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If you have the somber sentinal masque form. if a model is shooting at you and shoots its first attack thus slaying your model, you roll a 4+ and shoots back, kills the attacking unit, does the attacking unit resolve the rest of its attacks even though it is removed from the battlefield.

Any remaining attacks are not resolved when a unit is removed from the battlefield.

Thanks for clearing this up, my opponent really didn't like that his repulser died after only 5 shots at my unit.

 p5freak wrote:
Any remaining attacks are not resolved when a unit is removed from the battlefield.

do you have a source for this ? My opponent from that game still doesn't believe me .


Automatically Appended Next Post:
another examples where this may be relevant,

If a vehicle is attacked, and on the first of many attacks the vehicle explodes, slaying the unit making the attacks,
do you resolve the rest of the attacks ?

A model that is no longer on the board cannot act further in that game. No idea if there's an actual rule to quote on this one, but it seems to be common sense to me.

ya, my opponent seems to disagree,
As attacks are declared all at once, and it says to roll for each attack, it doesn't say stop if the model is no longer on the board.

Kind of the opposite of the whole removing models until there is no longer line of sight. The attacks still happen, even though there are no more valid targets, because, the attacks were already declared.

This also begs to question, what if only half the unit is destroyed in the middle of shooting ?
I assumed that in that case all the shots continue.

A destroyed model is removed and doesn’t make any remaining shots. It sucks for your opponent, but the rules don’t allow dead things to do stuff.

B.c you have multi profiles shooting multi units, when resolving attacks you must resolve then unit by unit then profile by profile. This is clear in the rules and FAQ's.

B.c how attacking sequencing works, you do all the the shooting to unit 1 before unit 2 or 3, if you become destroyed between unit 1 and 2 you can no longer do the order of operations as you dont have a valid unit to pick to making the shooting attack as they are not on the table anymore.

Where it gets tricky is if you are fast rolling attacks.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
B.c you have multi profiles shooting multi units, when resolving attacks you must resolve then unit by unit then profile by profile. This is clear in the rules and FAQ's.

B.c how attacking sequencing works, you do all the the shooting to unit 1 before unit 2 or 3, if you become destroyed between unit 1 and 2 you can no longer do the order of operations as you dont have a valid unit to pick to making the shooting attack as they are not on the table anymore.

What happens if you are destroyed between attack 1 and attack 2 on the SAME unit. . . That is what happened.

I told him not to fast roll because it was possible I would blow the thing up.

You have to resolve it unit by unit when shooting at different targets you can not fast roll those, the point of fast rolling to roll the same profiles at the same target together to speed it up.

In Step 4 (Resolve Attacks), it states that "Each time a model makes an attack, roll a dice." If the model is no longer on the field, then it can no longer make an attack. When splitting shots, you have to do Step 4 separately for each unit you target. And, if a model dies before it can start Step 4, then it cannot make an attack.

What about if you have 2 plasma Cannons on your vehicle, and you shoot an enemy while overcharging.

If you fast roll, you can shoot both. If you roll one at a time you might die on the first one and therefore not get to shoot with the second.

Weird situation where it is worse to roll one at a time.

 Stux wrote:
What about if you have 2 plasma Cannons on your vehicle, and you shoot an enemy while overcharging.

If you fast roll, you can shoot both. If you roll one at a time you might die on the first one and therefore not get to shoot with the second.

Weird situation where it is worse to roll one at a time.

If its at 2 different targets you can not fast roll both units, you have to do it unit by unit before weapon by weapon, you must resolve all attacks vs 1 unit before moving to the 2nd unit.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Stux wrote:
What about if you have 2 plasma Cannons on your vehicle, and you shoot an enemy while overcharging.

If you fast roll, you can shoot both. If you roll one at a time you might die on the first one and therefore not get to shoot with the second.

Weird situation where it is worse to roll one at a time.

If its at 2 different targets you can not fast roll both units, you have to do it unit by unit before weapon by weapon, you must resolve all attacks vs 1 unit before moving to the 2nd unit.

I know, I'm talking about shooting at the same target.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
You have to resolve it unit by unit when shooting at different targets you can not fast roll those, the point of fast rolling to roll the same profiles at the same target together to speed it up.

You have to resolve it unit by unit when shooting at different targets you can not fast roll those, the point of fast rolling to roll the same profiles at the same target together to speed it up.

Again, the problem here, is they are firing at the SAME unit, not separate ones.

