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All of the units must serve Khorne, if not strictly through the Mark of Khorne than at least in spirit (no psykers, no mark of slaanesh). I'm looking to make the most out of the limited options at my disposal. The idea is to make a list that would still be usable if a World Eaters codex were to be released.
World Eaters Battalion
Exalted Champion - Power Axe
Exalted Champion - Power Axe
This is the "ideal" Khorne list. It's not going to perform well on the tabletop but it's quite a spectacle the first couple turns.
If I were going to optimize it:
- Give a relic to one of your HQs, preferably the Khorne Lord.
- Give the Rhinos combi-bolters and maybe havoc launchers.
- Get rid of one Rhino and one unit of Berzerkers. There just needs to be more variety. Maybe replace it with a small detachment of Khorne Daemons for the deep strike. Or a Heldrake to tie something up downfield.
This is the "ideal" Khorne list. It's not going to perform well on the tabletop but it's quite a spectacle the first couple turns.
If I were going to optimize it:
- Give a relic to one of your HQs, preferably the Khorne Lord.
- Give the Rhinos combi-bolters and maybe havoc launchers.
- Get rid of one Rhino and one unit of Berzerkers. There just needs to be more variety. Maybe replace it with a small detachment of Khorne Daemons for the deep strike. Or a Heldrake to tie something up downfield.
I'm looking for optimization and anyway to clean it up.
What relic should I use? They're all pretty lackluster. The current plan for the lord is to babysit the dreadnoughts and provided rerolling 1s, though I'm not sure if that's the best decision tactically. The rhinos will be advancing for the first 2 turns and then charging into combat so I'm not sure how useful guns are going to be on them.
I was advised to take 5 rhinos for target saturation. Though 4 is not much less, the plan is to take 5 and make it to combat with ~3 of them. A demon detachment isn't the easiest thing to fit, I've used them before. It's 210 points for 30 bloodletters, which is only 12 points cheaper than the berzerkers and rhino. That leaves no room for the hero and then we're only talking about a patrol detachment, here. I could drop the cultists, though. I've taken 30, 10, and 10 bloodletters before, lead by a demon prince and herald, but I was not a fan. The herald does nothing as he's always out of range for the aura on the first turn and then they usually get blasted off the board. Plus, there's little synergy with the bloodletters and the rest of the army. The bloodletters don't arrive until turn 2 or 3 which means they're not assisting with target saturation. They do reliably drop down, assault a unit or two, kill it, and then die.
What is the point of "variety?" Last time I played World Eaters I had good variety and an army of things that were simply not as good as berzerkers. Smart opponents would kill the rhinos because the berzerkers posed the biggest threat. Now, I can't find any close combat units I want to field as all are inferior to the berzerkers. A Heldrake could work, but I hate the model and have yet to find a suitable alternative. i'm not sold on the idea that variety = better.
Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne!
Are you set on taking all world eaters? I think you'd be better served taking the Daredeos as alpha legion.
I'd make the bezerker squads 2x 9 man and 2x 10 man (to max out the capacity of the rhinos).
I'd also put the power fist on all the bezerker champions for a little anti tank.
Finally with the points of dropping down one squad of zerkers and a rhino, plus the cultists (you're not screening anything with this list!!) you could get some decent screen clearing, you could stick 7 mark of slanesh bikers in the alpha legion detachment and use endless Cacophony and veterans of the long war.
small_gods wrote: Are you set on taking all world eaters? I think you'd be better served taking the Daredeos as alpha legion.
I'd make the bezerker squads 2x 9 man and 2x 10 man (to max out the capacity of the rhinos).
I'd also put the power fist on all the bezerker champions for a little anti tank.
Finally with the points of dropping down one squad of zerkers and a rhino, plus the cultists (you're not screening anything with this list!!) you could get some decent screen clearing, you could stick 7 mark of slanesh bikers in the alpha legion detachment and use endless Cacophony and veterans of the long war.
8 is the sacred number, which is why they're units of 8. Plus, I can't afford more berzerkers.
