Poll |
 |
|
 |
Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 00:12:31
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
This question came up again and now that the edition is a lot older I want everyone's opinion. At the moment a Big shoota on an ork boy is 5pts and puts out ranged 36 Assault 3 S5 shots hitting on 5+. All of this on an infantry platform with T4 and a 6+ save that wants to be advancing most turns to get into charge range and for the most part the rest of the unit is armed with a pistol OR a ranged 18 assault 2 weapon. So the argument I have seen most frequently is comparing a Big Shoota not to a Heavy bolter, but instead to a Stormbolter, and of course, now that the Stormbolter has effectively doubled its shot output with the new bolter rule its an even better comparison. The Stormbolter is a 2pt upgrade which puts out 4 S4 shots at 24' hitting on 3s. So 1 more shot at 2/3rds the range and 1 less strength, however it hits twice as often. A Big Shoota will hit about 1 shot a turn compared to a Storm bolters 2.6.
So the argument boils down to what is the appropriate cost for this weapon. I would argue its somewhere between 1 and 2pts but definitely not any higher due to how poor its performance in general is. Another apt comparison is the Adeptus Mechanicus Cognis Heavy Stubber which is a Heavy 3 Range 36 S4 weapon that hits on 3s. This does very comparable damage to a Big shoota, however its 2pts not 5.
A Stormbolter Vs T4 model with a 4+ save ends up doing .66 dmg
A Cognis Heavy Stubber does .5 but at 33% more range
A Big Shoota does .33 at the same range as the Stubber.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 00:27:14
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
Walking Dead Wraithlord
|
Caveat being I don't know orks. Is the bg shoota only going on boys or does it go on other things as well? I think one of the problems with balancing points is when you price a piece of war gear in a vacuum i.e. Not taking account what its going on within the codex. E.g. Should a heavy weapon going on a T3 squaddie cost the same as an equivalent weapon going on a T8 war machine with lots of wounds, a better BS and an invuln?
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/23 00:28:28
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 00:46:13
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker
|
2pts would be about right.
|
01001000 01100001 01101001 01101100 00100000 01101111 01110101 01110010 00100000 01001110 01100101 01100011 01110010 01101111 01101110 00100000 01101111 01110110 01100101 01110010 01101100 01101111 01110010 01100100 01110011 00100001 |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 00:53:41
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
Committed Chaos Cult Marine
|
The whole unit is 7 points in Kill Team (Ork Gunner 7pts, Big Shoota 0 points). A game that penalizes ranged attacks to hit with range and cover. At the same time, Special/Heavy weapons are generally under cost. Just the same, I often take a Ork Gunner with a Big Shoota or two since they are only an extra point over a regular boy and I use the Clan Kultur: Bad Moons. I think that is an acceptable price in Kill Team.
Not knowing Orks in full 40k, I would say the weapon Big Shoota is probably worth about 3-5 points of the top of my head. Unlike in Kill Team, Orks won't be hitting on 6 more often than not and the Big Shoota can't be directly targeted having a bunch of Boyz soaking damage to keep it on the table. I also imagine the Bad Moons Clan Kultur works a lot better in full 40k if Orks have pretty much the same Stratagems equilvents to Kill Team tactics.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 01:12:16
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
Dakka Veteran
Australia
|
1 Point. It is objectively worse than a Storm Bolter, and on a weaker chassis.
Edit: At the current Cost big shootas should get something along the lines of "+1 to hit while within half range"
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/23 01:13:25
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 01:35:18
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel
Douglasville, GA
|
Big Shootaz are probably priced fine for most units that take them. They just don't work well in a Boy Blob. Maximum of 3 in a 30 man unit just isn't enough firepower to be worth the 15pt pricetag. Not when the rest of the unit is trying to Move and Advance to get into range with its guns, or into charging range, anyway. I think the best solution would be to make them an upgrade every model in the Mob could take. Even at 5 points a pop. That'd be 360 points for 30 Boyz who can throw out 90 S5 shots at 36", hitting on 5s (4s with Freebooterz Trait procced, or rerolling 1s with Badmoons). A lot of dice, but certainly not broken for the pricetag, and especially fragile on a T4, 6+ chassis.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 03:33:10
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
Norn Queen
|
Eonfuzz wrote:1 Point. It is objectively worse than a Storm Bolter, and on a weaker chassis.