He allocates 5 attacks all on my unit of 5 harlies.
He starts attacking the harlies, so he rolls his first attack.
the first attack kills 1 harly and right before it is removed from the battlefield it gets to attack back.
The attack kills the unit who is doing the shooting.
He reached step 4, he allocated the attacks, he did his first attack, his unit was slain inbetween the first and second of the alocated attacks.
So step 4 has been started on the unit, but was interupted after the first attack, even though 5 attacks were successfully allocated.

What about if you have 2 plasma Cannons on your vehicle, and you shoot an enemy while overcharging.

If you fast roll, you can shoot both. If you roll one at a time you might die on the first one and therefore not get to shoot with the second.

Weird situation where it is worse to roll one at a time.

Being slain from plasma specifically says it happens after all attacks are resolved.

Ah yes, you're right on that.

Similar situation to yours though, if you're fast rolling you make all those attacks. If you aren't, anything you haven't rolled is lost.

 Type40 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
You have to resolve it unit by unit when shooting at different targets you can not fast roll those, the point of fast rolling to roll the same profiles at the same target together to speed it up.

You have to resolve it unit by unit when shooting at different targets you can not fast roll those, the point of fast rolling to roll the same profiles at the same target together to speed it up.

Again, the problem here, is they are firing at the SAME unit, not separate ones.

He allocates 5 attacks all on my unit of 5 harlies.
He starts attacking the harlies, so he rolls his first attack.
the first attack kills 1 harly and right before it is removed from the battlefield it gets to attack back.
The attack kills the unit who is doing the shooting.
He reached step 4, he allocated the attacks, he did his first attack, his unit was slain inbetween the first and second of the alocated attacks.
So step 4 has been started on the unit, but was interupted after the first attack, even though 5 attacks were successfully allocated.

What about if you have 2 plasma Cannons on your vehicle, and you shoot an enemy while overcharging.

If you fast roll, you can shoot both. If you roll one at a time you might die on the first one and therefore not get to shoot with the second.

Weird situation where it is worse to roll one at a time.

Being slain from plasma specifically says it happens after all attacks are resolved.

Ah i see, then it is resolved weapon by weapon, if he has a weapon that shoot 12 shots and he kills 3 of them and you shot back with those 3, if he dies then it stops if not then he does the next weapon.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
You have to resolve it unit by unit when shooting at different targets you can not fast roll those, the point of fast rolling to roll the same profiles at the same target together to speed it up.

You have to resolve it unit by unit when shooting at different targets you can not fast roll those, the point of fast rolling to roll the same profiles at the same target together to speed it up.

Again, the problem here, is they are firing at the SAME unit, not separate ones.

He allocates 5 attacks all on my unit of 5 harlies.
He starts attacking the harlies, so he rolls his first attack.
the first attack kills 1 harly and right before it is removed from the battlefield it gets to attack back.
The attack kills the unit who is doing the shooting.
He reached step 4, he allocated the attacks, he did his first attack, his unit was slain inbetween the first and second of the alocated attacks.
So step 4 has been started on the unit, but was interupted after the first attack, even though 5 attacks were successfully allocated.

What about if you have 2 plasma Cannons on your vehicle, and you shoot an enemy while overcharging.

If you fast roll, you can shoot both. If you roll one at a time you might die on the first one and therefore not get to shoot with the second.

Weird situation where it is worse to roll one at a time.

Being slain from plasma specifically says it happens after all attacks are resolved.

Ah i see, then it is resolved weapon by weapon, if he has a weapon that shoot 12 shots and he kills 3 of them and you shot back with those 3, if he dies then it stops if not then he does the next weapon.

Is it weapon by weapon, or attack by attack, it makes a big difference ?
as attacks are made one at a time.

 Stux wrote:
Where it gets tricky is if you are fast rolling attacks.

No, because when fast rolling you do all attacks and all wound rolls before the enemy gets to do a single sv. The attack sequence doesn't get interrupted by the masque form. That way you can avoid this weird rule scenario.

 p5freak wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Where it gets tricky is if you are fast rolling attacks.

No, because when fast rolling you do all attacks and all wound rolls before the enemy gets to do a single sv. The attack sequence doesn't get interrupted by the masque form. That way you can avoid this weird rule scenario.

Attacks can be made one at a time,or,in some cases,you can roll for multiple attacks together.The following sequence is used to make attacks one at a time

in some cases you can fast roll, this is a case where you can not.
do you also think FNP saves for multi-wound models should all be rolled before allocating wounds ?

not to mention, why bother having abilities that specifically say "deal damage after all attacks are resolved" v.s. abilities that do not say that.