I used to use power fists back when the dark apostle had the reroll to hit aura. They were decent, but I found that the berzerkers themselves were easily capable of destroying any vehicles they came across. I've had success with chainaxes against baneblades and knights alike (though the knights return to life!). Now, since I cannot reroll to hit, I'd much rather not take the power fists at all, though, it feels a little pricy to spend 5 points on a power axe that does nothing more than grant a +1 AP when compared to the chainaxe that's 4 points cheaper.
Yes, I fear that the cultists are not enough, but your suggestion of slaaneshi bikers is blasphemy. Do you have any other suggestions that do not spit in the face of the Blood God?
While making the dreadnoughts Alpha Legion is, strictly speaking, better I am not sure if it's what I want. From a fluff-point, the purpose of the dreadnoughts is to act as fire support for the berzerkers and in that regard they're intended to be belonging to my world eater's force. From a rule's perspective, though I could use alpha legion rules while considering them every bit as part of the world eaters army, I'm not sure that's what I want. Part of the purpose of the dreadnoughts is to act as an alternative target for the enemy to shoot at, instead of popping rhinos. Giving them -1 to be hit makes them a less worth-while target and I do want them to be shot at, not ignored.
I don't think I need more shooting to clear chaff. Clearing chaff is the primary purpose of the dreadnoughts so that my berzerkers have a clear shot into the heart of the enemy. I imagine they should make short work of any enemy chaff and have dakka to spare for larger threats in later turns, if they survive.
So, I have 13 cultists that are going to make a semi-circle around the dreadnoughts with a lord standing somewhere nearby, conferring rerolling 1s to hit. I'm hoping that between them, they'll pretend any unit from deep strike + charging the dreads, but I'm not convinced this strategy will suffice as they can likely get around the cultists. Alternatively, I am considering putting the lord in a rhino and advancing to combat, as is where he'd want to be. And then placing the 3 dreadnoughts not near each other so that it would take 3 separate deep striking units to tie them up. I'm also ready to leave a berzerker squad behind to guard the dreadnoughts in the case of an enemy with many units of deep strikers.
What exactly is glaringly missing from this list? Techsoldaten thinks it lacks "variety," which might be objectively true, but what strategic value does my lack of variety likewise lack? And small_gods, you recommend adding bikers to clear chaff, but I think maybe you didn't realizing the clearing chaff was the purpose of the dreadnoughts. You also say that I'm not screening anything with this list, which very well might be true. Do you have anything more you'd recommend I drop the cultists for? Frankly, I'd very much like to arm my champions with thunder hammers and plasma pistols, but I couldn't afford to do so without dropping the cultists and I think trying to squeeze as many screeners in there as I can would be better.
Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne!
It depends on what your likely to face and how competitive you want your list to be or if the fluff and enjoyment of playing is really important. If you want to run pure world eaters and have 8 bezerkers in each unit to please Khorne, then your list is already great. I'm talking from a purely competitive sense.
Your Daredeos are great and you want people to be shooting at your rhinos over them ad if they pop a rhino you've spent 74 points and you have some footslogging bezerkers. But if you loose Daredeos you lose your long range firepower, you stop being able to interact with aircraft and you take a decent chunk out of your anti tank capabilities.
If someone wants to charge your Daredeos they'll have no problem in shooting down 13 cultists beforehand or at least enough to open up gaps.
You really want to be shooting your butcher cannon arrays at tanks and elite infantry and you don't want your bezerkers sitting in no mans land killing off a few guardsmen. So the options for decent screen clearing are bikers, combi bolter Terminators and rotar cannon havocks. You could even stick some havocks in a rhino if you make space and then your not screwed over if you get a long deployment.
This is the "ideal" Khorne list. It's not going to perform well on the tabletop but it's quite a spectacle the first couple turns.
If I were going to optimize it:
- Give a relic to one of your HQs, preferably the Khorne Lord.
- Give the Rhinos combi-bolters and maybe havoc launchers.
- Get rid of one Rhino and one unit of Berzerkers. There just needs to be more variety. Maybe replace it with a small detachment of Khorne Daemons for the deep strike. Or a Heldrake to tie something up downfield.
I'm looking for optimization and anyway to clean it up.
What relic should I use? They're all pretty lackluster. The current plan for the lord is to babysit the dreadnoughts and provided rerolling 1s, though I'm not sure if that's the best decision tactically. The rhinos will be advancing for the first 2 turns and then charging into combat so I'm not sure how useful guns are going to be on them.
