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A Big Shoota Boy will cause, on average, 0.556 Wounds between 1.1 and 36 inches.

A Storm Bolter Space Marine will cause, on average 1.111 Wounds between 1.1 and 12 inches, and 0.556 Wounds between 12.1 and 24 inches.

So, between 1.1 and 12 inches, the Storm Bolter causes 0.555 more wounds than the Big Shoota, between 12.1 and 24 inches they deal the same damage, and between 24.1 and 36 inches the Big Shoota causes 0.556 more Wounds than the Storm Bolter.

All of this versus T4, 6+Sv targets. Against T5, 6+Sv:

A Big Shoota Boy will cause, on average, 0.417 Wounds between 1.1 and 36".

A Storm Bolter Space Marine will cause, on average 0.741 Wounds between 1.1 and 12 inches, and 0.37 Wounds between 12.1 and 24 inches.

So, between 1.1 and 12 inches, the Storm Bolter causes 0.324 more wounds than the Big Shoota, between 12.1 and 24 inches the Big Shoota wil cause 0.047 more Wounds than the Storm Bolter, and between 24.1 and 36 inches the Big Shoota causes 0.417 more Wounds than the Storm Bolter.

My conclusion is that, in the "ideal" range, the Storm Bolter significantly outperforms the Big Shoota, generally causing almost twice as many Wounds. Outside of that range, the difference between them is non-existent to negligible. And, obviously, outside of the Storm Bolter's max range the Big Shoota will outperform IT significantly. So, I would say they should be relatively equally priced, based on the pure math of it. 2, maybe 3 points max.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Comparing weapons across codexes is usually not particularly useful. That said, 5 points seems like an ok price. Could be cheaper.

A Tyranid Deathspitter is 24" range, S5 AP -1 on BS 3-4+ platforms, and is 5 points. Though the minimum cost for such platform is 20, I think.

Hold up, you're saying 5 points is an okay price versus:
-1 AP, +2 or +3 BS and -12"?

I'd take the deathspitter over a big shoota any day.
Dont forget the +12" is basically useless for an Ork, as they will be running or advancing anyway


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flandarz wrote:

My conclusion is that, in the "ideal" range, the Storm Bolter significantly outperforms the Big Shoota, generally causing almost twice as many Wounds. Outside of that range, the difference between them is non-existent to negligible. And, obviously, outside of the Storm Bolter's max range the Big Shoota will outperform IT significantly. So, I would say they should be relatively equally priced, based on the pure math of it. 2, maybe 3 points max.

My conclusion is everything should be priced fairly, and why would an outperforming Storm Bolter be cheaper than a Big Shoota?
1 Point. 2 Points max.

Like I said, that's in the "ideal" range. 1.1 to 12". In the other ranges, they either perform equally or the Big Shoota does better.

 flandarz wrote:
Like I said, that's in the "ideal" range. 1.1 to 12". In the other ranges, they either perform equally or the Big Shoota does better.

Though with Bolter Discipline, we can extend the ideal range of a Storm Bolter to 24" if they stand still.

True enough. I was just running the numbers of the base stuff, before anything extra. The math starts getting wonky when you add stuff like rerolls, shoot again, etc.

Firstly, let me just say. Bolter discipline. Not bolter drill. They're different things.

 Eonfuzz wrote:
[

My conclusion is everything should be priced fairly, and why would an outperforming Storm Bolter be cheaper than a Big Shoota?
1 Point. 2 Points max.

Because the platform it is on hides some of the cost.
So long as some weapons have a cost of 0, you will never have exactly fair pricing of weapons based on the ability of the weapon. Platform cost and opportunity cost must be weighed.
Even if we ignore vehicles, it's still a very difficult comparion. Let's for the sake of argument sick to the troops category.
A tactical Sergeant can have a storm bolter in place of his bolter. That's a max of 9 ablative wounds before it is removed.
A boy mob of 30 can have three big shooters. That's 27 ablative wounds before any are removed.
That Sergeant is giving up the opportunity to take a better weapon like a Combi plasma or power fist. The boy only gives up a shoota or chopper.
The big shoota is a significant boost over a basic shoota or Choppa*. The Storm bolter is literally a second bolter. Still a great boost but maybe not to the same degree.
Yes the boy is likely to be advancing or in combat. But the bolter discipline rule pretty much forces the tactical squad to remain still. Moving is easily more useful than standing still in games with lots of objectives.

