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So there's tons of ways to make Marines and Chaos Marines a bit more durable. Personally, I'd rather see all non-Primaris, non-Character Astartes Infantry & Bikes get +1W/+1A, but since that would basically require a new edition, or at least over half the current Codices being replaced, I'd sadly don't see that happening.

I previously suggested giving Astates a rule in the same way as Bolter Discipline that would give than +1 armour save outside 12" to represent them "tanking" oncoming fire by tilting their armour towards it: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/770704.page

But I've been recently thinking about a toned down rule that still gives Marines an armour buff for the same reason, but scales differently vs low & high AP:
Models with the Adeptus Astartes and Heretic Astartes keywords that are Infantry or Bike may reroll unmodified Armour save rolls of 1

So off the bat, Terminators get a bigger buff than Power Armour since they basically get to reroll saves vs AP0 (or AP-1 in cover). But this rule scales better than +1 armour because against AP-3+ there are more chance that non-1s will fail still, with no bonus.
This rule would make Marines in cover quite tanky against small arms fire, but basically the same against heavier AP weapon (as it should be)

Thoughts?

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This is an idea for sure. Personally, I'd like to see something that give Tactical squads (and maybe assault squads) a little love. I think they need to address tactical squads directly by granting them a special ability that other squads won't have. In my mind, that is as simple as allowing them to use their bolters against targets within 1", and dispensing with their bolt pistols. Maybe even allowing them to have those combat knives we have always heard of (for a +1 attack or an improvement to their AP for hand to hand attacks). There is no reason that standard scouts should be preferable to regular tactical Marines. They could also make the beta bolter rules only affect models in powered armor, so scouts (wearing carapace armor) wouldn't benefit.

Game needs fewer rerolls.

Instead these changes:

Marines treat damage 2 as damage 1. Only damage 2. 3 damage is still 3 damage.

Marine ignore the first -1 to hit of any target.

Martel732 wrote:
Game needs fewer rerolls.

Instead these changes:

Marines treat damage 2 as damage 1. Only damage 2. 3 damage is still 3 damage.

That only helps Primaris, Termies and Bikes, though. Tacticals would be even more crap by comparison.

Although if all non-Primaris Marines have +1W (so Tacs, Assaults, Devs = 2W, Termies and Bikes =3W), reducing damage 2 to 1 would be a great rule for 2W Primaris to have to keep them unique comparatively

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Yea agreed. The game already has to many rerolls, please don't add more!

I like the +1W and +1A option better.

I think the biggest issue with Marines is that they are supposed to be good at everything, but great at nothing, and instead they're just bad at everything.

I would like to see Marines given more rules for flexibility, instead of just a fix like "better ability to make saves".

For example... Give marines an "orders" like system, where they can buff their attack or defense. Off the top of my head, useful things would be:

Concentrate Fire - Bolters, Bolt Rifles, and Bolt Carbines get +1 to hit, and ignore cover.

Brace for Incoming Fire - Squad subtracts 1 from their ballistics skill, and instead adds +1 to their saving throws.

Grenadiers - Each member of the squad may throw a grenade.

Move Move Move - The squad can move in the shooting phase, and must advance. All rapid fire weapons become assault weapons, and the squad has a -1 BS penalty for this turn. So they hit on 5's as they advance.

These are examples, but I think it would make a lot of sense to give Orders to marines. It would make marine HQ's useful for more than just beatsticks or re-roll bubbles, and would give them the tactical flexibility they sorely need. Their codex is broken beyond a simple fix unfortunately, they need new mechanics to make them useful.

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Game needs fewer rerolls.

Instead these changes:

Marines treat damage 2 as damage 1. Only damage 2. 3 damage is still 3 damage.

That only helps Primaris, Termies and Bikes, though. Tacticals would be even more crap by comparison.

Although if all non-Primaris Marines have +1W (so Tacs, Assaults, Devs = 2W, Termies and Bikes =3W), reducing damage 2 to 1 would be a great rule for 2W Primaris to have to keep them unique comparatively

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I've moved on from tacs. I'm no longer interested in helping them. I eagerly await their removal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Horst wrote:
I think the biggest issue with Marines is that they are supposed to be good at everything, but great at nothing, and instead they're just bad at everything.

I would like to see Marines given more rules for flexibility, instead of just a fix like "better ability to make saves".

For example... Give marines an "orders" like system, where they can buff their attack or defense. Off the top of my head, useful things would be:

Concentrate Fire - Bolters, Bolt Rifles, and Bolt Carbines get +1 to hit, and ignore cover.

