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 p5freak wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Where it gets tricky is if you are fast rolling attacks.

No, because when fast rolling you do all attacks and all wound rolls before the enemy gets to do a single sv. The attack sequence doesn't get interrupted by the masque form. That way you can avoid this weird rule scenario.

Oh I agree with you. I'm saying it's tricky in the sense that you get a different outcome from fast rolling than you would from making the attacks one at a time.

Once the wounds are being allocated, you have to allocate them all, you can't stop due to some of the shooting models dying. I'm very much in agreement with this.

 Stux wrote:

Oh I agree with you. I'm saying it's tricky in the sense that you get a different outcome from fast rolling than you would from making the attacks one at a time.

Once the wounds are being allocated, you have to allocate them all, you can't stop due to some of the shooting models dying. I'm very much in agreement with this.

Yes, the outcome is different, and thats not fair. It should be the same regardless of fast rolling, or one attack at a time. A FAQ for clarification is needed.

 p5freak wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Oh I agree with you. I'm saying it's tricky in the sense that you get a different outcome from fast rolling than you would from making the attacks one at a time.

Once the wounds are being allocated, you have to allocate them all, you can't stop due to some of the shooting models dying. I'm very much in agreement with this.

Yes, the outcome is different, and thats not fair. It should be the same regardless of fast rolling, or one attack at a time. A FAQ for clarification is needed.

A FAQ for clarification is not needed. It clearly works and is not a "broken" rule.

The FAQ's tend to fix broken rules. This is not the case here.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Oh I agree with you. I'm saying it's tricky in the sense that you get a different outcome from fast rolling than you would from making the attacks one at a time.

Once the wounds are being allocated, you have to allocate them all, you can't stop due to some of the shooting models dying. I'm very much in agreement with this.

Yes, the outcome is different, and thats not fair. It should be the same regardless of fast rolling, or one attack at a time. A FAQ for clarification is needed.

A FAQ for clarification is not needed. It clearly works and is not a "broken" rule.

The FAQ's tend to fix broken rules. This is not the case here.

It would be difficult to 'fix' without breaking something else, I agree.

It would be fine if it used an Apoc style damage system!

 DeathReaper wrote:
A FAQ for clarification is not needed. It clearly works and is not a "broken" rule.

The FAQ's tend to fix broken rules. This is not the case here.

"dO i LosE if I coNCeDe?" kind of proves that trend wrong.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
A FAQ for clarification is not needed. It clearly works and is not a "broken" rule.

The FAQ's tend to fix broken rules. This is not the case here.

"dO i LosE if I coNCeDe?" kind of proves that trend wrong.

A single exception can actually prove the rule...

I literally said "tend to fix broken rules"

I wouldn't have any more wounds to assign, your unit is gone and what happens to any effects, abilities, or rules of a unit that is removed from the battlefield ? they are also removed from the game.

 Type40 wrote:
I wouldn't have any more wounds to assign, your unit is gone and what happens to any effects, abilities, or rules of a unit that is removed from the battlefield ? they are also removed from the game.

That is not how it works, when you fast roll you have a bunch (or group, or pool if you will) of wounds you need to allocate.

If you do not allocate them all, you are breaking the rules.

The rules on P. 5 confirm this.

40K Battle Primer P. 5 wrote:...If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls. Your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time, making the saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate.

Well, a model removed from the game "can not do anything or be affected in anyway" (transport rules, as the embarked model is also removed from the battlefield).

Your telling me, that this model, that can not do anything, or be affected in anyway, is able to resolve attacks ? isn't resolving attacks doing something ?

I am pretty sure if I do allocate them, I am breaking the rules. as then that removed from play model is doing things.

When fast rolling attacks and wounds already have happened, it doesnt matter if you kill the models who did the attacks and wounds afterwards. You cant make the attacks and wounds not happening that way.

 Type40 wrote:
Well, a model removed from the game "can not do anything or be affected in anyway" (transport rules, as the embarked model is also removed from the battlefield).

That is for models in transports. This is not the same situation so those rules do not apply.

Your telling me, that this model, that can not do anything, or be affected in anyway, is able to resolve attacks ? isn't resolving attacks doing something ?

Why can it 'not do anything, or be affected in anyway"? it is not embarked so those rules do not apply.

I am pretty sure if I do allocate them, I am breaking the rules. as then that removed from play model is doing things.

No, as you already rolled to hit and wound. There is nothing that says to go back in time.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
Well, a model removed from the game "can not do anything or be affected in anyway" (transport rules, as the embarked model is also removed from the battlefield).

