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About tree-fiddy.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Xenomancer: Marines suck!
Also Xenomancer: Orks should not be better than marines.

Orks are top tier and marines are bottom. My logical argument is actually a buff to a big shoota at 4 points has literally nothing to do with marines. Because dakka dakka and assault rule and str 5 compared to a 2 point stubber you can't charge less than 4 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DrGiggles wrote:
I want to hear the argument for 6 points.

HB is 10 points is probably the only argument for 6 point BS. It's actually a strong argument too. Unless you are also suggesting a 50% drop to HB across the board for all armies. Ork players should probably just be content having a top tier codex with 30 point smasha guns.

Aaaaaand you lost what little credibility you may have had left. If you seriously think that a big shoota costing 6 points is reasonable because we have undercosted smasha guns then you can't blame people for not taking you seriously. By that logic, you should be paying 15 points for heavy bolters since Primaris Hellblasters are one of the only competitive things marine players consistently bring to games. That'll balance them out! Swearsies!

Having an overpriced weapon is not justified by having a completely unrelated unit choice being spammed in an army, if anything it should be altered to make having weapons choices actually matter in the army and give rise to diversity in lists. But judging from your past posts, all you want are movie marines with plasma weapon-level bolt weaponry as standard while staying at the same cost.

It is justified based on the cost of other weapons comparable to it. In this thread nid devs have brought up. They are 4 point 18"range str 4 assault 3 weapons. You think a BS should cost 1 to 2 points while this weapon cost 4? It's also not uncommon for nids to bring a unit of 30 dev gaunts...so...seriously. A 4 point BS would be fine and probably be auto include in every boys unit - if it kills 1 model it pays for itself. The point about smashas is...maybe when you have some of the most undercosted shooting in the game - you shouldn't complain about an option you aren't forced to take. Just bring more smashas and dakka jets.

ERJAK wrote:
About tree-fiddy.

I ain't gonna give you no tree-fiddy! Especially for something as lacking as the Big Shoota you silly Loch Ness monster!

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Xenomancer: Marines suck!
Also Xenomancer: Orks should not be better than marines.

Orks are top tier and marines are bottom. My logical argument is actually a buff to a big shoota at 4 points has literally nothing to do with marines. Because dakka dakka and assault rule and str 5 compared to a 2 point stubber you can't charge less than 4 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DrGiggles wrote:
I want to hear the argument for 6 points.

HB is 10 points is probably the only argument for 6 point BS. It's actually a strong argument too. Unless you are also suggesting a 50% drop to HB across the board for all armies. Ork players should probably just be content having a top tier codex with 30 point smasha guns.

Aaaaaand you lost what little credibility you may have had left. If you seriously think that a big shoota costing 6 points is reasonable because we have undercosted smasha guns then you can't blame people for not taking you seriously. By that logic, you should be paying 15 points for heavy bolters since Primaris Hellblasters are one of the only competitive things marine players consistently bring to games. That'll balance them out! Swearsies!

Having an overpriced weapon is not justified by having a completely unrelated unit choice being spammed in an army, if anything it should be altered to make having weapons choices actually matter in the army and give rise to diversity in lists. But judging from your past posts, all you want are movie marines with plasma weapon-level bolt weaponry as standard while staying at the same cost.

It is justified based on the cost of other weapons comparable to it. In this thread nid devs have brought up. They are 4 point 18"range str 4 assault 3 weapons. You think a BS should cost 1 to 2 points while this weapon cost 4? It's also not uncommon for nids to bring a unit of 30 dev gaunts...so...seriously. A 4 point BS would be fine and probably be auto include in every boys unit - if it kills 1 model it pays for itself. The point about smashas is...maybe when you have some of the most undercosted shooting in the game - you shouldn't complain about an option you aren't forced to take. Just bring more smashas and dakka jets.

False equivalence. Termagants have better base BS and their entire unit can take it, meaning they can actually have a proper amount of saturation in a unit without overcommitting to an unwieldy unit size, unlike a measly 3 big shootas that is only possible if you take a full 30 man unit. Furthermore, even in the instance where we assume that both the devourer and the big shoota is comparable, how does the devourer being overpriced justify the big shoota being overpriced as well? It's like saying Ork Power Klaws don't deserve to come down in price like all the other PF equivalents in the next CA because Big Choppas are cheap and good hurr durr, just spam those.