Brace for Incoming Fire - Squad subtracts 1 from their ballistics skill, and instead adds +1 to their saving throws.

Grenadiers - Each member of the squad may throw a grenade.

Move Move Move - The squad can move in the shooting phase, and must advance. All rapid fire weapons become assault weapons, and the squad has a -1 BS penalty for this turn. So they hit on 5's as they advance.

These are examples, but I think it would make a lot of sense to give Orders to marines. It would make marine HQ's useful for more than just beatsticks or re-roll bubbles, and would give them the tactical flexibility they sorely need. Their codex is broken beyond a simple fix unfortunately, they need new mechanics to make them useful.

Yup, this guy gets it.

 Kroem wrote:
I like the +1W and +1A option better.

As do I, but since that's the least likely change to happen, I can no longer get behind it. Giving Marines reroll 1s or even +1 to armour save rolls is a more feasible change to implement since it could be added the same way BD was added.

But I also agree Marines need more offense. That isn't supposed to be the point of this thread, but as always, here's my 2 cents about it:

Bolter discipline should have been +1 shot if:
-Stationary or -at half range or -Terminator/Bike/Centurion/Dreadnought/Hellbrute in ADDITION to be double shots at half.
So a Bolter Marine would get 2 shots outside 12" if stationary, or 3 shots (double +1) within 12"
Then give Astates Heavy Bolters a RF2 firing option (so 3 shots if stationary as now, or 5 shots within 18")
Next make Multimeltas Heavy 2

All those rules combined with some durability buff as I've suggested would put Marines are the top of middle tier AT LEAST, with some builds like Raven Guard, UMs and Deathwatch (which wouldn't need special treatment from Bolter Discipline using my suggestion) potentially being top tier

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I think ignoring the first -1 is pretty important.

Martel732 wrote:
I think ignoring the first -1 is pretty important.

I agree, but I wouldn't make this a Marine specific thing. Rather, I would change Alaitoc, Raven Guard, Alpha Legions and other similar attribute to be a cover bonus instead. Units with these traits should counts as being in cover even in the open, and get +2 if actually in Cover instead of just +1
Remove those traits interaction with other -1 to hits and you fix the overall issue of stacking penalties

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No more re-rolls. Hell no. Game is already overloaded with them (and it's a gak game mechanic).

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think ignoring the first -1 is pretty important.

I agree, but I wouldn't make this a Marine specific thing. Rather, I would change Alaitoc, Raven Guard, Alpha Legions and other similar attribute to be a cover bonus instead. Units with these traits should counts as being in cover even in the open, and get +2 if actually in Cover instead of just +1
Remove those traits interaction with other -1 to hits and you fix the overall issue of stacking penalties

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No no. They are a check on ig sorta. Making marines immune to the first -1 is another distinguishing feature. I WANT the penalties hurting other factions.

Meh, stacking -2 to hit isn't a check on IG so much, it's just really there to force IG to use allies to make up for it. There's a reason why nobody plays mono-codex IG, and Eldar Flyers are a big part of that reason.

I think changing power armour to 2+ instead of 3+ might work.

I'd be ok with this being a change for power armour from all units not just space marines. There would need to be points adjustments to factor this in, but it would make power armour great against small arms fire again, and would also discourage power armour form hiding in cover as it wouldn't provide any additional benefit.

Terminators would still get an extra wound and 5++ as they do now.

 Horst wrote:
Meh, stacking -2 to hit isn't a check on IG so much, it's just really there to force IG to use allies to make up for it. There's a reason why nobody plays mono-codex IG, and Eldar Flyers are a big part of that reason.

It keeps mono ig nonsense out of the meta.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aash wrote:
I think changing power armour to 2+ instead of 3+ might work.

I'd be ok with this being a change for power armour from all units not just space marines. There would need to be points adjustments to factor this in, but it would make power armour great against small arms fire again, and would also discourage power armour form hiding in cover as it wouldn't provide any additional benefit.

Terminators would still get an extra wound and 5++ as they do now.

They need covert 2 dam to 1 dam for primaris to ever work.

I'd be OK with Terminators having re-rolls or rolling 2 dice and take the highest as they are too expensive to take hordes of them, but you can fit a lot of foot slogging marines into a list!

Primaris by design have a lot of overlap with normal Space Marines, which is kinda restrictive as you want a tactical marine to be a monster on his own! I wouldn't mind a complete re-pointing and re-statting to make Space Marines as good as they are in the lore.

Aash wrote:
I think changing power armour to 2+ instead of 3+ might work.