Got it.
For relics, I would normally say Axe of Blind Fury. But it looks like the Chaos Lord is there to babysit the Dreads. If he's not going to be in close combat much, take the Brass Collar of Bhorogaster.
As for the Rhinos, ask yourself what they do once units disembark. 10 combi-bolters could make a small difference in the game.
Kharneth wrote: I was advised to take 5 rhinos for target saturation. Though 4 is not much less, the plan is to take 5 and make it to combat with ~3 of them.
Interesting strategy. No feedback on this specifically, except to agree that there's not a big difference between 4 and 5. Not sure how critical this is to the success / failure of the list.
Kharneth wrote: A demon detachment isn't the easiest thing to fit, I've used them before. It's 210 points for 30 bloodletters, which is only 12 points cheaper than the berzerkers and rhino. That leaves no room for the hero and then we're only talking about a patrol detachment, here. I could drop the cultists, though. I've taken 30, 10, and 10 bloodletters before, lead by a demon prince and herald, but I was not a fan. The herald does nothing as he's always out of range for the aura on the first turn and then they usually get blasted off the board. Plus, there's little synergy with the bloodletters and the rest of the army. The bloodletters don't arrive until turn 2 or 3 which means they're not assisting with target saturation. They do reliably drop down, assault a unit or two, kill it, and then die.
Sure, not everyone enjoys playing a Bloodletter Bomb.
The reason for suggesting it was to introduce tactical diversity. As it stands, this is a "one punch" list - tons of Berzerkers backed by 3 Deredeos with Butcher Cannons. They both need to cross ground before they can attack.
Were I playing against this list, my strategy would be to destroy the Deredeos at range and tie up the Rhinos / Berzerkers midfield. My army would be deployed across my deployment zone to limit the effectiveness of melee troops. I'd deploy everything but screens along my table edge.
What might keep me from executing on this plan would be a disruption - Bloodletters, Heldrakes, Bikers, Obliterators, Terminators, etc would all be good in this role. They arrive differently and can close with my units faster. Let's say my forces are split into 3 different camps. Potentially, a disruption unit keeps one of those camps from focusing on your main force, allowing it to do it's job.
Then you have a "two punch" army.
Kharneth wrote: What is the point of "variety?" Last time I played World Eaters I had good variety and an army of things that were simply not as good as berzerkers. Smart opponents would kill the rhinos because the berzerkers posed the biggest threat. Now, I can't find any close combat units I want to field as all are inferior to the berzerkers. A Heldrake could work, but I hate the model and have yet to find a suitable alternative. i'm not sold on the idea that variety = better.
Well, play this army in a few games and see how you feel about Berzerkers : ) Or Deredeos, for that matter.
Like I said, this is an "ideal" World Eaters force. It looks good on paper, tons of offense.
But a skilled opponent will deny you the opportunity to attack anything for 2 or 3 turns while shooting up this list the entire time. Those Berzerkers will only be charging cheap screens that die / fall back to leave your main force exposed. The range on those Butcher Cannons doesn't go that deep into an opponent's lines, they are not going to be shooting up the biggest threats on the board. Some armies will be equipped to kill all 5 Rhinos first turn, others are going to be equipped to charge your Berzerkers with their own elite melee units. Some armies will just suck and your World Eaters will roll over them in brief, bloody games.
I mean, this would have been a good 5th edition list, I actually played something similar. Rhinos were more resilient, you could have closed a lot of distance reliably, you could have charged from a vehicle after it moved. 8th edition - all those things work against you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/18 17:03:26
This is the "ideal" Khorne list. It's not going to perform well on the tabletop but it's quite a spectacle the first couple turns.
If I were going to optimize it:
- Give a relic to one of your HQs, preferably the Khorne Lord.
- Give the Rhinos combi-bolters and maybe havoc launchers.
- Get rid of one Rhino and one unit of Berzerkers. There just needs to be more variety. Maybe replace it with a small detachment of Khorne Daemons for the deep strike. Or a Heldrake to tie something up downfield.
I'm looking for optimization and anyway to clean it up.