Eh. Smasha: 35 pts. BS4. 48" range. D3 Shots. 2d6 equal or greater than Toughness of target to Wound. -4 AP. D6 Damage. On average, that's 1 hit, a 41.7% chance to Wound a T8 target, assuming a 5++ a 27.8% chance to move to Damage. So, roughly a 1 in 4 chance to deal 3.5 Damage to their prefered targets, who generally have about 3x that amount. This on a T5, W6, Sv4+ platform that can only move 3" a turn and is practically impossible to put in Cover or out of LOS, and has a large footprint to manage. It also cannot benefit from any Stratagems nor Kultur. Not all that impressive compared to a lot of other things we got floating around in the various books. Anything that will take down a Tac Squad will just as easily take down a Smasha.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Xenomancer: Marines suck!
Also Xenomancer: Orks should not be better than marines.

Orks are top tier and marines are bottom. My logical argument is actually a buff to a big shoota at 4 points has literally nothing to do with marines. Because dakka dakka and assault rule and str 5 compared to a 2 point stubber you can't charge less than 4 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DrGiggles wrote:
I want to hear the argument for 6 points.

HB is 10 points is probably the only argument for 6 point BS. It's actually a strong argument too. Unless you are also suggesting a 50% drop to HB across the board for all armies. Ork players should probably just be content having a top tier codex with 30 point smasha guns.

Aaaaaand you lost what little credibility you may have had left. If you seriously think that a big shoota costing 6 points is reasonable because we have undercosted smasha guns then you can't blame people for not taking you seriously. By that logic, you should be paying 15 points for heavy bolters since Primaris Hellblasters are one of the only competitive things marine players consistently bring to games. That'll balance them out! Swearsies!

Having an overpriced weapon is not justified by having a completely unrelated unit choice being spammed in an army, if anything it should be altered to make having weapons choices actually matter in the army and give rise to diversity in lists. But judging from your past posts, all you want are movie marines with plasma weapon-level bolt weaponry as standard while staying at the same cost.

It is justified based on the cost of other weapons comparable to it. In this thread nid devs have brought up. They are 4 point 18"range str 4 assault 3 weapons. You think a BS should cost 1 to 2 points while this weapon cost 4? It's also not uncommon for nids to bring a unit of 30 dev gaunts...so...seriously. A 4 point BS would be fine and probably be auto include in every boys unit - if it kills 1 model it pays for itself. The point about smashas is...maybe when you have some of the most undercosted shooting in the game - you shouldn't complain about an option you aren't forced to take. Just bring more smashas and dakka jets.

False equivalence. Termagants have better base BS and their entire unit can take it, meaning they can actually have a proper amount of saturation in a unit without overcommitting to an unwieldy unit size, unlike a measly 3 big shootas that is only possible if you take a full 30 man unit. Furthermore, even in the instance where we assume that both the devourer and the big shoota is comparable, how does the devourer being overpriced justify the big shoota being overpriced as well? It's like saying Ork Power Klaws don't deserve to come down in price like all the other PF equivalents in the next CA because Big Choppas are cheap and good hurr durr, just spam those.

You are right - it is false equivalence. The BS is quite superior to the Dev but you want it to cost less...Why should the BS get a point drop and not every comparably overcosted weapon? Listen to what I am saying stop projecting on me. Game balance is what I want. A dude said he wanted to see the argument for a 6 point BS and I gave him a pretty good one with a HB costing 10. Power Claws obviously need to come down because their comparable weapons also came down.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flandarz wrote:
Eh. Smasha: 35 pts. BS4. 48" range. D3 Shots. 2d6 equal or greater than Toughness of target to Wound. -4 AP. D6 Damage. On average, that's 1 hit, a 41.7% chance to Wound a T8 target, assuming a 5++ a 27.8% chance to move to Damage. So, roughly a 1 in 4 chance to deal 3.5 Damage to their prefered targets, who generally have about 3x that amount. This on a T5, W6, Sv4+ platform that can only move 3" a turn and is practically impossible to put in Cover or out of LOS, and has a large footprint to manage. It also cannot benefit from any Stratagems nor Kultur. Not all that impressive compared to a lot of other things we got floating around in the various books. Anything that will take down a Tac Squad will just as easily take down a Smasha.

Please stop. It averages more hits than a marine with a rocket launcher. With more AP. The possibility of 3 or more hits and AP-4 or something absurd? It's also quite tough for it's points. It's indefensible. Don't even bother with it. It's undercosted.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Xenomancer: Marines suck!
Also Xenomancer: Orks should not be better than marines.

