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As the title says really. Aside from the obvious statement that GW are going to phase out scouts in some way, from a background point of view, what purpose do scouts serve now to Astartes forces?

As far as I can see, the long range overwatch/support role of Scout snipers has been taken up by Eliminators and the close range support/infiltration and reconnaissance role has been taken up by Reivers and, well, Infiltrators. As such, it seems as though the humble scout has absolutely no purpose now. While I don't exactly bemoan this, because I am a fan of the Vanguard/Reiver concepts, I do wonder what Astartes chapters will do with their trainees now. Without the Black Carapace they won't be able to operate Phobos armour and undertake their usual duties (Unless they hang around in some strange, less effective unit doing duplicate roles - which I can't see). Will this mean longer training for Initiates - or shorter training to get them into their Phobos armour?

So... thoughts on that I guess...?

Deploying Marines before they get their black carapeice has always been optional to be honest, the Space Wolves for example don't do that, but rather deploy their newbies as blood claws. In fact this is proably smarter given that scouting can be a very dangerous thing (there's a reason why in reality forward recon scouts are if I recall right, a highly trained elite) so it's possiable scouts simply won't be a thing. another thing is that scouts may simply be in differant roles. light support and clean up etc;

I mean I never liked scouts being rookies that seems like a disaster in the making. in fact it's notable that a scout screwing up was in fact part of why Rynn's world was invaded

^They are supposed to all be led by veteran sargents however.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^They are supposed to all be led by veteran sargents however.

So are all other Space Marines. All sergeants are veteran warriors.

I personnaly explain the fact that Space Marines uses their least experimented and worst members as recon and scouts, the polar opposite of any sane and competant military force, by the fact that they are basically knights. Most Chapters consider the idea of lurking in the shadows and sabotaging things as a dishonorable, perhapse even heretical as often associated with the mode of operation of Chaos cults, act. Thus they give this distasteful practice to recruits as a way to test their mettle and their faith. It's also seen as a form of hazing. Some Chapters differ from that point of view and don't consider it as such, but in their case, Scouts are confirmed Space Marines.

Since I fully expect all old Space Marines to be replaced, it make sense that Scouts are the first to go. Why train new Space Marines the "old way" instead of making them all into Primaris. It also seems that the Primaris Marines consider recon to be a task to be handled by veterans or at least confirmed Marines, not rookies.

it's hard to say, it could also be that Primaris use scouts who then graduate to vanguard (indeed the fluff in the vanguard codex seems to imply this), with the vanguard marines being used for the high importance/righ risk, missions.
as for the logic behind scouts, the best I can guess is that even by time you become a SCOUT you're a insanely well trained individual, so Marines are first deployed to the scout company to force them to learn stealth and evasion tactics, basicly to prevent them from developing a god complex in their armor and getting fragged the first time someone whips out a plasma gun

I just treat them as veterans or full brothers assigned to the 'light' company. There will always be a tactical niche for lightly armoured non-power-armoured skirmishers. They just swapped out their mk.x armour for carapace for this particular job.

I don't think we're going to see a full detailing of how a primaris chapter operates for awhile there's too many holes. and GW won't want to detail how a full primaris company interacts as they're heavily pushing mixed chapters rfight now

BrianDavion wrote:Deploying Marines before they get their black carapeice has always been optional to be honest, the Space Wolves for example don't do that, but rather deploy their newbies as blood claws. In fact this is proably smarter given that scouting can be a very dangerous thing (there's a reason why in reality forward recon scouts are if I recall right, a highly trained elite) so it's possiable scouts simply won't be a thing. another thing is that scouts may simply be in differant roles. light support and clean up etc;

I mean I never liked scouts being rookies that seems like a disaster in the making. in fact it's notable that a scout screwing up was in fact part of why Rynn's world was invaded

True. I considered them going straight to PA from training (Ala 30k style marines) - didn't remember that the SW do that in 40k. Tbh, I'm not keen on either scenario really. Scouts as rookies seems dangerous - entrusting the success of a mission to the recon of a bunch of (relative) amateurs. But scouts going straight to PA also seems rash. I think I prefer the Black Templar style of Neophytes being essentially squires - learning their skills on the job from a mentor.

Deadnight wrote:I just treat them as veterans or full brothers assigned to the 'light' company. There will always be a tactical niche for lightly armoured non-power-armoured skirmishers. They just swapped out their mk.x armour for carapace for this particular job.

I think that's how I'd prefer to see Scouts, coupled with the aforementioned Neophyte concept. In terms of the models though, with the advent of Vanguard minis, I can't see Scouts making the transition with their carapace armour intact.

BrianDavion wrote:I don't think we're going to see a full detailing of how a primaris chapter operates for awhile there's too many holes. and GW won't want to detail how a full primaris company interacts as they're heavily pushing mixed chapters rfight now

Yup. Bit frustrating in a way, for those of us who like to be fluffy in how we model/game, but ah well.

In my home brew chapter scouts are used as recon units and behind enemy lines observation. Never really taking part in the main battle. More kill team scale stuff. Avoiding combat if possible. Every time I used scouts in the past they all died. Not going to help recruitment that. So it makes more sense to me that they don’t get involved in the big scraps my 40k battles represent.

Am tempted however to use some of the new necromunda arbiters type things as some.

Andykp wrote:
In my home brew chapter scouts are used as recon units and behind enemy lines observation. Never really taking part in the main battle. More kill team scale stuff. Avoiding combat if possible. Every time I used scouts in the past they all died. Not going to help recruitment that. So it makes more sense to me that they don’t get involved in the big scraps my 40k battles represent.

