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Can a DW kill team activate this strat at any point during an enemy Aeldari flyer movement? For example, let's say you have a flyer boxed in to a corner by a deepstriking kill team outside of 9". The flyer has to fly over your unit in it's movement phase, can I wait until he is within 8" of my unit, then drop the strat and get auto-hits with my frag Cannon(s)?

 bullyboy wrote:
Can a DW kill team activate this strat at any point during an enemy Aeldari flyer movement? For example, let's say you have a flyer boxed in to a corner by a deepstriking kill team outside of 9". The flyer has to fly over your unit in it's movement phase, can I wait until he is within 8" of my unit, then drop the strat and get auto-hits with my frag Cannon(s)?

No, it is used "after your opponent moves an enemy AELDARI unit". "After" means "after", not during. That is, "after" the enemy has completed their move.

The rule is poorly written, as usual. When is "...immediately after your opponent moves...." ? Its certainly not before it moves, the word "after" means it has already moved some distance. But is moving 1.1" still immediately ? Or is it 0.1" ? I dont know, the rules dont say it. The stratagem should say something like your unit can shoot at the enemy unit when its picked to be moved, but before it starts its movement, or something like that.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No, it is used "after your opponent moves an enemy AELDARI unit". "After" means "after", not during. That is, "after" the enemy has completed their move.

Re-read the rule. Its says "immediately" and "moves", its not after the movement ended. But at which point is it still immediately ?

 p5freak wrote:
Re-read the rule. Its says "immediately" and "moves", its not after the movement ended. But at which point is it still immediately ?

It doesn't say during movement, it says after it moves. In English this means after the movement has completed. If it could be done during movement it would say "after the unit begins moving".

If so, why doesnt it say something like after the opponent has moved an AELDARI unit ? That much clearer than immediately after your opponent moves.

 p5freak wrote:
If so, why doesnt it say something like after the opponent has moved an AELDARI unit ? That much clearer than immediately after your opponent moves.

Because GW hire LSD Smoking Badgers to write their rules?

Bullyboy wouldnt have asked if it clearly means after the opponent has ended the movement of the flyer. He and i are interpreting immediately after your opponent moves that it could be during the movement.

 p5freak wrote:
Bullyboy wouldnt have asked if it clearly means after the opponent has ended the movement of the flyer. He and i are interpreting immediately after your opponent moves that it could be during the movement.

Just because it isn't "clear" doesn't mean you can ignore the rule. You just have to read and think about parsing it.

We are not ignoring it, we are talking about the right interpretation.

 p5freak wrote:
We are not ignoring it, we are talking about the right interpretation.

Except it's not the right interpretation.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
We are not ignoring it, we are talking about the right interpretation.

Except it's not the right interpretation.

Thats your interpretation, which is debatable

I’ve seen some vague and ambiguous rules. There’ve been plenty that are open to interpretation.

This is not one. This is angle shooting at its height.

I say I am going to move a unit. Before moving.
I am now actively moving the unit. During moving.
I have completed moving my unit. After moving.

You cannot claim that after an event is during it. By the very definition of the word after you must wait for the entire event to be resolved.

So, in english, "immediately after a unit moves" is exactly the same as "after the movement has ended" ?

 p5freak wrote:
So, in english, "immediately after a unit moves" is exactly the same as "after the movement has ended" ?

Broadly, yes. Though your second phrase is open ended and the first had immediately. If your second example was “immediately after a unit’s move has ended” then I would say yes they are the same.

 p5freak wrote:
So, in english, "immediately after a unit moves" is exactly the same as "after the movement has ended" ?

In the context of what is happening in the game, yes.

Move is a clearly defined game term.

see the first paragraph of 1.movement phase in BRB

you move each unit one at a time, its not done moving until it has completed one of the movement options, it can not be moved again.

Yes you are "moving" the model physically. But the rule refers to the game term.

If somehow it worked that way, the second you let go of your model and were not in the process of physically moving it, you would be disallowed to move it again, as you can only move once.

After movement, is after they have completed their movement option. i.e. normal move, falling back, advancing .

Man you guys made this a lot more complicated for me.... so does the aeldari flyer have to stop its movement in 12”? Before I thought as long as it crossed the 12” mark at any point I could activate it.

If you deep strike 9” by them, can they actually move without activating it?

It must finish it's move within 12" to allow you to use the Strat. It checks distance at the time you use the stratagem, which is after it has moved.

 Stux wrote:
It must finish it's move within 12" to allow you to use the Strat. It checks distance at the time you use the stratagem, which is after it has moved.

This

Check exact timings on all rules. After movement is after movement.
i.e. When the model is completely done moving for that phase.

have seen many people in big tournaments (including UK) not agreeing with you. They have activated the strat immediately when an Aeldari player moves a model if it began within 12" of a DW unit. This has been allowed in tournaments. The fact that the wording does not say after it has moved (past tense) really puts any of the above into question as that would be absolutely clear. After moves is open to any real point from when the player begins the movement of that model until he then selects another unit to move, IMHO. It is a terribly worded strat, and I would say that if it is after the movement is completed, it's a crap strat not worth 2CP and the -1 to hit.

I guess it would be best to shoot an email to the FAQ dudes.