Edit: At the current Cost big shootas should get something along the lines of "+1 to hit while within half range"
Just make them rapid fire 2
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 07:22:10
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
|
The big shoota itself is fine.
It's just that the carriers suck for it. Well for the use of it.
It also has the issue of not beeing easily saturated in a regular boy squad.
|
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 08:11:27
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard
|
SemperMortis wrote:This question came up again and now that the edition is a lot older I want everyone's opinion. At the moment a Big shoota on an ork boy is 5pts and puts out ranged 36 Assault 3 S5 shots hitting on 5+. All of this on an infantry platform with T4 and a 6+ save that wants to be advancing most turns to get into charge range and for the most part the rest of the unit is armed with a pistol OR a ranged 18 assault 2 weapon. So the argument I have seen most frequently is comparing a Big Shoota not to a Heavy bolter, but instead to a Stormbolter, and of course, now that the Stormbolter has effectively doubled its shot output with the new bolter rule its an even better comparison. The Stormbolter is a 2pt upgrade which puts out 4 S4 shots at 24' hitting on 3s. So 1 more shot at 2/3rds the range and 1 less strength, however it hits twice as often. A Big Shoota will hit about 1 shot a turn compared to a Storm bolters 2.6.
So the argument boils down to what is the appropriate cost for this weapon. I would argue its somewhere between 1 and 2pts but definitely not any higher due to how poor its performance in general is. Another apt comparison is the Adeptus Mechanicus Cognis Heavy Stubber which is a Heavy 3 Range 36 S4 weapon that hits on 3s. This does very comparable damage to a Big shoota, however its 2pts not 5.
A Stormbolter Vs T4 model with a 4+ save ends up doing .66 dmg
A Cognis Heavy Stubber does .5 but at 33% more range
A Big Shoota does .33 at the same range as the Stubber.
The Storm Bolter didn't double it's shooting. The Storm- (Hurricane- , Combi-, etc) bolter on the tanks didn't get Beta Bolter. Beta Bolter - as it's aimed at Bikes/Dreads/Infantry - is designed to boost the Cost-Benefit of the Marine, not the storm bolter. Which isn't to say the Big Shoota may or may not be overpriced, just that Beta Bolter isn't the stick to beat that point home with. Beta Bolter might be a stick to beat home the idea boys carrying Big Shootas should get a Beta Big Shoota rule.
The Cognis Heavy Stubber hits on 3's? It's heavy, does that include when it moves and fires?
I know Big Shootas show up on the Jets, the Killa Kans, and I don't know what else. The Big Shoota is Assault for an Assaulty unit not Rapid Fire for a Maybe Assaulty Unit, not that Rapid Fire prevents assault anymore though there is still an assault phase interaction, and that may be a remnant causing the overcosting - if it is overcosted - and should be taken into consideration.
Grots get Surprisingly Dangerous in Large Numbers. Do any units that can take Big Shootas get a similar rule for the shooting phase that could affect Big Shoota output? Which also doesn't mean the price is right, just that if it isn't the solution might not be the price but a rule for boyz mobs with big shootas, or a price change, and/or a rule change for the other units to make up for a price change.
The Auto Bolt Rifle is 24" A2 S4 AP0 and 1 point. So IF the Auto Bolt Rifle is priced correctly (and it's probably not, especially after Beta Bolter applying to the only units that can take it) 1 point for a Big Shoota would be low.
|
My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 08:16:24
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
Raging-on-the-Inside Blood Angel Sergeant
|
The problem is that you are trying to price things up via comparison with other codexs, this doesn't work.
Listing that an ork has poor balistic skill and a T-shirt save as reasons for their equipment costing less than a space marines similar equipment doesn't really work. The space marine has already paid a high cost for his BS and armour and shouldn't then have to pay an additional cost for a gun just by having them.
No one knows what formular GW uses to cost stuff (if they do at all) but it likely includes some sort of flavour modifier.