You can't just look at damage output.
Even when you do look at damage output, you need to factor in different targets. S5 has double the chance of wounding T8. That's huge. Rarely needed, but huge.

With all that said, 5 points does sound too high. 4 maybe.


* I'm assuming the boy gives up his Choppa and slugga. I don't know.

> Talks about platform
> Ignores ork platform is worse than marine
> Uses 189 points of "meat shield" to justify points
> 4 points is ok

mfw

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Compared to a Storm Bolter, the Big Shoota is a "more worthwhile upgrade" in the range band 12"-36", and a "less worthwhile upgrade" in the range band 0"-12". Considering the fact that it's also an assault weapon and is effective at 36" [which is 2-3 times the range of the weapon it's replacing] while the Storm Bolter tops out at 24", I'd say the Big Shoota is probably a 2-3 point weapon, erring on the side of 3 points.

The 36" almost never matter in ork reality. None of the units which can take big shootas sit back and shoot them from across the board, most either have other weapons with 24" range or need to get into melee to be worth their points.
Plus you still completely ignore that the storm bolter and kustom shoota outperform big shootas by a land-slide when targeting T3 - the primary target for both guns. Unless you are fighting other orks, T4 targets tend to be protected by good saves, FNP and/or -1 to hit, invalidating either weapon anyways.

I think the problem goes deeper than mispricing weapons, but down to their function and mechanical implementation, and how the weapons fill roles and their bounds of capabilities. Because tanks are T7 and T8 SV3+, the promotion of a Plasmagun to S8 D2 means it's largely as capable as a meltagun against vehicles and more capable against heavy infantry, when it didn't use to be effective against medium tanks at all.

For my Deathguard I prefer plasma over meltaguns because melta are all-or-nothing and often end up missing, bouncing off a save or just dealing two or three damage. From plasma, the chances even out better, so even if you don't destroy the tank, you are more likely to at least damage it so you can finish it off with other weapons like VotLW bolters, some blight launchers or a daemon prince. Then again, I'm a master of killing all my plague marines in single volley of overcharged plasma, even with re-rolls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zustiur wrote:
Because the platform it is on hides some of the cost.
So long as some weapons have a cost of 0, you will never have exactly fair pricing of weapons based on the ability of the weapon. Platform cost and opportunity cost must be weighed.
Even if we ignore vehicles, it's still a very difficult comparion. Let's for the sake of argument sick to the troops category.
A tactical Sergeant can have a storm bolter in place of his bolter. That's a max of 9 ablative wounds before it is removed.
A boy mob of 30 can have three big shooters. That's 27 ablative wounds before any are removed.
That Sergeant is giving up the opportunity to take a better weapon like a Combi plasma or power fist. The boy only gives up a shoota or chopper.
The big shoota is a significant boost over a basic shoota or Choppa*. The Storm bolter is literally a second bolter. Still a great boost but maybe not to the same degree.
Yes the boy is likely to be advancing or in combat. But the bolter discipline rule pretty much forces the tactical squad to remain still. Moving is easily more useful than standing still in games with lots of objectives.

You can't just look at damage output.
Even when you do look at damage output, you need to factor in different targets. S5 has double the chance of wounding T8. That's huge. Rarely needed, but huge.

With all that said, 5 points does sound too high. 4 maybe.


* I'm assuming the boy gives up his Choppa and slugga. I don't know.

At its current status is the big shoota is a trash upgrade that sees no play unless it's mandatory like for nauts, buggies or planes.
Storm bolter is considered a decent upgrade and units of models wielding storm bolters from multiple codices see top level tournament play.
On top of that orks do have their own storm bolters - kustom shootas are Assault 4 18" S4 for 2 points. Which is considered to be at least somewhat decent, but still sees next to no play.

This alone is sufficient proof that the big shoota is not fine at twice as many points as a gun that sees little play despite being better in almost all circumstances.