I dunno, as long as you have 2cp open you have a constant 12"threat your opponent has to play around. Not to mention if something dares move into a range it can charge at you from. And it triggers after deep striking at that 9" range, seems like its worth 2cp to me.

 bullyboy wrote:
have seen many people in big tournaments (including UK) not agreeing with you. They have activated the strat immediately when an Aeldari player moves a model if it began within 12" of a DW unit. This has been allowed in tournaments. The fact that the wording does not say after it has moved (past tense) really puts any of the above into question as that would be absolutely clear. After moves is open to any real point from when the player begins the movement of that model until he then selects another unit to move, IMHO. It is a terribly worded strat, and I would say that if it is after the movement is completed, it's a crap strat not worth 2CP and the -1 to hit.

I guess it would be best to shoot an email to the FAQ dudes.

I disagree with it being ambiguous.

If it said "after it begins moving" sure, but it says "after it moves" which means the move is completed.

These tournaments have made a wrong call with regards to RAW, but that happens every day.

 Stux wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
have seen many people in big tournaments (including UK) not agreeing with you. They have activated the strat immediately when an Aeldari player moves a model if it began within 12" of a DW unit. This has been allowed in tournaments. The fact that the wording does not say after it has moved (past tense) really puts any of the above into question as that would be absolutely clear. After moves is open to any real point from when the player begins the movement of that model until he then selects another unit to move, IMHO. It is a terribly worded strat, and I would say that if it is after the movement is completed, it's a crap strat not worth 2CP and the -1 to hit.

I guess it would be best to shoot an email to the FAQ dudes.

I disagree with it being ambiguous.

If it said "after it begins moving" sure, but it says "after it moves" which means the move is completed.

These tournaments have made a wrong call with regards to RAW, but that happens every day.

It's weird that you are making a distinction between "after it begins moving" (which could mean immediately when it moves) and "after it moves" to make your point, but the same distinction applies between "after it moves" and "after it has moved". The latter is not the wording which would certainly make it after the unit has finished it's move.

Can we stop trying to make unambiguous, non-problematic rules into points of contention?

Because that’d be great.

 bullyboy wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
have seen many people in big tournaments (including UK) not agreeing with you. They have activated the strat immediately when an Aeldari player moves a model if it began within 12" of a DW unit. This has been allowed in tournaments. The fact that the wording does not say after it has moved (past tense) really puts any of the above into question as that would be absolutely clear. After moves is open to any real point from when the player begins the movement of that model until he then selects another unit to move, IMHO. It is a terribly worded strat, and I would say that if it is after the movement is completed, it's a crap strat not worth 2CP and the -1 to hit.

I guess it would be best to shoot an email to the FAQ dudes.

I disagree with it being ambiguous.

If it said "after it begins moving" sure, but it says "after it moves" which means the move is completed.

These tournaments have made a wrong call with regards to RAW, but that happens every day.

It's weird that you are making a distinction between "after it begins moving" (which could mean immediately when it moves) and "after it moves" to make your point, but the same distinction applies between "after it moves" and "after it has moved". The latter is not the wording which would certainly make it after the unit has finished it's move.

Again,

Move is a specific game term.
After it moves = After it meets the requirements dictated by the term.

Like after a model shoots does not mean trigger some ability in the middle of some models shooting sequence when ever you feel like it.
It means after it is done with the shooting sequence.
After this model fights, does not mean when ever you feel like it after a model starts fighting, it means after it is done with its fighting sequence.

This stratagem is pretty clear.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I can't just use Fire and Fade stratagem from the craftworlds codex at some random time after I have started the shooting sequence in the shooting phase. I use it after the shooting sequence is done for the unit.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Can we stop trying to make unambiguous, non-problematic rules into points of contention?

Because that’d be great.

But how would they manage to get multipage threads from it then? :

 doctortom wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Can we stop trying to make unambiguous, non-problematic rules into points of contention?

Because that’d be great.

But how would they manage to get multipage threads from it then? :

Let's compromise. We'll stop complaining when GW can write a single rulebook without errors.

Just to throw a monkey in the wrench:

What happens if the Aeldari unit moves OUT of range? Do you still get a shooting phase out of the strat, or do you only get to use it if it iis still in range after the unit has finished it's movement?

Because I agree with BCB, it's the END of the movement. Much like how in Chess the move is "counted" when the player takes his hand off the piece.

But in the realm of 40k, the spirit of the strat is that "OH HAE! THAT THAR BIKER ELF DONE MOVED! SHOOTS IT!"

I think you have to be able to declare this strat after a movement, but before any other action, because this could get tricky with lots of models.

You check to see if it is within 12" of a DW unit after the Aldari unit has finished it's move. That's what it says. So if the Aldari unit starts its movement within 12" of the DW but ends outside of the 12" then the strat does not work.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Is there any errata that says you HAVE to move though ? or is it still optional like it says in the BRB ? because you could also just stand still and not trigger the conditions for the strat.

I was all with the interpretation of afterwards until watching a BR and listening to a few DW tactica. The rule needs to be addressed by GW as moves and moved do not mean the same thing, regardless how many times you say it.
I have sent an email to the FAQ team to clarify as it does make a huge difference and really weakens the strat if afterwards (it's not like Aeldari flyers are hurting right now)