Am tempted however to use some of the new necromunda arbiters type things as some.

I agree, scouts realisticly shouldn't be directly invovled in battle. or if they are they're doing stuff like calling in artillery, sniping etc. stuff that, if they do it might, should minimize their chances are enaging in actual battle. Unlike table top, Snipers on an actual battlefield tend to strike from a hidden position and book it. often times they're hard to actually find. snipers might be devestating vs a disorginized foe that tends to rely on a handful of exceptional individuals to provide leadership, Orks for example.

BrianDavion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
In my home brew chapter scouts are used as recon units and behind enemy lines observation. Never really taking part in the main battle. More kill team scale stuff. Avoiding combat if possible. Every time I used scouts in the past they all died. Not going to help recruitment that. So it makes more sense to me that they don’t get involved in the big scraps my 40k battles represent.

Am tempted however to use some of the new necromunda arbiters type things as some.

I agree, scouts realisticly shouldn't be directly invovled in battle. or if they are they're doing stuff like calling in artillery, sniping etc. stuff that, if they do it might, should minimize their chances are enaging in actual battle. Unlike table top, Snipers on an actual battlefield tend to strike from a hidden position and book it. often times they're hard to actually find. snipers might be devestating vs a disorginized foe that tends to rely on a handful of exceptional individuals to provide leadership, Orks for example.

That’s my thoughts too, though eliminators will be in most my armies cos they look ace. Love them.

In theory, the Vanguard Marines are much better from a logic point than Scouts. They still have their power armor to keep them fed - Marines are fed by their power armor, I doubt the same is true of Carapace.

I haven't seen any fluff suggesting Primaris Marines aren't going to go through the Scout Company process as well. One would/could assume the same process is followed as before, simply upgrading the upgrade process from scout to Marine.

Additionally, I like the idea (finally) that Marines will not forget everything they learned in the Scout company the second they don their power armor - and can still infiltrate, snipe, and so on in their power armor.

The way my homebrew works is the battle and reserve companies are like elite regiments now, paras or rangers type of thing and operate in task forces suited to each mission. The first company is reivers, infiltrators etc. Vanguard I suppose now, they operate more like tier one special forces. Added to a task force for specific tasks missions. The tenth is scouts, as I said above they are more of a support force, recon, calling in air support etc.

No need to change layout of battle companies as they have the standard line, fire support etc elements.

I'm really eager to see what Primaris "first company" units will be like. it's possiable right now that Primaris have yet to develop any specificly differant first company unit types, being too new to truely have long serving veterns beyond what's depicted as vetern intercessors.

I suspect they won't have a Dedicated First Company thing. If they were, Aggressors would have had white helmets. Reivers too. I mean Reivers are an elite on the shoulderpad as well as the codex... that screams First Company.

Breton wrote:In theory, the Vanguard Marines are much better from a logic point than Scouts. They still have their power armor to keep them fed - Marines are fed by their power armor, I doubt the same is true of Carapace.

I haven't seen any fluff suggesting Primaris Marines aren't going to go through the Scout Company process as well. One would/could assume the same process is followed as before, simply upgrading the upgrade process from scout to Marine.

Additionally, I like the idea (finally) that Marines will not forget everything they learned in the Scout company the second they don their power armor - and can still infiltrate, snipe, and so on in their power armor.

Carapace armor can be made with the tech to feed its inhabitant. The Tempestus Scions get nutrient gruel out of theirs.

Breton wrote:I suspect they won't have a Dedicated First Company thing. If they were, Aggressors would have had white helmets. Reivers too. I mean Reivers are an elite on the shoulderpad as well as the codex... that screams First Company.

Reivers are a part of the Vanguard marines. They are actually the most common Vanguard marine to be deployed, especially in non-vanguard operations.

Even with primaris the scouts are something of a proto-marine, they've crossed all the major milestones, but depending on the chapter not all of them. Its a proving ground role and its why despite being the most vulnerable they're used in what would be the most dangerous role.

As far as "elite" first company primaris go, they are already elite. They are for the most part their own company unto themselves and their in lies the problem with the idea of even-more-elite Primaris. With the exception of chapters composed entirely of Primaris, there really aren't enough of them in a chapter to form squads any more elite or specialized than the specialized units they have. Going by the proportion of "Veteran" and Elite units within a chapter, you're typically looking at the 1st company and maybe another company's worth scattered about the other companies of the chapter. 20% of the chapter are elite veterans. Primaris being a self contained force means despite being elite, non-veteran Primaris are all mixed in. If we take the Chapter wide proportion and say only the top 20% of Primaris are so "elite" you're looking at 20 Primaris. While Primaris all cross train and can adapt their armor to any of the different Primaris roles, among this pool of elite Primaris they will have favored specializations or roles that keep them from being in some sort of elite unit. Pretty much 10% of a Space Marines elite warriors and veterans are Sergeants. So really you have 10 Primaris available to build an "elite" unit of some sort. All Primaris know how to use the jump packed armor or aggressor armor... but in building an elite its the ones that are step above... A squad of 10, that's all your most elite Primaris in single unit... More reasonably if Primaris ever had "elite" units you're probably looking at some 3 model squads where the chapter has no more than 3 such squads. In my opinion the 3 model units like Aggressors and Inceptors already represent what are the standouts of the Primaris. They are elite in their specializations and there simply aren't enough higher quality Aggressors or Inceptor Primaris to form something even more elite.

Not that its likely to stop GW.

nor should it because the Ultramarines aren't typical of marine chapters. Masny Marine chapters (the blood angels, the crimson fists etc) have a much higher percentage of primaris Marines due to extreme casualty replacements