36" is worthless for any unit that can take big shootas - buggies, planes, nauts, battlewagons and shoota boyz have guns that need to be within 24" or less, kanz, koptas and boyz need to be combat to have at least a chance of getting their points back.

And on top of all that, orks are BS5! You need 8 big shootas to deal an average one wound to a T8 model. That's 40 points, how is that "huge" for a single wound on a LRBT?!
If you really think so, I guess storm bolters should be 6 points a piece - because currently 14 points of marine storm bolters also deal 1 damage to a LRBT or knight.

36" is worthless for any unit that can take big shootas - buggies, planes, nauts, battlewagons and shoota boyz have guns that need to be within 24" or less, kanz, koptas and boyz need to be combat to have at least a chance of getting their points back.

Imo the issue is that boyz, are just boyz. As in they are one unit.
You maybee could argue that gun boyz should be seperated with a higher density of 1/5 in order to be picked for objective camping.

As it stands though the bs 5+, lack of density per squad (1 /10) ,etc make them really hard to justify.

the weapon itself though is not the issue, i would take the weapon on Disciples, Marines, etc. it's just hold back by the generally subpar ork shooting for infantry and the ammount per squad.

on the other hand Dakkax3 has significantly boosted ork shooting. It's still meh at best but not to the level of older editions.


Edit: A closer comparison can be made with the Heavy stubber, which is in essence the same gun for use and platform variety. (Atleast for R&H)
it's cheaper, but a lot worse overall.
Even the basic lineinfantry of Orkz can be easily compared to Renegades and heretics. Both suffer bs 5+ and 6+ save, with the ork winning in T,WS and A department.

Due to the later two the Ork is genereally a lot more effective in Melee then Militia, whilest militia has the edge in amassing troops (4ppm). fundamentally the armies clash in the role bestowed upon them. R&H is a Gunline army with some mele capabilities, Orkz are a Melee army with some Gunline capabilities.

It makes sense for R&H to counteract their bad BS via weaponry that has a high ROF, for Ork boyz, it does not, since why bother with ROF when your melee power is just 3-4 times better, cheaper and you got a reliable way of movement?

 Eonfuzz wrote:
> Talks about platform
> Ignores ork platform is worse than marine
> Uses 189 points of "meat shield" to justify points
> 4 points is ok

mfw

Seriously, the thread already had all the classics

- Orks can't shoot, so their weapons should suck (orks suck at aiming, not shooting)
- There are more orks so the weapon is less likely to die, because apparently killing 6+ models is impossible and leadership doesn't exist
- The weapon is better than a weapon from my codex so it should cost more
- In a very specific scenario, the weapon is sometimes better than another gun that is better in all other scenarios, so it should be more expensive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

36" is worthless for any unit that can take big shootas - buggies, planes, nauts, battlewagons and shoota boyz have guns that need to be within 24" or less, kanz, koptas and boyz need to be combat to have at least a chance of getting their points back.

Imo the issue is that boyz, are just boyz. As in they are one unit.
You maybee could argue that gun boyz should be seperated with a higher density of 1/5 in order to be picked for objective camping.

As it stands though the bs 5+, lack of density per squad (1 /10) ,etc make them really hard to justify.

the weapon itself though is not the issue, i would take the weapon on Disciples, Marines, etc. it's just hold back by the generally subpar ork shooting for infantry and the ammount per squad.

on the other hand Dakkax3 has significantly boosted ork shooting. It's still meh at best but not to the level of older editions.