 Type40 wrote:

in some cases you can fast roll, this is a case where you can not.

If all his firing from a particular weapon was at the same target, he can fast roll.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

in some cases you can fast roll, this is a case where you can not.

If all his firing from a particular weapon was at the same target, he can fast roll.

Source ?


did you miss

the rules for resolving attacks have been written assuming you will make them one at a time

BRB pg 179

meaning the resolve attacks sequences goes from step 1 hit roll to step 5 inflict damage for each attack separately.
and it is in the inflict damage step that harlequin ability triggers ?

 Type40 wrote:
Source ?

Here:

40K Battle Primer Page 5 top right sidebar wrote:Fast Dice Rolling
The rules for resolving attacks have been written assuming you will make them one at a time. However, it is possible to speed up your battles by rolling the dice for similar attacks together. In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time,

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
Source ?

Here:

40K Battle Primer Page 5 top right sidebar wrote:Fast Dice Rolling
The rules for resolving attacks have been written assuming you will make them one at a time. However, it is possible to speed up your battles by rolling the dice for similar attacks together. In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time,

lol you didnt finish the paragraph.

... your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time, making saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate

so if I am alocating the wounds, making the saving throws, and suffering damage one at a time, when is my model slain ? before the subsequent attacks are fully resolved. As per the inflect damage step in the resolve attacks sequence.

If your going to quote a rule, quote the entire rule, don't just pick and choose the parts that are convenient for you .

I can fast roll when I meet the requirements of the fast dice rolls rule quoted above my post.

 p5freak wrote:
I can fast roll when I meet the requirements of the fast dice rolls rule quoted above my post.

Yes you can,

and then I will allocate wounds one at a time, make saving throws one at a time, and inflict damage one at a time, thus having my model removed for being slain before your other attacks are resolved,,, just like it says to in the paragraph you quoted.

 Type40 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
I can fast roll when I meet the requirements of the fast dice rolls rule quoted above my post.

Yes you can,

and then I will allocate wounds one at a time, make saving throws one at a time, and inflict damage one at a time, thus having my model removed for being slain before your other attacks are resolved,,, just like it says to in the paragraph you quoted.

Which of course does not matter as wounds have been tallied...

You cant just stop allocating wounds once you reach that step.

 Type40 wrote:
lol you didnt finish the paragraph.

... your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time, making saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate

so if I am alocating the wounds, making the saving throws, and suffering damage one at a time, when is my model slain ? before the subsequent attacks are fully resolved. As per the inflect damage step in the resolve attacks sequence.

If your going to quote a rule, quote the entire rule, don't just pick and choose the parts that are convenient for you .

I did not "just pick and choose the parts that are convenient"

The rest of the rule was not needed. That is why I didn't quote the rest.

You cant just stop allocating wounds once you reach that step.

there is no tallied wounds step,

are you interpreting

However, it is possible to speed up your battles by rolling the dice for similar attacks together

trumps

the rules for resolving attacks have been written assuming you will make them one at a time.

?
that some real RAPI (rules as personally interpreted) stretch XD.

I allocate them one at a time
then I make the save,
then I inflict damage.
for the single wound. pg 179

now, normally, we move on from this step,

I allocate my next wound
then make the save
then inflict damage.

now lets say this time my model is slain, before I remove it from the battlefield I get to shoot your attacking model.
I happen to slay your attacking model. I remove your attacking model from the battlefield.

can a unit that is not on the battlefield make an attack ?
The fast rolling rules do not ignore the attack sequence, they consolidate it for speed. because according to the rules
EACH ATTACK =
make hit roll
makle wound roll
enemy allocates wound
saving throw
inflict damage.
Repeating one at a time.

Just because you roll them at the same time doesn't magically make them happen at the same time, if you lose your attacks halfway through, you lose your attacks, you just rolled a bunch of dice for nothing.

you can roll "the dice for similar attacks together"
it doesn't say, you can "ignore that each attack happens one at a time and make attacks simultaneously" it only says you can roll them together to speed up battles.

 Type40 wrote:

You cant just stop allocating wounds once you reach that step.

there is no tallied wounds step,

are you interpreting

Good thing there doesn't need to be. Once you get to assigning wounds, you need to assign all the wounds in the wound pool (For lack of a better term).