What I mean by that is that things that fit the flavour of an army are likely easier for them to get hold of. I.E. Tau close combat options are limited and expensive but the same thing in Chaos could be priced more competitively.
Similarly for Orks, their ranged option are likely to not be costed the same as guard equipment.
A better way to get a fair price for a big shoota (if you think they are to costly atm - as I do) is to compare it to other options in the same codex that you do think are competitively priced.
Lets say a Kustom Shoota at 2pts, I think that's a fair price point, a big shoota is certainly better than that, perhaps twice as good so 4pts would seem pretty fair.
Remember the pricing model where you pay the same points no matter which model takes the weapon means that some option are far less attractive on certain units. The big shoota with its excellent range isn't too useful on a boys unit that is heading for the enemy but on a fire support battle wagon they are much better.
|
40,000pts
8,000pts
3,000pts
3,000pts
6,000pts
2,000pts
1,000pts
:deathwatch: 3,000pts
:Imperial Knights: 2,000pts
:Custodes: 4,000pts |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 08:39:00
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
Irked Necron Immortal
|
I'd say 3-4pts.
1-2 would just make it an auto-take.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 10:34:24
Subject: Re:What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon
|
Maybe 0pts? I dont see it adding much value, so maybe 2pts or similar would be fair, but in the grand scheme such a tiny cost just seems redundant. If it's free you either take it, ignore it or pay the points to get something wich can make a dent in things (like rokkits or kmb)
|
Brutal, but kunning! |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 10:43:00
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
Dakka Veteran
|
2 Points, on par with a Heavy Stubber being 2 pts on a BS4+ platform
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 11:56:21
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk
|
Argive wrote:E.g. Should a heavy weapon going on a T3 squaddie cost the same as an equivalent weapon going on a T8 war machine with lots of wounds, a better BS and an invuln?
Big shoota is basically the default hull gun on most vehicles, like trukk, battlewagon, planes, buggies and walkers. Koptas and kanz can have dedicated big shoota units, but neither sees a lot of play even with It's basically the ork version of the heavy stubber. A few of those have grot gunners to make them hit on 4+, but all of them would be better off by just dropping the shootas and costing less points. Big shoota are basically a tax to tone down units like nauts or scrapjets in exchange for some random shooting. Automatically Appended Next Post: Breton wrote:Grots get Surprisingly Dangerous in Large Numbers. Do any units that can take Big Shootas get a similar rule for the shooting phase that could affect Big Shoota output? Which also doesn't mean the price is right, just that if it isn't the solution might not be the price but a rule for boyz mobs with big shootas, or a price change, and/or a rule change for the other units to make up for a price change.
4+ on the two bommers, scrapjet, boomdakka snazzwagon and kanz. 5+ everywhere else. Automatically Appended Next Post: WisdomLS wrote:What I mean by that is that things that fit the flavour of an army are likely easier for them to get hold of. I.E. Tau close combat options are limited and expensive but the same thing in Chaos could be priced more competitively.
Similarly for Orks, their ranged option are likely to not be costed the same as guard equipment.
Orks are a combined arms army, a big shoota should be costed in a way that it makes sense to take it in a mob of shoota boyz or on a battlewagon.
A better way to get a fair price for a big shoota (if you think they are to costly atm - as I do) is to compare it to other options in the same codex that you do think are competitively priced.
Lets say a Kustom Shoota at 2pts, I think that's a fair price point, a big shoota is certainly better than that, perhaps twice as good so 4pts would seem pretty fair.
A kustom shoota is better than a big shoota... how did you get the idea it would be the other way around? It also sees next to no play outside of sinking those last 3 points somewhere.
Remember the pricing model where you pay the same points no matter which model takes the weapon means that some option are far less attractive on certain units. The big shoota with its excellent range isn't too useful on a boys unit that is heading for the enemy but on a fire support battle wagon they are much better.