I disagree with everything you wrote

I'll tell you why:
1) The gun itself is the issue. For 5 points you don't get 5 points worth of shooting. A big shoota does not provide the same advantages as a heavy bolter because it lacks the AP and the accuracy to actually clear chaff unless taken in sufficient numbers. Some napkin math: If you take three big shootas the extra shots make up for the lacking AP and BS. So basically buying three big shootas for a mob of boyz should be the same as buying one heavy bolter for a tactical squad - at two points per big shoota this would work, at three points it would become twice as expensive as the marine upgrade.
2) Increasing the density doesn't help the problem at all. In a list with two or three battlewagons, I can have 8-12 big shootas on fairly durable platforms, yet I take none. Because no matter how I look a it, the big shoota is not worth 5 points, especially when consider what you can get instead. The same would happen if could take six big shootas in boyz mobs. At 5 points, none would be the best option.
3) It's not like DakkaDakkaDakka has fixed ork shooting by itself. The combination of bad moons, freeboota or deff skulls traits, Dakka³, Moar Dakka and grot shield stratagems and the availability of decent anti-tank in the form the Big Killa Boss SSAG, cheap-as-chips smasha guns and the wazbom blastajet is what has brought ork shooting back.
4) Shooting wasn't that bad during old editions. In 5th an ork gun line with lootas, big guns, shoota boyz and dakka jets was a very viable strategy. 7th edition was by far the worst thing that has ever happened to orks, you shouldn't take it as a measuring stick.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
> Talks about platform
> Ignores ork platform is worse than marine
> Uses 189 points of "meat shield" to justify points
> 4 points is ok

mfw

Seriously, the thread already had all the classics

- Orks can't shoot, so their weapons should suck (orks suck at aiming, not shooting)
- There are more orks so the weapon is less likely to die, because apparently killing 6+ models is impossible and leadership doesn't exist
- The weapon is better than a weapon from my codex so it should cost more
- In a very specific scenario, the weapon is sometimes better than another gun that is better in all other scenarios, so it should be more expensive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

36" is worthless for any unit that can take big shootas - buggies, planes, nauts, battlewagons and shoota boyz have guns that need to be within 24" or less, kanz, koptas and boyz need to be combat to have at least a chance of getting their points back.

Imo the issue is that boyz, are just boyz. As in they are one unit.
You maybee could argue that gun boyz should be seperated with a higher density of 1/5 in order to be picked for objective camping.

As it stands though the bs 5+, lack of density per squad (1 /10) ,etc make them really hard to justify.

the weapon itself though is not the issue, i would take the weapon on Disciples, Marines, etc. it's just hold back by the generally subpar ork shooting for infantry and the ammount per squad.

on the other hand Dakkax3 has significantly boosted ork shooting. It's still meh at best but not to the level of older editions.

I disagree with everything you wrote

I'll tell you why:
1) The gun itself is the issue. For 5 points you don't get 5 points worth of shooting. A big shoota does not provide the same advantages as a heavy bolter because it lacks the AP and the accuracy to actually clear chaff unless taken in sufficient numbers. Some napkin math: If you take three big shootas the extra shots make up for the lacking AP and BS. So basically buying three big shootas for a mob of boyz should be the same as buying one heavy bolter for a tactical squad - at two points per big shoota this would work, at three points it would become twice as expensive as the marine upgrade.
2) Increasing the density doesn't help the problem at all. In a list with two or three battlewagons, I can have 8-12 big shootas on fairly durable platforms, yet I take none. Because no matter how I look a it, the big shoota is not worth 5 points, especially when consider what you can get instead. The same would happen if could take six big shootas in boyz mobs. At 5 points, none would be the best option.
3) It's not like DakkaDakkaDakka has fixed ork shooting by itself. The combination of bad moons, freeboota or deff skulls traits, Dakka³, Moar Dakka and grot shield stratagems and the availability of decent anti-tank in the form the Big Killa Boss SSAG, cheap-as-chips smasha guns and the wazbom blastajet is what has brought ork shooting back.
4) Shooting wasn't that bad during old editions. In 5th an ork gun line with lootas, big guns, shoota boyz and dakka jets was a very viable strategy. 7th edition was by far the worst thing that has ever happened to orks, you shouldn't take it as a measuring stick.

1) you can compare the Gun all you like to a heavy bolter. It is still closer to a heavy stubber in application use and units that can field it. See spoiler


2) I agree on the pricing but ever since GW tought standardized pricing = good you will not see change. (personally 3 pts would do fine on a bs 5 plattform if the stubber is indeed worth 2 pts for bs 5 plattforms. )

3) I don't play orkz these days anymore so forgive me for beeing rusted.

