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2019/07/13 21:56:43
Subject: [Apocalypse] Collation of various rules issues, broken RaW, "oddities" and questions ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
If I concede, does my opponent still win the battle? What happens in a Team Game if one player concedes?
When "Chaos Boon", "Gift of Chaos", and "Bolt of Change" Command Assets say to replace a model with a CHAOS SPAWN model, does that mean any datasheet with the CHAOS SPAWN keyword?
Is it intended for detachments with units of 30 Ork Boyz to never be able to have a WARLORD?
Is it intended for detachments of Wraith Constructs led by a Spirit Seer to not generate Command Assets?
Are the effects of T'au Drones cumulative if you have two of the same done?
What happens if you use the "Demolitions" Command Asset on a terrain feature that is glued to the table?
What happens if the "Medicae Supplies" Command Asset requires you to remove more damage counters than the unit currently has?
How do Movement Trays interact with rules that require Base Contact?
How does Phantasm interact with Barrage weapons and units that are not in Line of Sight?
Do you have to prove you've selected a legal card when searching the Command Asset deck?
Do Gargoyles really have 6 attacks at 30 models?
Why do Chaos Spawn get slower at 3 models then faster again at 4 or 5?
0. Do I die lose if I am killed concede?.
Spoiler:
If I concede, does my opponent still win the battle? On a (slightly) more serious note, what happens in a Team Game if one player concedes (for whatever reason, perhaps they had to go home and take their models with them)? Does the entire team have to concede, or can the remaining player continue on?
1. QUESTOR TRAITORIS Faction Trait and Command Assets are non-functional.
Spoiler:
Apocalypse Field Manual, Page 53 wrote:[...]One QUESTOR TRAITORIS unit in the Detachment becomes a CHARACTER and so can be a WARLORD if they are the Detachment's Commander.[...]
Apoc_Datasheet_Chaos_Knights_web.pdf wrote:KEYWORDS
Throughout this section you will come across the <QUESTOR TRAITORIS> keyword. This is shorthand for either the INFERNAL HOUSEHOLD keyword, or the ICONOCLAST HOUSEHOLD keyword, as described below.
<QUESTOR TRAITORIS>
All Chaos Knights owe their allegiance to either an Iconoclast household or an Infernal household. Chaos Knights datasheets have the <QUESTOR TRAITORIS> keyword. When you include a Chaos Knights unit in your army, you must decide whether that unit owes its allegiance to an Infernal household or an Iconoclast household. If the former, then you replace the <QUESTOR TRAITORIS> keyword in every instance on that unit’s datasheet with INFERNAL HOUSEHOLD; if the latter, you replace the <QUESTOR TRAITORIS> keyword in every instance on that unit’s datasheet with ICONOCLAST HOUSEHOLD.
Keyword formatting included.
Am I right in thinking that since <QUESTOR TRAITORIS> is replaced by INFERNAL HOUSEHOLD or ICONOCLAST HOUSEHOLD, no unit is going to have the QUESTOR TRAITORIS keyword?
Remember, <QUESTOR TRAITORIS> (which is "shorthand for either the INFERNAL HOUSEHOLD keyword, or the ICONOCLAST HOUSEHOLD keyword") is not the same keyword as QUESTOR TRAITORIS. Is the faction trait meant to say <QUESTOR TRAITORIS>?
Likewise for their Command Asset Cards, they all state QUESTOR TRAITORIS and not <QUESTOR TRAITORIS>.
It seems weird for GW to not allow Chaos Knights to get traits or Command Assets in Apoc, but who am I to judge. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 10/10 would effectively employ a keyword system again.
2. When "Chaos Boon", "Gift of Chaos", and "Bolt of Change" Command Assets say to replace a model with a CHAOS SPAWN model, does that mean any datasheet with the CHAOS SPAWN keyword?
Spoiler:
The aforementioned Command Assets state, among other effects:
that CHARACTER is destroyed and replaced with a CHAOS SPAWN unit consisting of one model.