They are terrible everywhere, especially on those fire support battlewagons - their main gun has 24" range, I'd put 4 kustom shootas on them, but not 4 big shootas.
|
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/07/23 12:12:04
7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 12:29:33
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
|
Big shoota is one of the best examples of why pointing things the same across the board is a terrible idea. A big shoots for 5 points on a vehicle is a no brainer (always load battlewagos w/4 unless you are really needing to cut points), sure load it up as many as will fit. they work great on deffkoptas too (TL variety) but on boyz they make no sense at 5 points. you need the boys advancing and so hitting on 6's, they giv eup the bonus attack from a choppa making them worse in close combat and for 10 points (cost of 2 guns) over 2 normal boyz you average 1 hit. it could be a free option for boyz and I still wouldn't take it.
|
10000 points 7000
6000
5000
5000
2000
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 12:37:29
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk
|
I never take any on my battlewagons. Those 20 points can buy me so many other things which actually do something...
Koptas usually use KMB because they are cheaper than big shootas.
Also keep in mind that dakkaguns are free, despite having the same shoots at half range.
|
7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 13:10:34
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
Gargantuan Gargant
|
Jidmah wrote:I never take any on my battlewagons. Those 20 points can buy me so many other things which actually do something...
Koptas usually use KMB because they are cheaper than big shootas.
Also keep in mind that dakkaguns are free, despite having the same shoots at half range.
Exactly, its price is especially egregious on vehicles like Battlewagons and Trukks since they are effectively useless as far as damage output goes. Not to mention a Battlewagon prefers being in CC with a deffrolla over shooting ineffectually with guns, so it just makes them even more redundant.
Like I mentioned in the Ork thread, for it to cost the same points as it is now, we would need to up the fire rate to at least Assault 4-5 or give it AP-1 to give it some actual staying power as a weapon. Otherwise it definitely needs to be 1-2 points for it to be considered an actual choice to take for units. Someone mentioned earlier being able to take more big shootas per unit for guys like Boyz squads makes sense, maybe make it so for every 10 you can take 2 big shootas instead? 6 big shootas would actually do something in a big shoota bad moon mob that tellyported into dakka range.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 13:57:08
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
|
Jidmah wrote:I never take any on my battlewagons. Those 20 points can buy me so many other things which actually do something...
Koptas usually use KMB because they are cheaper than big shootas.
Also keep in mind that dakkaguns are free, despite having the same shoots at half range.
depends on the lists. I use vehicle heavy lists, modified battlewagon bash with dual choppa nobz and gretchin inside alongside biekr boss, wartrike, kbb, shokkjump and scrapjet.
I need the shootas for chaff clearing to get the layers of screens removed to get the nobz and vehicles deeper in, often the kbb punches the hole and big shootas knock out the last few emmebrs of guardsmen to get to that layer 2 /shrug going to vary by meta but I often have 3-4 layers of bubblewrap to deal with.
|
10000 points 7000
6000
5000
5000
2000
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 15:24:16
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk
|
That's a very specific scenario though.
If it works for you, great, but I'd rather change up the list to get something with better chaff clearing in than a battlewagon with gretchin inside, like a Gorkanaut, another buggy or Warbikers.
In any case, a battlewagon with 4 big shootas will not be winning any tournaments, even if they were free
|
7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 15:55:54
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
|
Jidmah wrote:That's a very specific scenario though.
If it works for you, great, but I'd rather change up the list to get something with better chaff clearing in than a battlewagon with gretchin inside, like a Gorkanaut, another buggy or Warbikers.
In any case, a battlewagon with 4 big shootas will not be winning any tournaments, even if they were free 
yea, everythign is meta specific.
my tournament level list does nto have any normal wagons, though it does have bone breakers and a gorkanaught.
It is my take all comers beer a pretzels level list, not too Waac or too casual to be useless. works well for any mission rolled for but not designed with ITC missions in mind.
On a vehicle I think a big shoota is "fair" as in average for what it does compared to other options across multiple books. to be a "good" choice it would need improvments. it is odd that a cheaper kustom shoota is better and cheaper.
Though even in competitive lists I run a few big shootas mostly to even out points though
|
10000 points 7000
6000
5000
5000
2000
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 16:40:56
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
|
Well, it's very close to a Storm Bolter upgrade, even considering for Orks at BS5+
SB: for 2 points gets about .66 extra wounds [in half range/bolter drill], a Big Shoota gets .59 extra wounds [upgraded from Slugga], both before saves, to T4 targets. The storm bolter goes up to .88 vs T3.