Yeah, 2+ armour would be good, and 1+ for Termies, but the only way to implement that is to replace every single datasheet, which is a monumental task. That's why originally, I just recommended giving all Astartes Infantry/Bike +1 armour vs ranged attacks. It achieves the same affect outside combat, but doesn't require reprinting any datasheet (digital or otherwise)

Didn't know people were so averse to reroll, but fair enough. I'll go back to my earlier +1 armour suggestion

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The game has too many die rolls and FAR too many rerolls as it is.

Martel732 wrote:
The game has too many die rolls and FAR too many rerolls as it is.

I agree! If a similar outcome can be achieved without resorting to re-rolls then I'd be in favour of that generally.

Also I'd much prefer to reduce the number of special rules where possible (not just Space Marines) If the desired outcome can be achieved without adding special rules - usually by tweaking the core rules, or by altering stats, then I think it is much more elegant than additional special rules.

Admittedly this would need rewrites of datasheets etc etc, so probably isn't feasible to introduce via FAQ or errata, but It is something that could be implemented in the next edition. Its why I usually prefer the extra A or extra W or increased T over re-roll or ignore x y or z.

eg. I never understood the ATSKNF rule in 8th, the morale rules were reworked to such an extent that SM morale could be very effectively represented in game without it by increasing the Ld stat. Ld 9 for a SM in a 5 model unit would be preferable to Ld 8 and re-roll failed Ld tests.

EDIT:

Regarding the Treat D2 as D1, I Can understand it as short term fix, but I'm not in favour overall. Again, a special rule that adds complication to achieve a result when there are other ways to achieve a similar effect. If durability of 2W models is a problem, the game has too many D2 weapons, or they are too cheap/too readily available. Again, not easy to fix mid-edition, so as a short term fix I'd be ok with it, but If something like this was a a special rule when it comes around to the launch of the next edition I'd be disappointed.

Honestly, I'd suggest instead giving them:

Black Carapace: You may re-roll saving throw rolls of 3 for units with this ability.

This is mechanically the same as allowing re-rolls of 1... except that it only works against AP-1. This nerfs AP-1 weapons (which in earlier editions wouldn't have been able to scratch power armour's paintwork) against Space Marines, but means that high-AP weapons are relatively more potent against them. You could then give re-roll 1s to Terminators, specifically, to represent the fact that they're just that hardcore – or leave them with re-roll 3s, which still works against AP-1, and AP-2. It leaves AP-3 as the sweet-spot between their re-roll and their invulnerable save, but invulnerable saves + high armour saves are kind of screwed this edition, anyway...

Similarly, you could bring back the Boltgun's anti-light-infantry focus by changing its stats as follows:

Boltgun: Range 24", Type Rapid Fire 1, Strength 4, AP-0, D1, Abilities: Your opponent must re-roll successful armour saving throw rolls of 6 for wounds caused by this weapon.

Against 10 boltgun wounds, this brings Orks down from 1.6 saves to 0.3 saves, but only takes Terminators from 8.3 saves to 7.6 saves.

Durability isn't the primary issue, and I've proven this before via asking people to make a list to what Marines are less durable to compared to what they're more durable to. The issue is that armies can kill a lot faster than Marines can. You fix the offense, you fix the main problem of why you'd take Marines in the first place. Deathwatch kinda proved this.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Durability isn't the primary issue, and I've proven this before via asking people to make a list to what Marines are less durable to compared to what they're more durable to. The issue is that armies can kill a lot faster than Marines can. You fix the offense, you fix the main problem of why you'd take Marines in the first place. Deathwatch kinda proved this.

I kind of agree, which is why I also want HBs to get more shots (preferable RF2-3) and MMs to be Heavy 2.
I also wouldn't be opposes to all Marines (including Chaos ones) to be 1-2 of the firing models that DW have access to, say Kraken and Dragonfire.
GKs likewise should have access to Psybolt ammo for FREE, but make it a choice between +1S or +1AP

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Durability/pt is a more severe issue imo. DC are murderous, but never survive the opponents turn.

If lascannon devs lived, their damsge would reasonable. Instead, they are targeted and easily removed.

DW also have defensive tricks like ss and 2+ in the same squad.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Durability isn't the primary issue, and I've proven this before via asking people to make a list to what Marines are less durable to compared to what they're more durable to. The issue is that armies can kill a lot faster than Marines can. You fix the offense, you fix the main problem of why you'd take Marines in the first place. Deathwatch kinda proved this.