What relic should I use? They're all pretty lackluster. The current plan for the lord is to babysit the dreadnoughts and provided rerolling 1s, though I'm not sure if that's the best decision tactically. The rhinos will be advancing for the first 2 turns and then charging into combat so I'm not sure how useful guns are going to be on them.
Got it.
For relics, I would normally say Axe of Blind Fury. But it looks like the Chaos Lord is there to babysit the Dreads. If he's not going to be in close combat much, take the Brass Collar of Bhorogaster.
As for the Rhinos, ask yourself what they do once units disembark. 10 combi-bolters could make a small difference in the game.
Kharneth wrote: I was advised to take 5 rhinos for target saturation. Though 4 is not much less, the plan is to take 5 and make it to combat with ~3 of them.
Interesting strategy. No feedback on this specifically, except to agree that there's not a big difference between 4 and 5. Not sure how critical this is to the success / failure of the list.
Kharneth wrote: A demon detachment isn't the easiest thing to fit, I've used them before. It's 210 points for 30 bloodletters, which is only 12 points cheaper than the berzerkers and rhino. That leaves no room for the hero and then we're only talking about a patrol detachment, here. I could drop the cultists, though. I've taken 30, 10, and 10 bloodletters before, lead by a demon prince and herald, but I was not a fan. The herald does nothing as he's always out of range for the aura on the first turn and then they usually get blasted off the board. Plus, there's little synergy with the bloodletters and the rest of the army. The bloodletters don't arrive until turn 2 or 3 which means they're not assisting with target saturation. They do reliably drop down, assault a unit or two, kill it, and then die.
Sure, not everyone enjoys playing a Bloodletter Bomb.
The reason for suggesting it was to introduce tactical diversity. As it stands, this is a "one punch" list - tons of Berzerkers backed by 3 Deredeos with Butcher Cannons. They both need to cross ground before they can attack.
Were I playing against this list, my strategy would be to destroy the Deredeos at range and tie up the Rhinos / Berzerkers midfield. My army would be deployed across my deployment zone to limit the effectiveness of melee troops. I'd deploy everything but screens along my table edge.
What might keep me from executing on this plan would be a disruption - Bloodletters, Heldrakes, Bikers, Obliterators, Terminators, etc would all be good in this role. They arrive differently and can close with my units faster. Let's say my forces are split into 3 different camps. Potentially, a disruption unit keeps one of those camps from focusing on your main force, allowing it to do it's job.
Then you have a "two punch" army.
Kharneth wrote: What is the point of "variety?" Last time I played World Eaters I had good variety and an army of things that were simply not as good as berzerkers. Smart opponents would kill the rhinos because the berzerkers posed the biggest threat. Now, I can't find any close combat units I want to field as all are inferior to the berzerkers. A Heldrake could work, but I hate the model and have yet to find a suitable alternative. i'm not sold on the idea that variety = better.
Well, play this army in a few games and see how you feel about Berzerkers : ) Or Deredeos, for that matter.
Like I said, this is an "ideal" World Eaters force. It looks good on paper, tons of offense.
But a skilled opponent will deny you the opportunity to attack anything for 2 or 3 turns while shooting up this list the entire time. Those Berzerkers will only be charging cheap screens that die / fall back to leave your main force exposed. The range on those Butcher Cannons doesn't go that deep into an opponent's lines, they are not going to be shooting up the biggest threats on the board. Some armies will be equipped to kill all 5 Rhinos first turn, others are going to be equipped to charge your Berzerkers with their own elite melee units. Some armies will just suck and your World Eaters will roll over them in brief, bloody games.
I mean, this would have been a good 5th edition list, I actually played something similar. Rhinos were more resilient, you could have closed a lot of distance reliably, you could have charged from a vehicle after it moved. 8th edition - all those things work against you.
Then what would you use here in 8th? As far as I can tell, rhinos are more durable now than in 7th. In 5th everything was mechanized anyway.
Is the Axe of Blind Fury even good? I don't take it for the same reason I don't take Kharn - I'm not looking to butcher my own 18 pt models. Perhaps with the Lord's rerolls it's not so bad and again, I'm not convinced providing rerolling 1s to hit for the deredeos with 2+ to hit is really all that useful. I think the lord would be much better off providing ~24 berzerkers with rerolling 1s to hit. The brass collar is the back-up relic to be sure since it's quite useful and always terrorizes opponents.