Orks are top tier and marines are bottom. My logical argument is actually a buff to a big shoota at 4 points has literally nothing to do with marines. Because dakka dakka and assault rule and str 5 compared to a 2 point stubber you can't charge less than 4 points.

Oh I get it. It's exactly how all marines are fine because Gulliman exists, right?

I suggest at least reading the thread before you make even more of a fool out of yourself.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Xenomancer: Marines suck!
Also Xenomancer: Orks should not be better than marines.

Orks are top tier and marines are bottom. My logical argument is actually a buff to a big shoota at 4 points has literally nothing to do with marines. Because dakka dakka and assault rule and str 5 compared to a 2 point stubber you can't charge less than 4 points.

Oh I get it. It's exactly how all marines are fine because Gulliman exists, right?

I thought we were talking about weapons. What are we to compare weapons to if not other weapons?

 Xenomancers wrote:
You are right - it is false equivalence. The BS is quite superior to the Dev but you want it to cost less...Why should the BS get a point drop and not every comparably overcosted weapon? Listen to what I am saying stop projecting on me. Game balance is what I want. A dude said he wanted to see the argument for a 6 point BS and I gave him a pretty good one with a HB costing 10. Power Claws obviously need to come down because their comparable weapons also came down.

I don't even know where to start. Ork players want the big shoota to be a useful option. Your argument is that is should be useless because other completely unrelated guns are useless too, and then suggest that a terrible option should cost even more while patting yourself on the should how well though out that argument is?
You have no clue what game balance is. Matt Ward has a better grasp of game balance than you.

Please stop. It averages more hits than a marine with a rocket launcher. With more AP. The possibility of 3 or more hits and AP-4 or something absurd? It's also quite tough for it's points. It's indefensible. Don't even bother with it. It's undercosted.

It's funny how you always pull the missile launcher out of your rear when you want to make a point instead of an actually competitive option. Missle launchers are awesome compared to bubblechukkas, they should go up in points!

 Eonfuzz wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Comparing weapons across codexes is usually not particularly useful. That said, 5 points seems like an ok price. Could be cheaper.

A Tyranid Deathspitter is 24" range, S5 AP -1 on BS 3-4+ platforms, and is 5 points. Though the minimum cost for such platform is 20, I think.

Hold up, you're saying 5 points is an okay price versus:
-1 AP, +2 or +3 BS and -12"?

I'd take the deathspitter over a big shoota any day.
Dont forget the +12" is basically useless for an Ork, as they will be running or advancing anyway

12" extra range, especially at the 24-36 band is definitely not useless. Since the Shootas are assault, they can still shoot while advancing too. Sure, it's a 6+, but shots are shots.

I think the more interesting question is: "What targets do you shoot big shootas at to get a good points return." Which I think is:
(chance to wound) x (point per wound of target) - - - - - vs. Space Marines (.333 x .666 x .333 x 3) x (13) = 2.8. So in two rounds of firing a 5 point shoota makes its points back. 4 rounds if it's advancing.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I thought we were talking about weapons. What are we to compare weapons to if not other weapons?

Do you really want me to quote back to you all your half-baked arguments about dakka³, ork BS and other things which are not part of the weapon?
Do you really not understand that a different codex with different support auras, different stat lines, different options, different stratagems and different army traits should have an impact on how much a weapon should cost in the context of that codex?

That's like saying Assault Marines need a nerf because the Chainsword and Aeldari Blade cost the same (on the same models no less), but the Chainsword is better.

And obviously Marines are fine with being nerfed becasue Gman is good.

Clearly, not a solid argument.

I think Xenomancer is borderline trolling at this point tbh.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I thought we were talking about weapons. What are we to compare weapons to if not other weapons?

Do you really want me to quote back to you all your half-baked arguments about dakka³, ork BS and other things which are not part of the weapon?
Do you really not understand that a different codex with different support auras, different stat lines, different options, different stratagems and different army traits should have an impact on how much a weapon should cost in the context of that codex?

Imo one point can be made.
Alot of csm /sm/ Ork equipment is overpriced due to specific expected overperfprmance combination, be they Guilliman or klan kultures etc.

Imo it leads to the clear combo wombo or home Syndrome that many dexes have.
Oblits are always Slaanesh etc.
Such things.