CHAOS SPAWN is a keyword, not a unit name. We're told to make a unit with one model, but no rules as to what that models characteristics or rules are. Note that the Chaos Boon card also has a result that states:
that CHARACTER is destroyed and replaced with a Daemon Prince model
which is the correct way to do it, so perhaps it's intentional that the Command Asset doesn't do anything? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Does this let you select any datasheet with the CHAOS SPAWN keyword?
3. Ork Boyz prevent that detachment from getting a WARLORD
Spoiler:
Not broken RaWper se but still odd. Ork Boyz (30 models) have a Leadership characteristic of 7. No ORK CHARACTER units have a leadership greater than 6. Therefore, any detachment that includes units of Ork Boyz (30 models) will never be eligible to have a WARLORD. Is this an oversight or an intentional rule to punish Ork players for taking 30 strong units of Boyz by lowering their Command Asset generation? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
3.5: Likewise for Spirit Seers and Wraith units
Spoiler:
Spirit Seers have lower Leadership than Wraith Constructs. Is this intended to force you to bring a different HQ?
4. Clarification needed on T'au Drones in general
Spoiler:
The rules for Shield Drones don't allow for Shield Drones to be cumulative if you have more than one, but the Warhammer Community article suggests they are. Which is it? After all, the Warhammer Community website is not rules and has been wrong about rules before. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Furthermore, the rules for Tactical Drones, while clear to me, are going to be confusing for a lot of people. You use any Drone models for the actual models in the unit, and then get to pick two buffs for every 4 models in the unit. The fact that taking multiple re-roll effects don't matter, and the Shield Drone isn't cumulative RaW, why are you permitted to take up to 6 buffs when no more than 3 will be effective?
5. What happens if you use the "Demolitions" Command Asset on a terrain feature that is glued to the table?
Spoiler:
As above.
6. "Medicae Supplies" Command Asset can cause TMIR to trigger
Spoiler:
Medicae Supplies Command Asset wrote:This Command Asset can be used at the start of the Action phase. When used, select one LIGHT unit from your army that has at least one damage marker next to it. Remove D3 damage markers from that unit.
What happens if the unit has 1 damage marker and you roll a 3? The rule does not say "Remove up to D3 damage markers from that unit" like "Revolting Regeneration" does (again, GW managed to screw up something they have written correctly elsewhere) so if you roll a 3, you must remove 3 damage markers from the unit and if it has only 1 on it, there is no way to remove 3 damage markers from it. Thus the game breaks and you're forced to use TMIR to resolve it and have a 50/50 chance of your opponent deciding you don't get to remove the damage markers.
7. How do Movement Trays interact with rules that require Base Contact?
Spoiler:
So, the rules don't mention movement trays and (I assume) are written without consideration to movement trays. However, if you are using movement trays, are you required to remove them if you wish to move models into base contact? What if the opponent is using a movement tray? Are you even permitted to use movement trays, or is it a case of doing so until they cause a rules issue? Even ignoring the movement trays, do the rules actually require you to physically touch one base to another? Is there any reason why this couldn't be a half inch wiggle room?
8. Malanthropes have a broken Monstrous Brood rule?
Spoiler:
Malanthropes have the Carnifex version of Monstrous Brood which refers to them as Heavy Support.
9. How does Phantasm interact with Barrage weapons and units that are not in Line of Sight?
Spoiler:
Phantasm Command Asset wrote:This Command Asset can be used in the Action phase, when an ASURYANI unit from your army is picked as the target of attacks with a ranged weapon. Before any hit rolls are made for the firing unit's attacks, remove that ASURYANI unit from the battlefield and then set it up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" from any enemy units. If that ASURYANI unit is no longer visible to the firing unit, or it is now out of range, it is no longer a target of the firing unit's attacks; your opponent can select new targets for those attacks if they wish.