Typically, once the units disembark, the Rhinos charge into combat to waste the foe's overwatch. Adding combi-bolter isn't the worst idea, it's a steal for 2 points each. I'm not convinced of the merit of the havoc launchers, though. I'm pretty confident, though, that no game will be decided by 5 combi-bolters so whether I spend those 10 points or not I don't think it'll have a noticeable impact.
So, as it stands I have 67 points to play with (cultists), which bumps up to 130 points if I drop the greater havoc launchers, too. The question, though, is what would be a better use of those 67 points, or the additional 63. I believe the greater havoc launchers will be worthwhile as they're sitting on powerful units. But what to spend 67 points on, I'm not sure. I can almost squeeze a unit of bikers in there, but I'm not sure how useful that'd be.
Your strategy forgets that there are scenarios involved. I've never had anyone set up at the edge of a table before. Last year I played a list that included 3x8 berzerkers in rhinos, a blood slaughterer, 30 bloodletters w/ denizens, 2x10 bloodletters, a demon prince of khorne, and a bloodthirster. I would reliably enter combat on turn 2 and only sometimes by turn 3 at the latest. I'm not sure why it'd be any different now, especially with 5 units of berzerkers. None of those units you've listed can close faster than my rhinos. My bloodletter bomb had always entered combat on the same turn as the khorne berzerkers; turn 2. A heldrake is an exception as I believe it can make a turn 1 charge, but even bikers won't be disrupting anything other than screens.
I'm not sure how my khorne berzerkers will be only charging screens when I've got 12 heavy bolters, and 3 greater havoc launchers shooting at those screens for 2 turns prior to charging. Not to mention that I have 5 units of berzerkers and they don't all have to charge out at once. The biggest threats are going to be dealt with by berzerkers as I've seen them do in the past. My berzerkers single handedly took down an imperial knight and nearly killed a stormlord or baneblade or w/e. The only problem that the berzerkers have is that they get blocked by screens, everything else they can reliably take down (except flyers). That is why I have the dreadnoughts. What I have seen in the past is armies with a handful of screening units, not an army (save Astra militarum + knights) and I expect that the dreadnoughts can clear screens in a turn or two, max. I would've taken havocs with heavy bolters, but the dreadnoughts already have that covered with superior aim.
What would an effective World Eaters army list look like?
@Small_gods, I am talking about from a purely competitive sense, too, but I will not forsake the spirit of a force in favor for a competitive edge. What I am looking for is optimizing effectiveness without sacrificing the essence of the army. It'd be easy to make a competitive list of Heretic Astartes, but then it stops being a World Eaters force. So, I'm looking for an optimal army list created out of a theoretical World Eaters codex akin to the Thousand Sons or Death Guard.
I disagree; the last thing I want shot at are my rhinos. The purpose of the Deredeos is simply to clear a path for the rhinos and berzerkers inside. I need my berzerkers not wasting time on screens and not being blocked from where they want to go because of the 3" rule. My berzerkers are my anti tank; they're anti everything except flyers and the occasional things that aren't good to kill in melee.
The purpose of the cultist screen is not to prevent the deredeos from being charge, it's to stop the deredeos from having some deep strike 9" away from them and then charge from there (or use plasma or something). Nothing is charging my deredeos without passing through a wall of rhinos with berzerkers inside, so it either needs to deep strike or to fly over. I'd be better served shooting the butcher cannons at guardsmen if it meant charging a leman russ with berzerkers than the other way around. Berzerkers make short work of vehicles.
Show me what this list would look like if you could do anything you want to it. I just can't see the sense you guys are making.
Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne!
The point is that there are lots of ways to play round zerkers in rhinos and if that's 80% of your list and someone has figured that out then you're in for a bad time.
For example if you surround your rhino in guardsmen (not hard with move move move) then you've got a rhino or four sitting around full of bezerkers that can't leave.
Or you block rhino movement with nurglings, scouts or any small units really and you will take 3 or 4 turns to charge.
Or you stand on tall terrain and don't leave any gaps to let mele happen.