 Grimskul wrote:
I think Xenomancer is borderline trolling at this point tbh.

We spent several pages a while back discussing hyperbole a while back, and discovered he simply uses rhetoric devices he's encountered, without knowing or caring what they mean or say. So it's not actual trolling.

If you have math that contradicts my own on the properties of a Smasha, then I'm more than willing to see it. Of course, maybe this is from your personal experience. I could see someone who runs a vehicle-heavy list taking askance with the Smasha. Of course, the other side of the coin is that anyone who runs an infantry-based army is going to think Smashas are a joke.

Bharring wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
I think Xenomancer is borderline trolling at this point tbh.

We spent several pages a while back discussing hyperbole a while back, and discovered he simply uses rhetoric devices he's encountered, without knowing or caring what they mean or say. So it's not actual trolling.

Ah, so he's just ignorant, gotcha.

Kinda makes his statements worse though, if he actually believes in what he says.

 Insectum7 wrote:
12" extra range, especially at the 24-36 band is definitely not useless. Since the Shootas are assault, they can still shoot while advancing too. Sure, it's a 6+, but shots are shots.

Shots that do not hit anything are 5 points for nothing. The chance of them not hitting anything is almost 60%, the chance of not doing a single point of damage to a space marine is 80%. Granted, space marines are terrible targets for a big shoota, but "shots are shots" is only valuable in the world of averages where you kill .222 marines per turn. In reality a big shoota kills a marine every five games or so and wastes your points during all those other games.

I think the more interesting question is: "What targets do you shoot big shootas at to get a good points return." Which I think is:
(chance to wound) x (point per wound of target) - - - - - vs. Space Marines (.333 x .666 x .333 x 3) x (13) = 2.8. So in two rounds of firing a 5 point shoota makes its points back. 4 rounds if it's advancing.

Sorry. but that math is completely disconnected from reality. Without advancing, shooting for 3-4 turns averages a single dead marine. The expected turns shooting of a big shoota in a boys mob is about one turn, if its lucky it gets green tided and lives for a second, afterwards it's usually dead or in combat until dead. You also trade away the shoota for your big shoota, so the value of the upgrade is even lower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I thought we were talking about weapons. What are we to compare weapons to if not other weapons?

Do you really want me to quote back to you all your half-baked arguments about dakka³, ork BS and other things which are not part of the weapon?
Do you really not understand that a different codex with different support auras, different stat lines, different options, different stratagems and different army traits should have an impact on how much a weapon should cost in the context of that codex?

Imo one point can be made.
Alot of csm /sm/ Ork equipment is overpriced due to specific expected overperfprmance combination, be they Guilliman or klan kultures etc.

Imo it leads to the clear combo wombo or home Syndrome that many dexes have.
Oblits are always Slaanesh etc.
Such things.

I agree with that fully, but I don't think that's the case for the big shoota. It's simply over costed because GW saw some value in it that doesn't exist, neither math nor experience supports them being worth 5 pts in the context of the ork army - not even when putting them on bad moons shoota boyz and shooting them twice with all the stratagems you could think of.
Most of GW's designers aren't ork players, so their thoughts are probably the same as those shared by other non-ork players in this thread, thinking of them being a decent weapons for an imperial gun line army and costing it as such.

Actually the point was, that it was overcosted as a knee jerk reaction from gw.

It certainly got rolled under the bus for dakka ^3 Etc.

And or it remains 5 pts because it always was 5 pts. Which is just as likely.
But again the guns fine the body it's on is just not made for shooting. That and the price, because as you said why bother with a 5 pts upgrade when the carrier anyways will only shoot 1 -2 times per battle and has little to no chance of actually getting use else out of it.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
12" extra range, especially at the 24-36 band is definitely not useless. Since the Shootas are assault, they can still shoot while advancing too. Sure, it's a 6+, but shots are shots.

Shots that do not hit anything are 5 points for nothing. The chance of them not hitting anything is almost 60%, the chance of not doing a single point of damage to a space marine is 80%. Granted, space marines are terrible targets for a big shoota, but "shots are shots" is only valuable in the world of averages where you kill .222 marines per turn. In reality a big shoota kills a marine every five games or so and wastes your points during all those other games.