4) meh, i didn't play orkz during 7th i was preoccupied with IA13 Renegade lists. I do remember distinctly the time though when the Dakkajets et all came out. bs 4 + and ground attack certainly did help to push them torwards beeing good units. (considering i own a full airwing i may or may not have had clear leanings torwards dakka always.)



5) I miss 'ard boyz or panzaboys with 4+ armor though, they always were a decent camp and shot unit.

Not Online!!! wrote:
1) you can compare the Gun all you like to a heavy bolter. It is still closer to a heavy stubber in application use and units that can field it. See spoiler

I'll not go into the R&H part since I don't feel like anyone at GW has given a grot's ass about balancing them properly.
What I was trying to say that the big shoota's only role is to kill infantry models with average toughness and bad saves in an efficient way. At 5 points it can't fulfill that role, neither in comparison to other codices (heavy bolter), nor in comparison to its own codex (shoota, kustom shoota or even skorchas). An optional upgrade that cannot fulfill its primary role might as well not exist.

2) I agree on the pricing but ever since GW tought standardized pricing = good you will not see change. (personally 3 pts would do fine on a bs 5 plattform if the stubber is indeed worth 2 pts for bs 5 plattforms. )

The thing is, a stubber/slugger is something you usually would leave at home if you could. The vast majority of them see play because a vehicle must take a hull-mounted weapon and it's the cheapest option/can't be removed.
Big shootas come in three variations - in competition with another weapon (shoota boyz, kanz, deff dread, koptas), bolt-on upgrade you can simply chose not to take (battlewagon) and random hull weapon on a pile of guns with no choice but to take them(planes, nauts, buggies).
I think they are actually fine in the last category because they are just part of the base price, but in the first two cases there is simply no reason to ever take them for 5 points, especially when compared to a rokkit, KMB or dread klaw.

4) meh, i didn't play orkz during 7th i was preoccupied with IA13 Renegade lists. I do remember distinctly the time though when the Dakkajets et all came out. bs 4 + and ground attack certainly did help to push them torwards beeing good units. (considering i own a full airwing i may or may not have had clear leanings torwards dakka always.)

During 5th orks in general worked quite well due to some lucky coincidences. Autocannons were the best guns in the game and lootas happen to be a unit with all autocannons - with the help of dirt cheap kannons, rokkit koptas or buggies and a 4+ KFF, they could reliably take on even the dreaded leaf-blower. Since a single penetrating hit was enough to either outright destroy a vehicle or at least its main gun, deff guns, rokkits, PKs, deff rollas and kannons were plenty to destroy anything but the mighty landraider. 6th changed both the KFF and how vehicles took damage, plus challenges made PK nobz a liability. It also buried the exploit that made nob bikers great, leaving orks with no way to deal with armor.

5) I miss 'ard boyz or panzaboys with 4+ armor though, they always were a decent camp and shot unit.

Yeah, that 5+ stratagem is just dumb. They should just have made it 4+ and exclude them from looting.

Just wanna mention that the "Ork Boyz have more ablative Wounds" argument isn't the whole story. An MSU of 10 Boyz costs 70 pts, while an MSU of 5 Tac Marines costs 65. After the cost of a Big Shoota or Storm Bolter, those go up to 75 and 67 pts. To take down 11 Wounds of Boyz (9 Boyz and 1 Nob) it would take a BS4+ platform with an S4, AP0, D1 weapon 52 shots. To take down 6 Wounds of Marines (4 Marines and 1 Sergeant) it would take the same enemy 72 shots. This because the Marines have a 3+Sv versus the 6+ of the Boyz.

If we go with the largest possibly units for each, you'd have 30 Boyz for 210 pts and 10 Marines for 130 pts. After adding in 3 Big Shootaz and a Storm Bolter, you're looking at 225 and 132. In regards to durability, those Boyz will require 144 shots to take down, via the same enemy as before. The Marines will take 99 shots. So, in order to get to the point where the ablative Wounds make Boyz a more durable platform for their heavy weapons, you need to pay roughly 2/3rds more points than the Marines, while getting roughly 50% more durability. This isn't incredibly efficient, and doesn't even get into the difficulty of hiding 30 Boyz out of LOS compared to 10 Marines. Point for point, Marines are going to be roughly 50% more durable than Boyz, with better all-around stats, until you start getting into AP-2 or higher. When higher AP weapons start hitting, durability begins to lean towards the Boy side.