Or you have monstrous tau overwatch and kill everything that charges in.
Plus zerkers can't fight flyers and aren't good anti tank. A unit of 8 (assuming the knight wiffs his overwatch) attacking twice with veterans will do 10.5 wounds to a knight. The knight then kills 5 zerkers when he swings back.
That's not to say that they're not good units to take, they definitely have their place I just wouldn't invest so heavily into them. 3 rhinos full of zerkers is enough. You can then mix in havocs, bikers, dreadnoughts (as you have done), plasma Terminators and even warp talons. If I was making a world eaters only list it would look like this:
small_gods wrote: The point is that there are lots of ways to play round zerkers in rhinos and if that's 80% of your list and someone has figured that out then you're in for a bad time.
For example if you surround your rhino in guardsmen (not hard with move move move) then you've got a rhino or four sitting around full of bezerkers that can't leave.
Or you block rhino movement with nurglings, scouts or any small units really and you will take 3 or 4 turns to charge.
Or you stand on tall terrain and don't leave any gaps to let mele happen.
Or you have monstrous tau overwatch and kill everything that charges in.
Plus zerkers can't fight flyers and aren't good anti tank. A unit of 8 (assuming the knight wiffs his overwatch) attacking twice with veterans will do 10.5 wounds to a knight. The knight then kills 5 zerkers when he swings back.
Well, last time I played World Eaters I had an all melee list with 3 zerker squads and my main issue was being slowed down by screens, which is why I've changed it to include some firepower to clear screens. In addition, with only 3 rhinos (that wanted to stay together for aura buffs) it did not take a lot of screening units to block them.
By taking 3 heavy gun platforms and 5 rhinos I am hoping to fix that issue in two ways. 1) With the firepower I can now clear screens and I would assume that the dreadnoughts can clear quite a lot of screens in a single turn. 2) With 5 rhinos of berzerkers I can reliably prevent being bogged down due to covering more area of the board. Ideally, with the dreads, I'd like to shoot the 12 heavy bolters and 3 greater havoc launchers at screens while I shoot the butcher cannons at flyers/vehicles, however, if the smaller guns do not suffice to take down the screens I will need to clear them with the butcher cannons. It all depends on the quantity of screening units that my enemy takes, but in the past I can't think of any foe that took enough screens that I couldn't deal with them with the firepower coming from the dreadnoughts. Now, regarding the rhinos. I plan to spread them out, unless the enemy is cowering in a corner or single group. It would take a lot of screens to block all 5 rhinos assuming they're not driving side by side, which I do not do precisely because they block each other's disembarking - I've had this problem in the past. With 5 rhinos, the enemy might screen a couple of them, but I'll have plenty of berzerkers left besides that. In a list where I have only 3 rhinos, if even 1 is blocked by screens I'm down a third of my offensive force. Assuming the enemy's screening units quantity remains the same (from list to list), they have a much harder time screening 5 rhinos than 3 rhinos and the fact that there are 5 makes is near impossible to block them all.
As for your examples, blocking rhinos with guardsmen is much harder than you claim. There's virtually no way to arrive at the rhinos soon enough that the berzerkers do not get outside, unless move move move has been changed in the last 12 months. You could slow down a rhino with a unit of scouts, but you'd need 5 units of scouts to slow the advance of all the rhinos and that's assuming the scouts survive a hail of dreadnought fire. I've been screened by small units before and it worked because I had no firepower and my 3 rhinos were a single unit. Overwatch can be an issue and in truth I've never faced monstrous tau. Zerkers cannot fight flyers, that's correct, but the dreadnoughts are designed to kill flyers with their special rule. I would surely suffer against a flyer heavy list, though most armies I see that take flyers usually have only 1 or 2. When I faced the knight I used more than 8 berzerkers and my largest unit fought thrice, not twice. His force contained a single knight and then many squads of guardsmen chained out in lines to slow and interrupt my advance. The guardsmen were a huge problem, but the knight was not. Of course, this was back when I was getting reroll to hit with my power fists and was granted the +1 attack for charging for my extra rounds of attacking.
I do really want those power fists back, I'm just worried they'll be poor without the rerolling to hit. Also, your list doesn't even have 3 units of berzerkers, it's all dakka.
Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne!
Kharneth wrote: Then what would you use here in 8th? As far as I can tell, rhinos are more durable now than in 7th. In 5th everything was mechanized anyway.
Is the Axe of Blind Fury even good? I don't take it for the same reason I don't take Kharn - I'm not looking to butcher my own 18 pt models. Perhaps with the Lord's rerolls it's not so bad and again, I'm not convinced providing rerolling 1s to hit for the deredeos with 2+ to hit is really all that useful. I think the lord would be much better off providing ~24 berzerkers with rerolling 1s to hit. The brass collar is the back-up relic to be sure since it's quite useful and always terrorizes opponents.
Typically, once the units disembark, the Rhinos charge into combat to waste the foe's overwatch. Adding combi-bolter isn't the worst idea, it's a steal for 2 points each. I'm not convinced of the merit of the havoc launchers, though. I'm pretty confident, though, that no game will be decided by 5 combi-bolters so whether I spend those 10 points or not I don't think it'll have a noticeable impact.
So, as it stands I have 67 points to play with (cultists), which bumps up to 130 points if I drop the greater havoc launchers, too. The question, though, is what would be a better use of those 67 points, or the additional 63. I believe the greater havoc launchers will be worthwhile as they're sitting on powerful units. But what to spend 67 points on, I'm not sure. I can almost squeeze a unit of bikers in there, but I'm not sure how useful that'd be.
Your strategy forgets that there are scenarios involved. I've never had anyone set up at the edge of a table before. Last year I played a list that included 3x8 berzerkers in rhinos, a blood slaughterer, 30 bloodletters w/ denizens, 2x10 bloodletters, a demon prince of khorne, and a bloodthirster. I would reliably enter combat on turn 2 and only sometimes by turn 3 at the latest. I'm not sure why it'd be any different now, especially with 5 units of berzerkers. None of those units you've listed can close faster than my rhinos. My bloodletter bomb had always entered combat on the same turn as the khorne berzerkers; turn 2. A heldrake is an exception as I believe it can make a turn 1 charge, but even bikers won't be disrupting anything other than screens.
I'm not sure how my khorne berzerkers will be only charging screens when I've got 12 heavy bolters, and 3 greater havoc launchers shooting at those screens for 2 turns prior to charging. Not to mention that I have 5 units of berzerkers and they don't all have to charge out at once. The biggest threats are going to be dealt with by berzerkers as I've seen them do in the past. My berzerkers single handedly took down an imperial knight and nearly killed a stormlord or baneblade or w/e. The only problem that the berzerkers have is that they get blocked by screens, everything else they can reliably take down (except flyers). That is why I have the dreadnoughts. What I have seen in the past is armies with a handful of screening units, not an army (save Astra militarum + knights) and I expect that the dreadnoughts can clear screens in a turn or two, max. I would've taken havocs with heavy bolters, but the dreadnoughts already have that covered with superior aim.
What would an effective World Eaters army list look like?
My original question was what kind of feedback are you seeking. "Effective" means something different for friendly and competitive games.
To optimize for friendly games - honestly, just run the list you designed. No better way to learn how it performs than putting it on the tabletop. You will have fun, there's not too many people who don't love playing against lists like this and won't take those games too seriously. Once you get a few games in, you will get a sense of how you need to optimize.
What really matters is the opponent. An unskilled player is going to make some mistakes and your Berzerkers are going to clean up. Against a skilled player, you are going to run into some challenges that will be instructive. Consider your local meta and prepare to face a variety of skill levels.
To optimize for competitive games - I laid out how I would defend against your army and consider that strategy to be conservative. Any skilled player will deny you opportunities for close combat and fight from range, this is just how I would play against you. Until recently, I ran a Black Legion gunline and regularly tabled melee armies by just standing still with all my units standing next to Abaddon.
The thing is, your list is fully committed to melee with no deep strike. Your opponent gets at least one turn where their entire army gets to shoot at you and you have no way to respond. The butcher cannons on the Deredos almost don't matter because they don't carry the bulk of the offensive potential. You don't have a serious distraction to allow the main thrust of your offense to get in and do their work.