I think the more interesting question is: "What targets do you shoot big shootas at to get a good points return." Which I think is:
(chance to wound) x (point per wound of target) - - - - - vs. Space Marines (.333 x .666 x .333 x 3) x (13) = 2.8. So in two rounds of firing a 5 point shoota makes its points back. 4 rounds if it's advancing.

Sorry. but that math is completely disconnected from reality. Without advancing, shooting for 3-4 turns averages a single dead marine. The expected turns shooting of a big shoota in a boys mob is about one turn, if its lucky it gets green tided and lives for a second, afterwards it's usually dead or in combat until dead. You also trade away the shoota for your big shoota, so the value of the upgrade is even lower.

Well. . . . if you're expecting to advance with your Boyz every game, then maybe don't pay the points for the Big Shoota. Weapons aren't necessarily costed around specific tactics. I'm seeing that 3 big Shootas at 15 points can return a 13 point kill every round if you are playing to it. That doesn't seem so bad.

Also, why is the math off?

3 Big Shootas are 9 shots. With DDD, that's 7/2 hits.
Against MEQs, that's 7/3 wounds.
7/9 failed saves.

So, assuming the Marines aren't Ravenguard or Iron Hands, aren't in cover, and the Boyz focus fire on one squad, they'll usually kill a Marine per turn with their Big Shootas. Which isn't even a full return on points, and it's targeting someone who's generally considered overcosted.

Compare to a Storm Bolter-4 shots get 8/3 hits, 4/3 wounds, and 4/9 failed saves against a MEQ. That's nearly THREE TIMES its cost in terms of damage dealt! Clearly, Storm Bolters are ridiculously OP and should cost at least six points.

The math isn't off, it is disconected from reality.
He means that your scenario is good mathemathically just not happening, ergo to be diaregarded in this debate.

And frankly i tend to agree on this with jimdah in this case.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
12" extra range, especially at the 24-36 band is definitely not useless. Since the Shootas are assault, they can still shoot while advancing too. Sure, it's a 6+, but shots are shots.

Shots that do not hit anything are 5 points for nothing. The chance of them not hitting anything is almost 60%, the chance of not doing a single point of damage to a space marine is 80%. Granted, space marines are terrible targets for a big shoota, but "shots are shots" is only valuable in the world of averages where you kill .222 marines per turn. In reality a big shoota kills a marine every five games or so and wastes your points during all those other games.

I think the more interesting question is: "What targets do you shoot big shootas at to get a good points return." Which I think is:
(chance to wound) x (point per wound of target) - - - - - vs. Space Marines (.333 x .666 x .333 x 3) x (13) = 2.8. So in two rounds of firing a 5 point shoota makes its points back. 4 rounds if it's advancing.

Sorry. but that math is completely disconnected from reality. Without advancing, shooting for 3-4 turns averages a single dead marine. The expected turns shooting of a big shoota in a boys mob is about one turn, if its lucky it gets green tided and lives for a second, afterwards it's usually dead or in combat until dead. You also trade away the shoota for your big shoota, so the value of the upgrade is even lower.

Well. . . . if you're expecting to advance with your Boyz every game, then maybe don't pay the points for the Big Shoota. Weapons aren't necessarily costed around specific tactics. I'm seeing that 3 big Shootas at 15 points can return a 13 point kill every round if you are playing to it. That doesn't seem so bad.

Also, why is the math off?

One of the problems is that in order to get three big shootas you need to take a lot of points worth of Boyz with either sluggas and choppas or regular shootas, and those need to get close to the enemy to be worth taking so more often than not we end up advancing them.

Remember how in previous editions it used to be frustrating to have an anti-tank weapon in a Tac Squad because you were either wasting the bolters or wasting the upgraded weapon due to not being able to split fire? The problem with Big Shootas and Boyz is kind of like that, only instead of being due to split fire rules it's more due to being in a unit that likes to be in close, preferably in melee where the Big Shoota is wasted.

Yeah, we can just not take Big Shootas, but that's kind of the point. There's not a reason to take them and that's a shame. Most armies have similar problems, this thread is just about Orks and Big Shootas in particular.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
12" extra range, especially at the 24-36 band is definitely not useless. Since the Shootas are assault, they can still shoot while advancing too. Sure, it's a 6+, but shots are shots.

Shots that do not hit anything are 5 points for nothing. The chance of them not hitting anything is almost 60%, the chance of not doing a single point of damage to a space marine is 80%. Granted, space marines are terrible targets for a big shoota, but "shots are shots" is only valuable in the world of averages where you kill .222 marines per turn. In reality a big shoota kills a marine every five games or so and wastes your points during all those other games.

