handy? There is nothing on Lexicanum that makes any mention that SW's recruit older aspirants, nor that the Canis Helix has any effect on age requirements. In fact, the entry on Fenris states they take the youngest warriors. As such, I have to consider that SWs, being Astartes all the same, still need young aspirants. I'm unwilling to believe that these youths somehow have magically accelerated lives, just because Space Wolves.There is a difference between 'maturing' in a sexual nature (Lets face it, that was common 500 years ago) and essentially having accelerated growth and intelligence capabilities that allow you to become adult in all but name within 15 years. Not to mention that they've only had the same span of time in which they accumulate these experiences. That's basically putting Space Wolves on a parity with Primarchs.

Sorry, without a citation I can't really accept that. If proven otherwise, I call absolute fanboy bull**** on that on the part of the writers - atrocious SW fanwank just to make them appear super special.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
As discussed in my thread a little lower down the list, the role of scouts is kind of in the air as of now. On the battlefield they've essentially been superseded by Vanguard troops. Although they could act as a Vanguard Lite (In carapace armour), that seems unlikely considering that their only advantage would be lighter, quieter armour - however power armour is designed to be worn for weeks on end with little discomfort anyway, can carry immense weight and as of now the final advantage is superseded by Phobos armour being designed to be 'silent', not to mention it's sleeker than full PA, and camoline paint can be applied ala the Badab War camouflages. So basically, Scouts have little to no use.

What this adds to answer your question is that the concept of trials and scout tuition appears to be either non-existent for Primaris or, as I suspect, is in fact increased to provide the Primaris with adequate training before their baptism of fire. As for the gene-seed itself, it would appear that it has reverted back to GC era purity, as mentioned above, and has higher success rates - so it's likely the new standard gene-seed.

As an OT aside - I'm curious about Space Marine aspirants. There are a whole bunch of characters who have notable backgrounds - but how on earth did they fit all that in before 15? For example, Arjac Rockfist, supposedly a 'Giant of a Man' and a blacksmith before his ascension. So are you telling me that this 15 year old was not only a 6ft+, hulking brute but also managed to become an accomplished tradesman all before puberty. F***ing ridiculous.

Giant of a man in a world of malnourished primitives. 5'4" (167cm) or less was pretty normal after the roman era (when the average in the UK rose to a dizzying 5'5" due to improved nutrition and sanitation) - guy in a village with good walls and a few extra cows and sheep (and a rich father, given he was also likely the blacksmith so is less at the whims of crop failures and bad lambings than the farmers themselves) could easily reach his full potential and be around 6'+ around 14-15. Plus he was a just blacksmith, not a master. Apprentice around 11-12 for three years (despite learning the basics much earlier) then puts him as a journeyman blacksmith doing decent enough stuff at 15, especially with a skilled teacher.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
@beast_gts - Yeaahhhhh, really? I'm prepared to say, 'Ok', but would you have a citation handy? There is nothing on Lexicanum that makes any mention that SW's recruit older aspirants, nor that the Canis Helix has any effect on age requirements. In fact, the entry on Fenris states they take the youngest warriors. As such, I have to consider that SWs, being Astartes all the same, still need young aspirants. I'm unwilling to believe that these youths somehow have magically accelerated lives, just because Space Wolves.There is a difference between 'maturing' in a sexual nature (Lets face it, that was common 500 years ago) and essentially having accelerated growth and intelligence capabilities that allow you to become adult in all but name within 15 years. Not to mention that they've only had the same span of time in which they accumulate these experiences. That's basically putting Space Wolves on a parity with Primarchs.

Sorry, without a citation I can't really accept that. If proven otherwise, I call absolute fanboy bull**** on that on the part of the writers - atrocious SW fanwank just to make them appear super special.

Off the top of my head, it's something like they're mid-teens when they take the Test of Morkai - "At this point, they have been implanted with the Canis Helix, the first and most basic component of the Space Wolves' gene-seed", whereas 'normal' Marines start their implants at 10-12 years old. I'll see if I can dig out the 5th Ed. Codex to check that.

by time you're 14 you'd be seen as an adult in the tribal society from which many space marines recruit from.

The age restriction is implied to be mostly arbitrary and somewhat flexible in the first place. One of the Heresy Novels suggests that it was just put in place because thats what they decided.

One Raven Guard Marine laments being unable to recruit a freedom fighter to become an astartes because Corax changed the legions guide lines to a younger age.

For the most part its there because of the ease of indoctrination for impressionable youths, and because theoretically the gene treatments would be easier. Though if you're able to genetically alter the human body to that level you could implant at any time when the body is still maturing. If your medical tech was good enough you could even continue well after that. I believe Erebus was an adult when he was elevated to an Astartes.