Let's say I fire a Barrage weapon at an ASURYANI unit that is not in Line of Sight. They use Phantasm, and redeploy 0.001" to the left, still out of Line of Sight. Naturally, "that ASURYANI unit is no longer visible to the firing unit" and thus "it is no longer a target of the firing unit's attacks". That part is clear and not a problem. However, does "your opponent can select new targets for those attacks if they wish" mean they cannot re-target the same unit? After all, it's not a "new" target if they choose to shoot the same unit, it's the old target.
10. Do you have to reveal cards you tutor for?
Spoiler:
When using an Asset such as Magical Boon, which lets you take specific cards from your deck into your hand, do you have to reveal what card you are drawing? And if not, because hands may be kept secret there is no way to prevent the opponent from cheating.
11. Do Gargoyles really have 6 attacks at 30 models?
Spoiler:
Tyranid Gargoyles have 1 attack at 10 models, 2 attacks at 20 models, 6 attacks at 30 models. This seems... odd. No other unit gets three times the amount of attacks for taking the largest unit (to my knowlege).
12. Why do Chaos Spawn get slower at 3 models then faster again at 4 or 5?
Spoiler:
Chaos Spawn have a movement speed of 7"/7"/6"/7"/7" for 1/2/3/4/5 model units. This is weird.
This message was edited 28 times. Last update was at 2019/07/19 20:33:20
2019/07/14 13:12:07
Subject: [Apoc] Questor Traitoris faction trait doesn't affect any units?
Yeah, this is a clear case of RAW stomping all over the most likely RAI outcome. I can't say for certain, not being psychic, but I think the intent is clear - not that that matters past non-tournament games.
Why GW went for a keyword system when they struggle so much with writing clearly is a mystery.
Pretre: OOOOHHHHH snap. That's like driving away from hitting a pedestrian.
Pacific:First person to Photoshop a GW store into the streets of Kabul wins the thread.
Selym: "Be true to thyself, play Chaos" - Jesus, Daemon Prince of Cegorach.
H.B.M.C: You can't lobotomise someone twice.
2019/07/14 13:35:39
Subject: [Apoc] Questor Traitoris faction trait doesn't affect any units?
Lance845 wrote: Yup. They could have just given those 3 whole units 2 keywords. QUESTOR TRAITORIS and <QUESTOR TRAITORIS> and then it would have been fine.
This is what I think the best solution would be, give them QUESTOR TRAITORIS and change <QUESTOR TRAITORIS> to <TRAITOR HOUSEHOLD> in the PDF. Then they don't need to errata the field manual.
2019/07/15 02:24:47
Subject: [Apoc] Questor Traitoris faction trait doesn't affect any units?
liquidjoshi wrote: Yeah, this is a clear case of RAW stomping all over the most likely RAI outcome. I can't say for certain, not being psychic, but I think the intent is clear - not that that matters past non-tournament games.
Why GW went for a keyword system when they struggle so much with writing clearly is a mystery.
Some RAW people don't care even when the game designers tell them what they intended clearly.
2019/07/15 02:49:00
Subject: [Apoc] Questor Traitoris faction trait doesn't affect any units?
1) Yep, needs faqed. CHAOS KNIGHTS on the datasheets should be QUAESTOR TRATORIS on the cards. Since the datasheets are PDFs and presumably can be edited, I figure they should add the QUAESTOR TRAITORIS keyword on the card and get rid of CHAOS KNIGHTS - slightly more awkward but just in case the cards ever confuse anyone they should reissue the electronic doc.
2) I don't see this as any different from abilities that affect any keyword. You may select any one-model unit with the CHAOS SPAWN keyword, of which there are...three? Appearing in various indexes, sharing all stats except for faction keywords. So, if you're playing Thousand Sons, you probably want to be putting down Thousand Sons keyword spawn, while if you're playing Legionario Copyrighticum you probably want that keyword.