Since at least the people entirely missed the point I was making. Let me try again.
A) you can't compare weapons by themselves. You have to compare the price of the unit and what you've chosen not to take instead. You have to compare durability, mobility, availability and all sorts of other factors.
B) what if I told you a storm bolter is actually a 4 point weapon on a body that is 2 points too expensive?
As I said earlier, fairly pricing weapons cannot be done until no weapon costs 0.

Zustiur wrote:
Since at least the people entirely missed the point I was making. Let me try again.
A) you can't compare weapons by themselves. You have to compare the price of the unit and what you've chosen not to take instead. You have to compare durability, mobility, availability and all sorts of other factors.
B) what if I told you a storm bolter is actually a 4 point weapon on a body that is 2 points too expensive?
As I said earlier, fairly pricing weapons cannot be done until no weapon costs 0.

We didn't miss that point. Thing is, right now they are a waste of points. Both math and experience have sufficiently proven that. So they need to go down, the question is just by how much.

When trying to find that answer, you are right, there are too many things to consider to just math it out. Therefore we look to weapons with similar performance (storm bolters or kustom shootas) as a milestone. If that ends up making them too cheap and thus auto-takes, they need to go up again.

There is no other way than iteration to find the correct values for game balance in complex games.

Zustiur wrote:
Since at least the people entirely missed the point I was making. Let me try again.
A) you can't compare weapons by themselves. You have to compare the price of the unit and what you've chosen not to take instead. You have to compare durability, mobility, availability and all sorts of other factors.
B) what if I told you a storm bolter is actually a 4 point weapon on a body that is 2 points too expensive?
As I said earlier, fairly pricing weapons cannot be done until no weapon costs 0.

you cannot lump in the cost of the weapon into the cost of the platform it is being wielded by simply because of how 8th works.

Now i think it is dumb to say that a storm bolter is the same cost on a space marine sargent as a spacemarine captain let alone for 2 points on a rhino for a 2nd one

The sarg pays 2 points and hits on 3's, the captain hits on 2's and rerolls 1's because of who he is. A LT allows rerolls to wound and can still take a storm bolter for 2 points.

A rhino can take 2 storm bolters, and is much tougher than a SM sarg but pays the same points.

I think it is valid to say space marines are too pricey, but it is invalid to take that into account for wargear costs. It should be something GW addresses in chapter approved (though not sure they ever will)

KurtAngle2 wrote:
2 Points, on par with a Heavy Stubber being 2 pts on a BS4+ platform

Every ork has dakka dakka. Literally doubling a weapons potential. They should get 0 discounts for their bs 5 as a result. The weapon is clearly superior to a stubber considering it's +1 str and assault.

 Xenomancers wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
2 Points, on par with a Heavy Stubber being 2 pts on a BS4+ platform

Every ork has dakka dakka. Literally doubling a weapons potential. They should get 0 discounts for their bs 5 as a result. The weapon is clearly superior to a stubber considering it's +1 str and assault.

Good point, but I don't think it should be more than 3 pts, all considered.

 Xenomancers wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
2 Points, on par with a Heavy Stubber being 2 pts on a BS4+ platform

Every ork has dakka dakka. Literally doubling a weapons potential. They should get 0 discounts for their bs 5 as a result. The weapon is clearly superior to a stubber considering it's +1 str and assault.

dakka dakka does not equate to BS4, it allows another possible shot only on 1/6 (.16) and then you hit with it 1/3 so 6% of the time they get the extra hit. it makes them BS ~4.6 vs BS4

They can spend cp to pull off dakka dakka on a 5 but no (good) ork player is going to do that one boyz unit w/ 3 big shootas. better to spend on a SSAG or lootas

 Xenomancers wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
2 Points, on par with a Heavy Stubber being 2 pts on a BS4+ platform

Every ork has dakka dakka. Literally doubling a weapons potential. They should get 0 discounts for their bs 5 as a result. The weapon is clearly superior to a stubber considering it's +1 str and assault.