Only cases of people well into their adulthood, Luthor and some of the other Knights of the Order, we able to be made near Astartes and Kor Phareon was a much different sort of near-Astartes, show not being able to accept full implantation.

The process to making a primaris marine isnt much different. There are 3 extra steps added. Primaris marines obviously still start as scouts first despite the vanguard existing as their roles are still pretty different. One is a neophyte scout, one is a sneaky vanguard

Not sure how that's 'obviously.'. There is no indication anywhere of primaris scouts or their equivalent. Or maturation time of the new process (devastation of Baal implies its faster, but time is fairly meaningless in 40k)

The existing stock of primaris were trained and in and out of stasis for ??? Years/centuries, and no indication that new ones aren't just being shoved into a full fledged battle role right out of the pod

If I remember correctly in Of Honour and Iron the Primaris mention having to recruit new guys from the tenth.

123ply wrote:
The process to making a primaris marine isnt much different. There are 3 extra steps added. Primaris marines obviously still start as scouts first despite the vanguard existing as their roles are still pretty different. One is a neophyte scout, one is a sneaky vanguard

I've read the new plague novels and blood of iax, and I haven't seen any mention of scouts. The codex doesn't mention them either.

 argonak wrote:

123ply wrote:
The process to making a primaris marine isnt much different. There are 3 extra steps added. Primaris marines obviously still start as scouts first despite the vanguard existing as their roles are still pretty different. One is a neophyte scout, one is a sneaky vanguard

I've read the new plague novels and blood of iax, and I haven't seen any mention of scouts. The codex doesn't mention them either.

I still think they are used in some capacity. IIRC, I believe someone showed the Silver Templars Primaris Chapter from a new book. I could have sworn it had scouts in there.

As this was a clean sample, it lacked all the degradation of the modern geneseed.

Does that mean all Primaris have no genetic flaws i.e. cant fall to the red thirst or degenerate into wulfen etc etc?

 Ratius wrote:

As this was a clean sample, it lacked all the degradation of the modern geneseed.

Does that mean all Primaris have no genetic flaws i.e. cant fall to the red thirst or degenerate into wulfen etc etc?

in theory they are more stable and less prone to their genetic flaws. although there is mounting evidance Cawl spoke too soon when he claimed to have resolved those issues.

What im curious about is those chapters with unknown gene seed. How do they get primaris marines?
Chapters like the blood ravens or red scorpions

 Warpig1815 wrote:
@beast_gts - Yeaahhhhh, really? I'm prepared to say, 'Ok', but would you have a citation handy? There is nothing on Lexicanum that makes any mention that SW's recruit older aspirants, nor that the Canis Helix has any effect on age requirements. In fact, the entry on Fenris states they take the youngest warriors. As such, I have to consider that SWs, being Astartes all the same, still need young aspirants. I'm unwilling to believe that these youths somehow have magically accelerated lives, just because Space Wolves.There is a difference between 'maturing' in a sexual nature (Lets face it, that was common 500 years ago) and essentially having accelerated growth and intelligence capabilities that allow you to become adult in all but name within 15 years. Not to mention that they've only had the same span of time in which they accumulate these experiences. That's basically putting Space Wolves on a parity with Primarchs.

Sorry, without a citation I can't really accept that. If proven otherwise, I call absolute fanboy bull**** on that on the part of the writers - atrocious SW fanwank just to make them appear super special.

Ragnar Blackmane was at least 15 years old when he was recruited.

The 13th company was comprised of warriors who fought with Russ for at least 20 years before the coming of the Emperor.

The youngest would have been no young then 35 at the very least.

Stormblessed15 wrote:
What im curious about is those chapters with unknown gene seed. How do they get primaris marines?
Chapters like the blood ravens or red scorpions

With the latest Index Astartes article, the Custodes handed the Blood Ravens their gene seed sample from a vault on Terra. Besides making Primaris, the Blood Ravens have been studying the gene seed, but so far, have kept the results of said studying a secret.

Stormblessed15 wrote:
What im curious about is those chapters with unknown gene seed. How do they get primaris marines?
Chapters like the blood ravens or red scorpions

It sounds like Cawl must have found a way to patch existing geneseed to fix the damaged bits. Kinda like in jurassic park, except with good old Smurf DNA rather than frogs.

in the case of the blood ravens they where delivered pure "founding era" geneseed from the vaults on Mars. the blood ravens where excited by this as it was a potentially huuuge lead on their orgins.