Bolter: 2/3*1/2 = .33, .66 in half/bolter drill.
Storm Bolter: 2*2/3*1/2 = .66, 1.32 in half. That's +.33W, and +.66W in half.
A Slugga is effectively worthless, but for sake of completeness: (1/6+1/6*4/3)*1/2 = .19W
A Big Shoota: 3*(1/6+1/6*4/3)*2/3 = .78W
A Big Shoota outperforms the storm bolter, without even accounting for the fact that the Storm Bolter replaces a Boltgun, at ranges between 12"-36", and is very close by performance difference within 12". 2-3 points, probably 3, because it's also assault, sounds like an appropriate price.
|
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/07/23 16:52:19
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 16:55:01
Subject: Re:What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
Trustworthy Shas'vre
|
So, when is GW going to reduce the cost of Tau suit weapons? some are overcosted for a BS4 platform...
|
'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 17:05:40
Subject: Re:What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
|
carldooley wrote:So, when is GW going to reduce the cost of Tau suit weapons? some are overcosted for a BS4 platform...
So are a lot of weapons. A Meltagun is worse than a Plasmagun, but costs more. A Flamer costs 6 points, a Storm Bolter costs 2.
|
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 19:01:47
Subject: Re:What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
Gargantuan Gargant
|
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: carldooley wrote:So, when is GW going to reduce the cost of Tau suit weapons? some are overcosted for a BS4 platform...
So are a lot of weapons. A Meltagun is worse than a Plasmagun, but costs more. A Flamer costs 6 points, a Storm Bolter costs 2.
Yeah, the design paradigm for a lot of armies is very one sided towards one type of weaponry. For the majority of Imperial factions, plasma and stormbolters are the go-to weapons. Melta and flamers may as well might not exist for what they cost right now.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 20:04:27
Subject: Re:What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
|
Grimskul wrote: Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: carldooley wrote:So, when is GW going to reduce the cost of Tau suit weapons? some are overcosted for a BS4 platform...
So are a lot of weapons. A Meltagun is worse than a Plasmagun, but costs more. A Flamer costs 6 points, a Storm Bolter costs 2.
Yeah, the design paradigm for a lot of armies is very one sided towards one type of weaponry. For the majority of Imperial factions, plasma and stormbolters are the go-to weapons. Melta and flamers may as well might not exist for what they cost right now.
Chaos aswell, but replace stormbolters with combi and add in the odd autocannon variant.
Or the new chaincannon.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/23 20:04:48
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 20:31:35
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
3 points seems fine to me.
|
CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 20:53:53
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk
|
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Well, it's very close to a Storm Bolter upgrade, even considering for Orks at BS5+ SB: for 2 points gets about .66 extra wounds [in half range/bolter drill], a Big Shoota gets .59 extra wounds [upgraded from Slugga], both before saves, to T4 targets. The storm bolter goes up to .88 vs T3. Bolter: 2/3*1/2 = .33, .66 in half/bolter drill. Storm Bolter: 2*2/3*1/2 = .66, 1.32 in half. That's +.33W, and +.66W in half. A Slugga is effectively worthless, but for sake of completeness: (1/6+1/6*4/3)*1/2 = .19W A Big Shoota: 3*(1/6+1/6*4/3)*2/3 = .78W A Big Shoota outperforms the storm bolter, without even accounting for the fact that the Storm Bolter replaces a Boltgun, at ranges between 12"-36", and is very close by performance difference within 12". 2-3 points, probably 3, because it's also assault, sounds like an appropriate price. A big shoota replaces a shoota. And something is wrong with you math. Under no circumstances does a BS5 big shoota outperform a BS3 stormbolter. Storm bolter shoots 4, hits 2.66, wounds 1.33 Shoota shoots 2.33, hits .77, wounds 0.38 Big shoota shoots 3.5, hits 1.16, wounds .77 So, even with you weird way to calculate the worth of an upgrade, a storm bolter yields .66 additional wounds, a big shoota adds .38 wounds to a shoota boy - or +50% damage for either upgrade. Unless we are talking about actually clearing chaff which tends to be T3, in that case the storm bolter (and the kustom shoota) is way better than the big shoota.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/23 21:08:12
7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 21:01:19
Subject: Re:What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
Dakka Veteran
|
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: carldooley wrote:So, when is GW going to reduce the cost of Tau suit weapons? some are overcosted for a BS4 platform...