LOL deathwatch basically play statistically like marines under Gmanbuff (in fact they outperform their counterparts in most cases) vs their prefered targets - without having to pay 400 point GMAN tax. They STILL DON'T make it into the competitive scene much. 95% of marine units are at a bare minimum 20-30% overcosted. They have a few properly costed units but outside of levi dread with 2x storm cannons - literally nothing is OP except smash captains in BA (which reduce overall marine power because they aren't ultramarines or DW). When you are overcosted 20-30% both offensively and defensively you have issues.

Care to show your math, Xeno?

Martel732 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Game needs fewer rerolls.

Instead these changes:

Marines treat damage 2 as damage 1. Only damage 2. 3 damage is still 3 damage.

That only helps Primaris, Termies and Bikes, though. Tacticals would be even more crap by comparison.

Although if all non-Primaris Marines have +1W (so Tacs, Assaults, Devs = 2W, Termies and Bikes =3W), reducing damage 2 to 1 would be a great rule for 2W Primaris to have to keep them unique comparatively

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I've moved on from tacs. I'm no longer interested in helping them. I eagerly await their removal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Horst wrote:
I think the biggest issue with Marines is that they are supposed to be good at everything, but great at nothing, and instead they're just bad at everything.

I would like to see Marines given more rules for flexibility, instead of just a fix like "better ability to make saves".

For example... Give marines an "orders" like system, where they can buff their attack or defense. Off the top of my head, useful things would be:

Concentrate Fire - Bolters, Bolt Rifles, and Bolt Carbines get +1 to hit, and ignore cover.

Brace for Incoming Fire - Squad subtracts 1 from their ballistics skill, and instead adds +1 to their saving throws.

Grenadiers - Each member of the squad may throw a grenade.

Move Move Move - The squad can move in the shooting phase, and must advance. All rapid fire weapons become assault weapons, and the squad has a -1 BS penalty for this turn. So they hit on 5's as they advance.

These are examples, but I think it would make a lot of sense to give Orders to marines. It would make marine HQ's useful for more than just beatsticks or re-roll bubbles, and would give them the tactical flexibility they sorely need. Their codex is broken beyond a simple fix unfortunately, they need new mechanics to make them useful.

Yup, this guy gets it.

I like the idea of an orders system, and I think it has some serious value. The only issue I see is that unlike the Guard, SM are far more experienced and operate at a lower level of leadership. As such, the Squad leader would be the one issuing orders. However, this really doesn't help where I see major issues- namely that tac squads are rather worthless. Scouts are cool and all, but they aren't supposed to be the "go to" troops of the SM. Tac squads are. I think the beta bolter rules are a decent attempt, but they should be limited to models in powered armor (not Terminators or scouts- and maybe not even certain Primaris units either). But if they wanted to take it one step further, let Tac squads use their bolters against targets within 1", and give bolt weapons a rule that allows them to increase their AP by one at half range. This would give tac squads a much needed bump, and make close quarters bolter fire dangerous to light infantry (like it used to be). AS to the survivability, Think about being a lowly Guardsman on the field. There is a SM 100 yards away, you look through your sights, line him up and fire. Your shot (if you're good) has a good chance of hitting because the relative speed of the SM at 100yds seems slower. Now bring that armored gene altered super soldier to ten feet. Hitting that bastard is going to be TOUGH as his speed and skill are magnified at such close quarters. I can see anything ranged being directed at a SM at less than 6" suffering with regards to AP (AP-1 becomes AP0, AP0 become AP+1, etc.) to represent the SM turning his armor in the finals seconds or twisting out of the way as he brings his own weapons to bear. This would allow SM tac squads to get back to the business of closing with and destroying their enemies. They'd be better close in than, say, devastators, and effective and shutting down lighter infantry (imagine firing two bolt shots per Marine in the shooting phase while in close combat- with additional AP to boot). It would also help balance them versus scouts. To balance it further, only allow Imperial units in powered armor to move and shoot heavy weapons with that -1 to their hit rolls, and make heavy's a stationary weapon type again.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Care to show your math, Xeno?

Yeah he always makes the claim. He basically always assumes you get the Deathwatch reroll and Hellfire rounds will always work.

There's a point to the post though that kinda proves me right (offense being the issue), but Deathwatch are for sure a little more glass Cannon.

I don't think you can so easily disentangle offense/defense woes on overcosted models. Marines cost MAKES them fragile. Giving them MOAR dakka doesn't change this.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think you can so easily disentangle offense/defense woes on overcosted models. Marines cost MAKES them fragile. Giving them MOAR dakka doesn't change this.

Agreed, and making them more durable means they have more offense in later turns (because less models die).
You need to do both to make Marines both worth their points and feel like they do in the fluff.

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We are so far from fluff, that it's not a reasonable goal. We need to get to "not victims" first.