I think the more interesting question is: "What targets do you shoot big shootas at to get a good points return." Which I think is:
(chance to wound) x (point per wound of target) - - - - - vs. Space Marines (.333 x .666 x .333 x 3) x (13) = 2.8. So in two rounds of firing a 5 point shoota makes its points back. 4 rounds if it's advancing.

Sorry. but that math is completely disconnected from reality. Without advancing, shooting for 3-4 turns averages a single dead marine. The expected turns shooting of a big shoota in a boys mob is about one turn, if its lucky it gets green tided and lives for a second, afterwards it's usually dead or in combat until dead. You also trade away the shoota for your big shoota, so the value of the upgrade is even lower.

Well. . . . if you're expecting to advance with your Boyz every game, then maybe don't pay the points for the Big Shoota. Weapons aren't necessarily costed around specific tactics. I'm seeing that 3 big Shootas at 15 points can return a 13 point kill every round if you are playing to it. That doesn't seem so bad.

Also, why is the math off?

One of the problems is that in order to get three big shootas you need to take a lot of points worth of Boyz with either sluggas and choppas or regular shootas, and those need to get close to the enemy to be worth taking so more often than not we end up advancing them.

Remember how in previous editions it used to be frustrating to have an anti-tank weapon in a Tac Squad because you were either wasting the bolters or wasting the upgraded weapon due to not being able to split fire? The problem with Big Shootas and Boyz is kind of like that, only instead of being due to split fire rules it's more due to being in a unit that likes to be in close, preferably in melee where the Big Shoota is wasted.

Yeah, we can just not take Big Shootas, but that's kind of the point. There's not a reason to take them and that's a shame. Most armies have similar problems, this thread is just about Orks and Big Shootas in particular.

Ok, so I'm afraid I am not up to par on my knowledge of Orks, currently. But I definitely recall big mobs of shoota boys being pretty awesome in earlier editions. Is this not the case anymore?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
3 Big Shootas are 9 shots. With DDD, that's 7/2 hits.
Against MEQs, that's 7/3 wounds.
7/9 failed saves.

So, assuming the Marines aren't Ravenguard or Iron Hands, aren't in cover, and the Boyz focus fire on one squad, they'll usually kill a Marine per turn with their Big Shootas. Which isn't even a full return on points, and it's targeting someone who's generally considered overcosted.

Compare to a Storm Bolter-4 shots get 8/3 hits, 4/3 wounds, and 4/9 failed saves against a MEQ. That's nearly THREE TIMES its cost in terms of damage dealt! Clearly, Storm Bolters are ridiculously OP and should cost at least six points.

Storm Bolters, unless wielded by a Terminator or something similar only get 4 shots standing still, or within 12, so it's not really a comparable scenario, imo.

Except that, to use a Shoota Boy Mob, you lose one of the advantages of a Big Shoota entirely (range) and you're also replacing 2 S4 shots with 3 S5.

For reference, a mob of 30 Shoota Boyz does, to MEQs...
60 S4 shots
70/3 hits
35/3 wounds
35/9 or just under 4 dead MEQs.

Replace three Shootas with Big Shootas, and you get
54 S4 shots
21 hits
21/2 wounds
7/2 or 3.5 dead MEQs

Plus...

9 S5 shots
7/2 hits
7/3 wounds
7/9 or just under 1 dead MEQ

Totaled, that's 77/18 dead MEQs from the Big Shoota Mob, as compared to 70/18 from the regular mob.

That's, surprisingly, EXACTLY a 10% improvement in shooting power against MEQs. Like... Legitimately surprised, didn't expect that to be that neat. And for about a 7% increase in points.

But, compare that to (again) a Storm Bolter. For 2 Points, you increase a Tactical Squad's shooting power by 20%. That's twice as effective an upgrade as the three Big Shootas, for less than half the percentage increase in points.

Edit:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Storm Bolters, unless wielded by a Terminator or something similar only get 4 shots standing still, or within 12, so it's not really a comparable scenario, imo.

If you assume the Big Shoota is always not Advancing, despite being "better" for being Assault, I can damn well assume that Marines (who love to castle up) are standing still.