So are a lot of weapons. A Meltagun is worse than a Plasmagun, but costs more. A Flamer costs 6 points, a Storm Bolter costs 2.
The right thing to do is swap the costs for Meltagun/Plasmagun and lower Flamer weapons to 4/8 for Flamer/Heavy Flamer
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 22:04:14
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
|
Jidmah wrote: Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:Well, it's very close to a Storm Bolter upgrade, even considering for Orks at BS5+
SB: for 2 points gets about .66 extra wounds [in half range/bolter drill], a Big Shoota gets .59 extra wounds [upgraded from Slugga], both before saves, to T4 targets. The storm bolter goes up to .88 vs T3.
Bolter: 2/3*1/2 = .33, .66 in half/bolter drill.
Storm Bolter: 2*2/3*1/2 = .66, 1.32 in half. That's +.33W, and +.66W in half.
A Slugga is effectively worthless, but for sake of completeness: (1/6+1/6*4/3)*1/2 = .19W
A Big Shoota: 3*(1/6+1/6*4/3)*2/3 = .78W
A Big Shoota outperforms the storm bolter, without even accounting for the fact that the Storm Bolter replaces a Boltgun, at ranges between 12"-36", and is very close by performance difference within 12". 2-3 points, probably 3, because it's also assault, sounds like an appropriate price.
A big shoota replaces a shoota.
And something is wrong with you math. Under no circumstances does a BS5 big shoota outperform a BS3 stormbolter.
Obviously, between 24" and 36" a Big Shoota has to outperform a Storm Bolter. That said...
I ran 10000 tests in each circumstance, and recorded the total number of wounds inflicted.
A short-ranged storm bolter outperforms a big shoota, which in turn outperforms a long-range storm bolter. However, the above graph assumes it was just installed in place of no weapon [IE: tank pintle mount], not counting the boltgun or slugga or shoota it replaced. The below graph subtracts the distributions of the weapons being replaced [IE: assigned to infantry]:
Compared to a Storm Bolter, the Big Shoota is a "more worthwhile upgrade" in the range band 12"-36", and a "less worthwhile upgrade" in the range band 0"-12". Considering the fact that it's also an assault weapon and is effective at 36" [which is 2-3 times the range of the weapon it's replacing] while the Storm Bolter tops out at 24", I'd say the Big Shoota is probably a 2-3 point weapon, erring on the side of 3 points.
More than the big shoota, I more often wonder why the Rokkit Launcher is 12 points, and the Burna does D3 shots instead of D6.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KurtAngle2 wrote: Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: carldooley wrote:So, when is GW going to reduce the cost of Tau suit weapons? some are overcosted for a BS4 platform...
So are a lot of weapons. A Meltagun is worse than a Plasmagun, but costs more. A Flamer costs 6 points, a Storm Bolter costs 2.
The right thing to do is swap the costs for Meltagun/Plasmagun and lower Flamer weapons to 4/8 for Flamer/Heavy Flamer
I think the problem goes deeper than mispricing weapons, but down to their function and mechanical implementation, and how the weapons fill roles and their bounds of capabilities. Because tanks are T7 and T8 SV3+, the promotion of a Plasmagun to S8 D2 means it's largely as capable as a meltagun against vehicles and more capable against heavy infantry, when it didn't use to be effective against medium tanks at all.
|
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2019/07/23 22:33:42
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/07/23 22:40:40
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
|
 |
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
|
Comparing weapons across codexes is usually not particularly useful. That said, 5 points seems like an ok price. Could be cheaper.
A Tyranid Deathspitter is 24" range, S5 AP -1 on BS 3-4+ platforms, and is 5 points. Though the minimum cost for such platform is 20, I think.
A Devourer is 4 points, 18" range Assault 3, S4 on a 4 point BS 4+ platform.
The 36" range for the Big Shoota is pretty valuable, imo. Even if it winds up being for sporadic supporting fire.
|
|
|
 |
 |
|