Spoken like a true person who has made multiple mistakes on Ork rules before and has no understanding of how the army actually works. Have you read any of the posts before writing this down? Jidmah has already highlighted the many issues of the big shoota in the current Ork codex. Proccing on 6's to hit for shooting is great...if negative to hit modififers didn't exist and that the extra shot still only hits on a 5+. It can't be taken in enough volume in units that would want to abuse its range and shots and is outdone by several other anti-infantry weaponry in the Ork army that either costs less (kustom shoota) or is just plain better from being on a better platform and has better damage (dakkajet).

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
2 Points, on par with a Heavy Stubber being 2 pts on a BS4+ platform

Every ork has dakka dakka. Literally doubling a weapons potential. They should get 0 discounts for their bs 5 as a result. The weapon is clearly superior to a stubber considering it's +1 str and assault.

Good point, but I don't think it should be more than 3 pts, all considered.

4 points seems fair in a world where a heavy bolter is 10.

Warriors start with Devourers as one of their default weapons.

Also, don't forget Dakka Dakka Dakka for the Big Shoota.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
2 Points, on par with a Heavy Stubber being 2 pts on a BS4+ platform

Every ork has dakka dakka. Literally doubling a weapons potential. They should get 0 discounts for their bs 5 as a result. The weapon is clearly superior to a stubber considering it's +1 str and assault.

Good point, but I don't think it should be more than 3 pts, all considered.

A stubber is 2 points and is heavy. Lets just consider cultists here. They are always moving because they are objective grabbers. They hit on 5's with a stubber too as a result and they can't shoot it and advance ether. An evil suns ork can advance and shoot it with no penalty and proc additional shots on 6's. 4 points seems about right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
2 Points, on par with a Heavy Stubber being 2 pts on a BS4+ platform

Every ork has dakka dakka. Literally doubling a weapons potential. They should get 0 discounts for their bs 5 as a result. The weapon is clearly superior to a stubber considering it's +1 str and assault.

Spoken like a true person who has made multiple mistakes on Ork rules before and has no understanding of how the army actually works. Have you read any of the posts before writing this down? Jidmah has already highlighted the many issues of the big shoota in the current Ork codex. Proccing on 6's to hit for shooting is great...if negative to hit modififers didn't exist and that the extra shot still only hits on a 5+. It can't be taken in enough volume in units that would want to abuse its range and shots and is outdone by several other anti-infantry weaponry in the Ork army that either costs less (kustom shoota) or is just plain better from being on a better platform and has better damage (dakkajet).

All I said was it is superior to a stubber and it clearly is. My point about dakka dakka is it is pretty close to and often better than having BS4+. ESP if you can get free bootas +1 to hit or activate procing on 5's.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
2 Points, on par with a Heavy Stubber being 2 pts on a BS4+ platform

Every ork has dakka dakka. Literally doubling a weapons potential. They should get 0 discounts for their bs 5 as a result. The weapon is clearly superior to a stubber considering it's +1 str and assault.

Good point, but I don't think it should be more than 3 pts, all considered.

4 points seems fair in a world where a heavy bolter is 10.

A heavy bolter is overpriced too. it I think suffers the same problem. It is priced as if it were on a vehicle (and still overpriced compared to a storm bolter on a vehicle) I think it is worth 7ish points on a vehicle and probably half that on infantry so 4. But since they share a points cost GW is unlikely to split it off appropriatly this edition. maybe next edition they will at least divide to weapons cost for infantry and vehicle again


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 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
2 Points, on par with a Heavy Stubber being 2 pts on a BS4+ platform

Every ork has dakka dakka. Literally doubling a weapons potential. They should get 0 discounts for their bs 5 as a result. The weapon is clearly superior to a stubber considering it's +1 str and assault.

Good point, but I don't think it should be more than 3 pts, all considered.

A stubber is 2 points and is heavy. Lets just consider cultists here. They are always moving because they are objective grabbers. They hit on 5's with a stubber too as a result and they can't shoot it and advance ether. An evil suns ork can advance and shoot it with no penalty and proc additional shots on 6's. 4 points seems about right.