This is the 2000 pt World Eaters list I play in competitive games. I consider it "effective," it's pure melee focused and designed to overwhelm an opponent's lines very quickly. The differences are that its optimized around deep strike and has a Khorne Daemon detachment. Collectively, my infantry averages 180+ attacks the turn they drop in and I have a lot of tactical variety due to the number of units deep striking.
In this case, "effective" means there's no obvious, reliable strategy to defend against the list and it can consistently deal with a variety of opponents. It wins about 50% of the time, which is fine for a list I play when I'm burnt out on Black Legion. The deep strike mechanic is very much a gamble for both me and my opponent. No matter how they prepare, there's always a decent chance they lose a third of their army in a single turn.
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) ++
Legion: World Eaters
+ HQ +
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour: Combi-melta, Mark of Khorne, Power fist
Chaos Lord on Juggernaut of Khorne: 4. Hatred Incarnate, Axe of Blind Fury, Bladed horn on Juggernaut of Khorne, Plasma pistol, Power axe, Warlord
+ Troops +
Chaos Cultists: Mark of Khorne
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Cultists: Mark of Khorne
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
Khorne Berzerkers: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. 4x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 4x Chainaxe
Khorne Berzerkers: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. 4x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 4x Chainaxe
Khorne Berzerkers: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. 4x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 4x Chainaxe
Khorne Berzerkers: Icon of Wrath
. Berzerker Champion: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. 4x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 4x Chainaxe
I don't like advice that suggests to just keep buying models until it works. I don't want 40 berzerkers, 5 rhinos, and 3 deredeos if I'm going to find out that I have too many. I'm not looking to sit on $1,000 worth of minis while I play games with a third of them. I'm here to figure out how to avoid unnecessary purchases.
Is your list even legal? It looks like way too much deep striking, assuming both units of 22 bloodletters are deep striking and the berzerkers are deep striking inside the claw.
Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne!
Kharneth wrote: I don't like advice that suggests to just keep buying models until it works. I don't want 40 berzerkers, 5 rhinos, and 3 deredeos if I'm going to find out that I have too many. I'm not looking to sit on $1,000 worth of minis while I play games with a third of them. I'm here to figure out how to avoid unnecessary purchases.
Is your list even legal? It looks like way too much deep striking, assuming both units of 22 bloodletters are deep striking and the berzerkers are deep striking inside the claw.
Good point... the last time I played this list, Tactical Reserves was still based on power levels. The points for these guys come in just over 1000, I'd probably have to swap the KAC for a couple Dreadclaws. Thanks for pointing that out.
Wish I could make suggestions more to your liking. My main point is that your army would benefit from incorporating multiple threats. This could mean different units, tactics, even detachments, there are suggestions in my responses. Happy to talk about any of them more specifically.
Given your concern about purchases, might I suggest you consider proxying the list you presented in a few friendly games? Not sure if anything I say is a substitute for firsthand experience. Neutralizing a full melee army is something most skilled players understand how to do, not sure anyone can appreciate that point without seeing it in action.
What would be a good composition for World Eaters terminators? Every fiber of me wants to equip them with x2 lightning claws for the extra attacks and knowing that rerolling to wound makes up for the low S4 attacks, but I feel like the advantage of the terminators is their combi-bolters (or combi-weapons). I know the combi-plasma build is popular, but it's kind of impractical as you don't get enough combi-plasmas in the kit. Still, what would be the ideal set-up? Do I need the guns on these guys or can they be 2x lightning claws with an icon of wrath hoping for a 9" charge? I'm just wondering what role they'd play.
I do have a number of terminators and bikers. I'm not sure what the bikers would be used for, either.
I'm considering breaking up the berzerker squads into different transports, such as dreadclaws or a storm eagle. I'm not keen on the idea of deep striking a dreadclaw because I know a failed 9" charge means death for the berzerkers, but I could fly them across the board or even deep strike and stall the disembark. Alternatively, a storm eagle with 16 berzerkers and an exalted champion with 2 rhinos with berzerkers and a champion and/or lord might serve as a nice variation.
If I drop a single berzerker+rhino squad, I can fit some terminators, perhaps also a small unit of bikers. Or I could take some dreadclaws or a storm eagle.
Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne!