That is for models in transports. This is not the same situation so those rules do not apply.

Your telling me, that this model, that can not do anything, or be affected in anyway, is able to resolve attacks ? isn't resolving attacks doing something ?

Why can it 'not do anything, or be affected in anyway"? it is not embarked so those rules do not apply.

I am pretty sure if I do allocate them, I am breaking the rules. as then that removed from play model is doing things.

No, as you already rolled to hit and wound. There is nothing that says to go back in time.

HIWPI is fast rolling all the attacks with the same BS and SvT and whatever wounds are generated are allocated and resolved. if the attacking model is slian in this process i'd still resolve the wounds that have already been generated, but the attacking model would be unable to make any further attacks with the rest of its weapons etc.

So in conclusion, the killed unit resolves the rest of the particular weapons attack.

Now to further the question,

Lets say you are fighting a unit of SM, 4 have bolters and one has a plasma cannon.
If you kill the model with the plamsa cannon before it gets to fire but after its targets has been declared. does it still get to fire ?
How about if you kill one of the models with a bolter ?

or does the unit continue with it's declared attacks if it is not totally removed ?

Same answer as before: a dead model can’t do anything - it’s dead. It has been removed and takes no further part in the game.

I see, will keep all this in mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What if this happens during CC
Do you finish resolving the CC attacks with the same weapon or is there a different interaction ?

 Type40 wrote:

What if this happens during CC
Do you finish resolving the CC attacks with the same weapon or is there a different interaction ?

Dead model is removed, and no longer part of the game.

 Type40 wrote:
ya, my opponent seems to disagree,
As attacks are declared all at once, and it says to roll for each attack, it doesn't say stop if the model is no longer on the board.

Kind of the opposite of the whole removing models until there is no longer line of sight. The attacks still happen, even though there are no more valid targets, because, the attacks were already declared.

This also begs to question, what if only half the unit is destroyed in the middle of shooting ?
I assumed that in that case all the shots continue.

You declare attacks a atones, but resolve them one by one. So if you are using something like that mask, you have to ask opponent to resolve attacks one by one.

Marin wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
ya, my opponent seems to disagree,
As attacks are declared all at once, and it says to roll for each attack, it doesn't say stop if the model is no longer on the board.

Kind of the opposite of the whole removing models until there is no longer line of sight. The attacks still happen, even though there are no more valid targets, because, the attacks were already declared.

This also begs to question, what if only half the unit is destroyed in the middle of shooting ?
I assumed that in that case all the shots continue.

You declare attacks a atones, but resolve them one by one. So if you are using something like that mask, you have to ask opponent to resolve attacks one by one.

You can ask, but they do not have to comply. If they are allowed to fast roll they can still fast roll.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
ya, my opponent seems to disagree,
As attacks are declared all at once, and it says to roll for each attack, it doesn't say stop if the model is no longer on the board.

Kind of the opposite of the whole removing models until there is no longer line of sight. The attacks still happen, even though there are no more valid targets, because, the attacks were already declared.

This also begs to question, what if only half the unit is destroyed in the middle of shooting ?
I assumed that in that case all the shots continue.

You declare attacks a atones, but resolve them one by one. So if you are using something like that mask, you have to ask opponent to resolve attacks one by one.

You can ask, but they do not have to comply. If they are allowed to fast roll they can still fast roll.

Fast rolling is optional rule that is to speed up the game and most opponent should allow you to use the regular rules.

FAST DICE
ROLLING
The rules for resolving attacks (pg 181) have been written assuming you will make them one at a time. However, it is possible to speed up your battles by rolling the dice for similar attacks together. In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then
all of the wound rolls. Your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time, making the saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate. Remember, if the target unit contains a model that has already lost any wounds, they must allocate further wounds to this model until either it is slain, or all the wounds have been saved or resolved.

Yeah, you're allowed to fast roll and your opponent can't stop you.

 Stux wrote:
Yeah, you're allowed to fast roll and your opponent can't stop you.

That is pointless argument, since you can also refuse to troll saves.
Fast dice rolling is to speed up the game, not to be abused to disallow use of a abilities.

Marin wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Yeah, you're allowed to fast roll and your opponent can't stop you.

That is pointless argument, since you can also refuse to troll saves.
Fast dice rolling is to speed up the game, not to be abused to disallow use of a abilities.

It's not abuse, it's just the rules of the game.

And that example makes no sense. The game says you roll saves, you have to do it. It says you can fast roll, so you can fast roll, the other player doesn't get a say in it provided you follow the rules for fast rolling.