Edit II: Oh, also, even on the move AND at 12"-24", a Storm Bolter still earns one and a half times its points back shooting at a stock Tac Marine. Which is better than can be said for Big Shootas under OPTIMAL circumstances.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
12" extra range, especially at the 24-36 band is definitely not useless. Since the Shootas are assault, they can still shoot while advancing too. Sure, it's a 6+, but shots are shots.

Shots that do not hit anything are 5 points for nothing. The chance of them not hitting anything is almost 60%, the chance of not doing a single point of damage to a space marine is 80%. Granted, space marines are terrible targets for a big shoota, but "shots are shots" is only valuable in the world of averages where you kill .222 marines per turn. In reality a big shoota kills a marine every five games or so and wastes your points during all those other games.

I think the more interesting question is: "What targets do you shoot big shootas at to get a good points return." Which I think is:
(chance to wound) x (point per wound of target) - - - - - vs. Space Marines (.333 x .666 x .333 x 3) x (13) = 2.8. So in two rounds of firing a 5 point shoota makes its points back. 4 rounds if it's advancing.

Sorry. but that math is completely disconnected from reality. Without advancing, shooting for 3-4 turns averages a single dead marine. The expected turns shooting of a big shoota in a boys mob is about one turn, if its lucky it gets green tided and lives for a second, afterwards it's usually dead or in combat until dead. You also trade away the shoota for your big shoota, so the value of the upgrade is even lower.

Well. . . . if you're expecting to advance with your Boyz every game, then maybe don't pay the points for the Big Shoota. Weapons aren't necessarily costed around specific tactics. I'm seeing that 3 big Shootas at 15 points can return a 13 point kill every round if you are playing to it. That doesn't seem so bad.

Also, why is the math off?

One of the problems is that in order to get three big shootas you need to take a lot of points worth of Boyz with either sluggas and choppas or regular shootas, and those need to get close to the enemy to be worth taking so more often than not we end up advancing them.

Remember how in previous editions it used to be frustrating to have an anti-tank weapon in a Tac Squad because you were either wasting the bolters or wasting the upgraded weapon due to not being able to split fire? The problem with Big Shootas and Boyz is kind of like that, only instead of being due to split fire rules it's more due to being in a unit that likes to be in close, preferably in melee where the Big Shoota is wasted.

Yeah, we can just not take Big Shootas, but that's kind of the point. There's not a reason to take them and that's a shame. Most armies have similar problems, this thread is just about Orks and Big Shootas in particular.

Ok, so I'm afraid I am not up to par on my knowledge of Orks, currently. But I definitely recall big mobs of shoota boys being pretty awesome in earlier editions. Is this not the case anymore?

Shoota Boyz are good, but I think they're still a unit best suited to running at the enemy and getting into melee. Shootas have a short range, and Boyz are pretty good at melee even without a Choppa. I think Shoota Boyz are a melee unit that trades what is often overkill melee damage for a small amount of ranged damage.

You don't lose the advantage of range if you're planning on moving the unit forward and bringing the other guns to bear. The enemy line is not 1 dimensional, it has depth. The Big Shoota can hit targets beyond the front line, and those might be more valuable targets to spatter with S5 shots. As noted, the unit doesn't all need to fire at the same thing.

The second observation is that you've shown that the firepower output is at a better damage-to-cost ratio than the unit without big shootas, so that seems like a plus, regardless of the weapon-to-weapon cost comparison to the Storm Bolter.

As said before, weapon costs from army to army don't translate directly. I wonder how the points of model+weapon compare between the two, for starters, and even that isn't really a true metric either.

It seems like you've potentially got a mixed-role unit that leans heavily towards aggression and CC, and you can spend a few more points to make said unit a bit more point-efficient at it's secondary shooting role. Which is sort of the opposite of a Tac Sqauad, a Tac Squad being a mixed-role unit with an emphasis on defensive shooting, that can also spend a few points to be a little more efficient at it's CC role. Something like that. In which case the Big Shoota is sort of in the same spot as a Power Sword. It can add a little, but is not at all necessary to the squad for it to fulfill its primary role.

I did a little more math and it looks to me that a Big Shoota is amusingly about as point efficient at shooting a Castellan as it is shooting a Tac Marine, by virtue of its S5.

Quick, someone get the pitchforks! Xenomancer is posting inane ramblings again!

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Quick, someone get the pitchforks! Xenomancer is posting inane ramblings again!