3) At first glance I thought this didn't seem intended, and I suppose they could FAQ the warboss to have LD7, but I do think the larger system of some units having too high LD to be commanded by some other units is intended to prevent the spike in usefulness that comes with a super low cost character in 40k. It allows 1PL cheapos like Archon Courts, Astropaths and the like to exist without making them strictly the best Warlords because you can just hide them behind stuff and generate cards for super cheap.
You can come up with plenty of situations that fluff wise "feel" strange - Spiriseers can't be the Warlord of any detachment that includes Wraith Constructs, as an example, or Masters of Ordnance can't be the Warlord of a detachment that includes Artillery - but I can see why you want to have game space for more support role characters who will rarely actually be a Warlord.
4) RAW they're definitely not. The blog is wrong pretty regularly.
5) I can't really come up with an example of a board game where you have to move and remove pieces that doesn't break down if you fix the pieces to the board. What happens if I glue any active game piece down and it gets destroyed, the rules say I have to remove it? "the rules for monopoly require you to move your piece the number of spaces on the dice when it's your turn, but I've SWALLOWED my opponent's piece when he went to the bathroom! Parker Brothers destroyed with facts and logic!"
6) Sure. I haven't checked the "modifying characteristics" section to see if there's a general rule against increasing your Wounds stat above the maximum but I'll assume it's not in there.
7) Given that the movement trays don't technically exist in game terms, and serve only to keep your models in coherency distance while you move them around, I guess you'd just be able to legally move over them. The best way to resolve it would probably be to just claim "wobbly model" as it is a place the model should legally be allowed to go they just can't be placed there. But I agree that the 1/2" engagement distance would have been better ala 2nd edition sigmar.
There is no general rule requiring players designate "Game active objects" and "non-game active objects". What happens if I put down a coke can in front of an enemy unit, or place my hand on the table in front of them as they go to make a move, and I refuse to remove it so the models can go where they should be able to go?
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2019/07/15 12:08:54
Subject: [Apocalypse] Collation of various rules issues, both broken RaW and "oddities" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
the_scotsman wrote: 2) I don't see this as any different from abilities that affect any keyword. You may select any one-model unit with the CHAOS SPAWN keyword, of which there are...three? Appearing in various indexes, sharing all stats except for faction keywords. So, if you're playing Thousand Sons, you probably want to be putting down Thousand Sons keyword spawn, while if you're playing Legionario Copyrighticum you probably want that keyword.
Huh, I never thought of it that way. I guess you can select any datasheet with the CHAOS SPAWN keyword. Scratch that one then (though an FAQ entry would be nice).
2019/07/15 12:27:13
Subject: [Apocalypse] Collation of various rules issues, both broken RaW and "oddities" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
the_scotsman wrote: 2) I don't see this as any different from abilities that affect any keyword. You may select any one-model unit with the CHAOS SPAWN keyword, of which there are...three? Appearing in various indexes, sharing all stats except for faction keywords. So, if you're playing Thousand Sons, you probably want to be putting down Thousand Sons keyword spawn, while if you're playing Legionario Copyrighticum you probably want that keyword.
Huh, I never thought of it that way. I guess you can select any datasheet with the CHAOS SPAWN keyword. Scratch that one then (though an FAQ entry would be nice).
Right, the two requirements are "CHAOS SPAWN" keyword and "one model" unit size.
Otherwise, I don't see how the wording differs from other summoning type abilities like the "Daemonic pact" card.
I will say for my own part here that the issue of "Character has a lower LD than many units" does seem to be FAR more common in the Guard and Ork codexes respectively than most others. There are some examples like Kroot Shapers typically not being able to command Tau units, Spiritseers and Warlocks not being able to command high-LD eldar units, and non-Patriarchs in the GSC codex not being able to command Purestrains, but it's definitely the most common with Orks and Guard.