 Stux wrote:
Yeah, you're allowed to fast roll and your opponent can't stop you.

100% this.

There is an allowance to fast roll to hit and wound under certain conditions. If those conditions are met then you are allowed to fast roll and there is nothing the opponent can do about it.

I do feel like the intent of the rule is that fast rolling doesn't trump the fact that attacks should be carried out one at a time, thus stopping the attacks that have already rolled hits and wounds, that aren't fully resolved.

however, I concede that the RAW is

Remember,if the target unit contains a model that has already lost any wounds,they must allocate further wounds to this model until either it is slain,or all the wounds have been saved or resolved.

Which states that remaining wounds must be resolved or saved.

So I concede that this is how it works.
Hopefully we get an FAQ clarifying this, and whether or not this is the intent of the interaction.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Yeah, you're allowed to fast roll and your opponent can't stop you.

100% this.

There is an allowance to fast roll to hit and wound under certain conditions. If those conditions are met then you are allowed to fast roll and there is nothing the opponent can do about it.

Reading this, I've just realized that you meet the fast roll requirements even when rapid firing plasma weapons on overcharge. I've always slow-rolled this to know exactly which models do or do not overheat, but i"m surprised that the rules will allow this to be fast rolled.

Aash wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Yeah, you're allowed to fast roll and your opponent can't stop you.

100% this.

There is an allowance to fast roll to hit and wound under certain conditions. If those conditions are met then you are allowed to fast roll and there is nothing the opponent can do about it.

Reading this, I've just realized that you meet the fast roll requirements even when rapid firing plasma weapons on overcharge. I've always slow-rolled this to know exactly which models do or do not overheat, but i"m surprised that the rules will allow this to be fast rolled.

Just because you fast roll that doesn't mean you don't have to keep track of which model is assigned which dice.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Aash wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Yeah, you're allowed to fast roll and your opponent can't stop you.

100% this.

There is an allowance to fast roll to hit and wound under certain conditions. If those conditions are met then you are allowed to fast roll and there is nothing the opponent can do about it.

Reading this, I've just realized that you meet the fast roll requirements even when rapid firing plasma weapons on overcharge. I've always slow-rolled this to know exactly which models do or do not overheat, but i"m surprised that the rules will allow this to be fast rolled.

Just because you fast roll that doesn't mean you don't have to keep track of which model is assigned which dice.

This.

You are allowed to fast roll, but it is on you as a player to ensure you don't end up in an unresolvable game state. As such if you want to fast roll plasma you need to still track who's dice are who's, whether that's by colours or some other method.

 Stux wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Aash wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Yeah, you're allowed to fast roll and your opponent can't stop you.

100% this.

There is an allowance to fast roll to hit and wound under certain conditions. If those conditions are met then you are allowed to fast roll and there is nothing the opponent can do about it.

Reading this, I've just realized that you meet the fast roll requirements even when rapid firing plasma weapons on overcharge. I've always slow-rolled this to know exactly which models do or do not overheat, but i"m surprised that the rules will allow this to be fast rolled.

Just because you fast roll that doesn't mean you don't have to keep track of which model is assigned which dice.

This.

You are allowed to fast roll, but it is on you as a player to ensure you don't end up in an unresolvable game state. As such if you want to fast roll plasma you need to still track who's dice are who's, whether that's by colours or some other method.

Makes sense. I've always just rolled it individually in the past and hadn't considered fast rolling in this circumstance. I'll start doing this with different sized/coloured dice!

Its in the fast rolling rules that the attacks are still treated as being 1 by 1, fast dice doesnt change that.....

 Stux wrote:

Marin wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Yeah, you're allowed to fast roll and your opponent can't stop you.

That is pointless argument, since you can also refuse to troll saves.
Fast dice rolling is to speed up the game, not to be abused to disallow use of a abilities.

It's not abuse, it's just the rules of the game.

And that example makes no sense. The game says you roll saves, you have to do it. It says you can fast roll, so you can fast roll, the other player doesn't get a say in it provided you follow the rules for fast rolling.

The real question is does the change of attacker state(degrading, killed) change the starting state of the attacker profile or the profile is changed after the end of all attack.
Led`s assume you fast roll 5 wounds, i`m not obligate to fast role my saves, on the 3 saves i lost the model and i kill the attacker, i`m stopping trolling dice because there is no one attacking me any more.
Fast rolling main goal is to increase the speed of the attack sequence and there is no reason to think it allow you to bypass it, like you are trying to imply.

Maybe i`m wrong, but i`m not aware of rule that force me to take all the saves from death model.