Yes pointing out the inferior weapons cost more in a lot of cases is literal insanity. How many points should a devourer cost is a BS is 2 points? 1 or 0 - it is vastly inferior. Weapons ARE NOT costed based on the bs of a unit using it or a units ability to move and shoot it. The only place that really happens is in the guard codex and a few other rare conditions. A 5 point BS isn't even close to a problem compared to other bad weapons. What about the melta gun? Or the assault cannon? or the HB? Even the hurricane bolter is very overcosted compared to a storm bolter. The OP title question is. What is a fair price? What is a fair price if you don't compare it to similar weapons? Unless you think orks should just pay less for their weapons because they are having such a hard time already outshooting premium shooting factions.


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 JNAProductions wrote:
3 Big Shootas are 9 shots. With DDD, that's 7/2 hits.
Against MEQs, that's 7/3 wounds.
7/9 failed saves.

So, assuming the Marines aren't Ravenguard or Iron Hands, aren't in cover, and the Boyz focus fire on one squad, they'll usually kill a Marine per turn with their Big Shootas. Which isn't even a full return on points, and it's targeting someone who's generally considered overcosted.

Compare to a Storm Bolter-4 shots get 8/3 hits, 4/3 wounds, and 4/9 failed saves against a MEQ. That's nearly THREE TIMES its cost in terms of damage dealt! Clearly, Storm Bolters are ridiculously OP and should cost at least six points.

You should compare their ability to kill orks. Not ability against each other. Consdiering the range advantage and the fact storm bolters typically only get 4 shots at range 12 plus the assault rule on the BS which is actually amazing in an evil suns army. Nor can you load up tactical marines with storm bolters ether. It is more of a specialist weapon. If you could put a storm bolter on every marine ofc you would. See how that works out for GK though...it really isn't effective. Unless you are deathwatch - in which case you are spending 18-20 points per model to get that.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Quick, someone get the pitchforks! Xenomancer is posting inane ramblings again!

Yes pointing out the inferior weapons cost more in a lot of cases is literal insanity. How many points should a devourer cost is a BS is 2 points? 1 or 0 - it is vastly inferior. Weapons ARE NOT costed based on the bs of a unit using it or a units ability to move and shoot it. The only place that really happens is in the guard codex and a few other rare conditions. A 5 point BS isn't even close to a problem compared to other bad weapons. What about the melta gun? Or the assault cannon? or the HB? Even the hurricane bolter is very overcosted compared to a storm bolter. The OP title question is. What is a fair price? What is a fair price if you don't compare it to similar weapons? Unless you think orks should just pay less for their weapons because they are having such a hard time already outshooting premium shooting factions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
3 Big Shootas are 9 shots. With DDD, that's 7/2 hits.
Against MEQs, that's 7/3 wounds.
7/9 failed saves.

So, assuming the Marines aren't Ravenguard or Iron Hands, aren't in cover, and the Boyz focus fire on one squad, they'll usually kill a Marine per turn with their Big Shootas. Which isn't even a full return on points, and it's targeting someone who's generally considered overcosted.

Compare to a Storm Bolter-4 shots get 8/3 hits, 4/3 wounds, and 4/9 failed saves against a MEQ. That's nearly THREE TIMES its cost in terms of damage dealt! Clearly, Storm Bolters are ridiculously OP and should cost at least six points.

You should compare their ability to kill orks. Not ability against each other. Consdiering the range advantage and the fact storm bolters typically only get 4 shots at range 12 plus the assault rule on the BS which is actually amazing in an evil suns army. Nor can you load up tactical marines with storm bolters ether. It is more of a specialist weapon. If you could put a storm bolter on every marine ofc you would. See how that works out for GK though...it really isn't effective. Unless you are deathwatch - in which case you are spending 18-20 points per model to get that.

Just to be clear, we're allowed to assume that the Orks are one specific subfaction, taking an upgrade worth nearly another entire model, and not locked in combat for any significant period of time... But we're NOT allowed to assume Marines are so much as standing still?

And why should we compare Orks to Orks and MEQs to MEQs? But, I'll run the math against Orks, sure.

3 S5 BS5+ DDD! Shots
7/6 hits
7/9 wounds
35/54 unsaved, or .65 Boyz

4 S4 BS 3+ Shots
8/3 hits
4/3 wounds
10/9 unsaved, or 1.11 Boyz

Even halving the number of shots on the Storm Bolter makes it only a little worse than a Big Shoota, for less than half the price.