In some instances such as Drukhari, what I thought were minor characters actually have no CHARACTER keyword, meaning they can never be a Warlord. The Court of the Archon and Beastmasters work like this.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/15 12:43:48
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2019/07/15 13:22:02
Subject: [Apocalypse] Collation of various rules issues, both broken RaW and "oddities" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
In terms of movement trays you can remove models from them at any point and should do so when the positioning could matter like combat or garrisoning terrain (where it doesn't so much matter the positioning but squeezing everyone inside a terrain piece).
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2019/07/15 14:32:25
Subject: [Apocalypse] Collation of various rules issues, both broken RaW and "oddities" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
When using movement trays, the models the,selves don't really matter, the trays would be the base footprint of the unit. So base to base contact would be touching trays.
213PL 60PL 12PL 9-17PL (she/her)
2019/07/16 00:18:46
Subject: [Apocalypse] Collation of various rules issues, both broken RaW and "oddities" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Blndmage wrote: When using movement trays, the models the,selves don't really matter, the trays would be the base footprint of the unit. So base to base contact would be touching trays.
Can I get a page reference for that?
2019/07/16 00:51:47
Subject: [Apocalypse] Collation of various rules issues, both broken RaW and "oddities" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Blndmage wrote: When using movement trays, the models the,selves don't really matter, the trays would be the base footprint of the unit. So base to base contact would be touching trays.
Incorrect. Movement trays are just that, trays to help move models faster. They have 0 impact rules wise in the game and do not count as any kind of "footprint" for a unit. Once you are in a position that no longer requires fast movement but more precise maneuvers, like garrisoning or getting into melee, you simply remove them.
2019/07/16 06:43:15
Subject: [Apocalypse] Collation of various rules issues, both broken RaW and "oddities" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Blndmage wrote: When using movement trays, the models the,selves don't really matter, the trays would be the base footprint of the unit. So base to base contact would be touching trays.
Incorrect. Movement trays are just that, trays to help move models faster. They have 0 impact rules wise in the game and do not count as any kind of "footprint" for a unit. Once you are in a position that no longer requires fast movement but more precise maneuvers, like garrisoning or getting into melee, you simply remove them.
What if you glue your models to the movement trays? The tray would be their base then, wouldn't it?
Bharring wrote: At worst, you'll spend all your time and money on a hobby you don't enjoy, hate everything you're doing, and drive no value out of what should be the best times of your life.
2019/07/16 06:46:03
Subject: [Apocalypse] Collation of various rules issues, both broken RaW and "oddities" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
When using an Asset such as Magical Boon, which lets you take specific cards from your deck into your hand, do you have to reveal what card you are drawing? And if not, because hands may be kept secret there is no way to prevent the opponent from cheating.
2019/07/17 17:41:53
Subject: [Apocalypse] Collation of various rules issues, broken RaW, "oddities" and questions ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Tyranid Gargoyles: 1 attack at 10 models, 2 attacks at 20 models, 6 attacks at 30 models?
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
2019/07/18 22:08:31
Subject: [Apocalypse] Collation of various rules issues, broken RaW, "oddities" and questions ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
-in forge world ork units there is often a weapon option called a rattla kannon which is worse in every way to any other weapons you can have in its place for the same cost. There is no unit it is balanced around unlike other head-scratcher choices like scatter lasers.
-the battle fortress is a hot mess. It has 2 pages with 2 different pl costs and one of its weapon swap options refers to a weapon it doesn't have by default and says you can swap it out.
-Shock jump Dragstas are worse at everything than all other buggies. In 40k they have bs3+. In apoc they forgot that so they're a dedicated antitank buggy that does less vs vehicles that n the generalist buggy and has 2 ways to explode itself.
-gretchin are damage dealing machines at 20+ models, and out damage boyz pound for pound by far. This is balanced by their pitiful defense but still hilarious.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2019/07/19 06:05:50
Subject: [Apocalypse] Collation of various rules issues, broken RaW, "oddities" and questions ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
-gretchin are damage dealing machines at 20+ models, and out damage boyz pound for pound by far. This is balanced by their pitiful defense but still hilarious.