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 Grimskul wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
2 Points, on par with a Heavy Stubber being 2 pts on a BS4+ platform

Every ork has dakka dakka. Literally doubling a weapons potential. They should get 0 discounts for their bs 5 as a result. The weapon is clearly superior to a stubber considering it's +1 str and assault.

Spoken like a true person who has made multiple mistakes on Ork rules before and has no understanding of how the army actually works. Have you read any of the posts before writing this down? Jidmah has already highlighted the many issues of the big shoota in the current Ork codex. Proccing on 6's to hit for shooting is great...if negative to hit modififers didn't exist and that the extra shot still only hits on a 5+. It can't be taken in enough volume in units that would want to abuse its range and shots and is outdone by several other anti-infantry weaponry in the Ork army that either costs less (kustom shoota) or is just plain better from being on a better platform and has better damage (dakkajet).

All I said was it is superior to a stubber and it clearly is. My point about dakka dakka is it is pretty close to and often better than having BS4+. ESP if you can get free bootas +1 to hit or activate procing on 5's.

math says 4+BS due to dakka dakka is very wrong why do you keep trying to push this falsety. it is BS ~4.6 slightly better than 5 but it is a 6% chance to get an extra hit per shot

As a non greenskin I vote 2 pts although I could see 3 being fair. Its rare that the big shoota will be on par or ever out perform a stormbolter. 5 pts is laughable for what the weapon actually accomplishes.

I want to hear the argument for 6 points.

 DrGiggles wrote:
I want to hear the argument for 6 points.

With DakkaDakkaDakka a Big Shoota can get up to six shots! That means it could potentially wipe out an entire Grey Knight Strike Squad on its own! (Bad Moons could potentiall take out two whole Strike Squads with a single Big Shoota for a mere 2 CP!) At 6 points the Big Shoota is obviously a steal.

On a more serious note, I think that a problem with some comparisons to Space Marines is that for them their Storm Bolter is probably undercosted and their Heavy Bolter is probably overcosted.

Xenomancer: Marines suck!
Also Xenomancer: Orks should not be better than marines.

 Jidmah wrote:
Xenomancer: Marines suck!
Also Xenomancer: Orks should not be better than marines.

Orks are top tier and marines are bottom. My logical argument is actually a buff to a big shoota at 4 points has literally nothing to do with marines. Because dakka dakka and assault rule and str 5 compared to a 2 point stubber you can't charge less than 4 points.


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 DrGiggles wrote:
I want to hear the argument for 6 points.

HB is 10 points is probably the only argument for 6 point BS. It's actually a strong argument too. Unless you are also suggesting a 50% drop to HB across the board for all armies. Ork players should probably just be content having a top tier codex with 30 point smasha guns.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Xenomancer: Marines suck!
Also Xenomancer: Orks should not be better than marines.

Orks are top tier and marines are bottom. My logical argument is actually a buff to a big shoota at 4 points has literally nothing to do with marines. Because dakka dakka and assault rule and str 5 compared to a 2 point stubber you can't charge less than 4 points.


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 DrGiggles wrote:
I want to hear the argument for 6 points.

HB is 10 points is probably the only argument for 6 point BS. It's actually a strong argument too. Unless you are also suggesting a 50% drop to HB across the board for all armies. Ork players should probably just be content having a top tier codex with 30 point smasha guns.

Aaaaaand you lost what little credibility you may have had left. If you seriously think that a big shoota costing 6 points is reasonable because we have undercosted smasha guns then you can't blame people for not taking you seriously. By that logic, you should be paying 15 points for heavy bolters since Primaris Hellblasters are one of the only competitive things marine players consistently bring to games. That'll balance them out! Swearsies!

Having an overpriced weapon is not justified by having a completely unrelated unit choice being spammed in an army, if anything it should be altered to make having weapons choices actually matter in the army and give rise to diversity in lists. But judging from your past posts, all you want are movie marines with plasma weapon-level bolt weaponry as standard while staying at the same cost.