They're defense is amazing actually.
6 wounds for 3 power is probably the best unit in the game for toughness.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
2019/07/19 12:34:19
Subject: [Apocalypse] Collation of various rules issues, broken RaW, "oddities" and questions ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
-gretchin are damage dealing machines at 20+ models, and out damage boyz pound for pound by far. This is balanced by their pitiful defense but still hilarious.
They're defense is amazing actually.
6 wounds for 3 power is probably the best unit in the game for toughness.
Damn, pointing them out, you're actually right. Pound for pound compared to something like Cultists, the only thing the cultists gain for double the power level is the ability to shoot at 24" (which does mean they will likely attack turn 1, so it's not nothing but still) and 1" of movement. I guess they have access to a bit more in terms of aura buffs, gretchins really only get the KFF, but still.
Versus something like plaguebearers, even though they have ignore damage 6+ and -1 to hit on a 30-man squad and the daemon ability to take 1 save on a D12, it takes a lot more concentrated fire to outright one-round the gretchins vs the plaguebearers.
It is way easier to try and kill them piecemeal, though. One small blast on a gretchin squad is a very solid chance at dealing 2 wounds, but the plaguebearer squad has a much lower chance of taking the initial wound or failing the morale.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2019/07/19 12:38:52
Subject: [Apocalypse] Collation of various rules issues, broken RaW, "oddities" and questions ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It's interesting the extra layers to a units durability in this.
2 successful wounds only ever deals 1 damage. Additional wounds is very powerful. The way that meshes with saves, cards, and protector units makes a lot of things that were complete crap in regular 40k very worthy of consideration in apoc.
There is a lot more to think about here.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2019/07/19 13:27:22
Subject: [Apocalypse] Collation of various rules issues, broken RaW, "oddities" and questions ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Lance845 wrote: It's interesting the extra layers to a units durability in this.
2 successful wounds only ever deals 1 damage. Additional wounds is very powerful. The way that meshes with saves, cards, and protector units makes a lot of things that were complete crap in regular 40k very worthy of consideration in apoc.
There is a lot more to think about here.
Well, the protector cards are the one area where gretchins don't really work at all. Unlike Boyz or some other units, they get very little mileage out of Go to Ground, Armor of Contempt, Telekine Dome etc. But that's still assuming you actually have those cards in your hand/deck.
The biggest counterplay to gretchins is the fact that they do pretty crappy damage in melee and have only 12" range and 5" move. If you're 18" away from gretchins at the start of an action phase, they aren't attacking you and they don't really want to Assault at you because then you can just melee them. They kind of rely on a mathhammer-y sort of napoleonic war scenario where everyone lines up in orderly ranks, closes to 12" of each other and starts firing away.
In order to make their dream scenario of advance 5" shoot at 12" work, they have to put themselves in the threat range of any melee unit with 9" move or more.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2019/07/19 13:34:35
Subject: [Apocalypse] Collation of various rules issues, broken RaW, "oddities" and questions ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah but I wasn't just talking about Gretchens. I am saying in general, apocalypses damage and durability have an interesting dynamic completely lacking in base 40k. There is more to think about and more going on despite having less actual mechanic in play (no strength v toughness or AP or invulnerable saves etc etc...).
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
2019/07/19 13:40:13
Subject: [Apocalypse] Collation of various rules issues, broken RaW, "oddities" and questions ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Comparing the gargoyle statline to term/hormagants, gargoyles get 1/2/6A whereas the others get 2/4/6A. I’d assume the gargoyles are meant to mirror the gants statline but there was a copy/paste error
On a (slightly) more serious note, what happens in a Team Game if one player concedes (for whatever reason, perhaps they had to go home and take their models with them)? Does the entire team have to concede, or can the remaining player continue on?
60PL 
12PL 
