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 Xenomancers wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Quick, someone get the pitchforks! Xenomancer is posting inane ramblings again!

Yes pointing out the inferior weapons cost more in a lot of cases is literal insanity. How many points should a devourer cost is a BS is 2 points? 1 or 0 - it is vastly inferior. Weapons ARE NOT costed based on the bs of a unit using it or a units ability to move and shoot it. The only place that really happens is in the guard codex and a few other rare conditions. A 5 point BS isn't even close to a problem compared to other bad weapons. What about the melta gun? Or the assault cannon? or the HB? Even the hurricane bolter is very overcosted compared to a storm bolter. The OP title question is. What is a fair price? What is a fair price if you don't compare it to similar weapons? Unless you think orks should just pay less for their weapons because they are having such a hard time already outshooting premium shooting factions.


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 JNAProductions wrote:
3 Big Shootas are 9 shots. With DDD, that's 7/2 hits.
Against MEQs, that's 7/3 wounds.
7/9 failed saves.

So, assuming the Marines aren't Ravenguard or Iron Hands, aren't in cover, and the Boyz focus fire on one squad, they'll usually kill a Marine per turn with their Big Shootas. Which isn't even a full return on points, and it's targeting someone who's generally considered overcosted.

Compare to a Storm Bolter-4 shots get 8/3 hits, 4/3 wounds, and 4/9 failed saves against a MEQ. That's nearly THREE TIMES its cost in terms of damage dealt! Clearly, Storm Bolters are ridiculously OP and should cost at least six points.

You should compare their ability to kill orks. Not ability against each other. Consdiering the range advantage and the fact storm bolters typically only get 4 shots at range 12 plus the assault rule on the BS which is actually amazing in an evil suns army. Nor can you load up tactical marines with storm bolters ether. It is more of a specialist weapon. If you could put a storm bolter on every marine ofc you would. See how that works out for GK though...it really isn't effective. Unless you are deathwatch - in which case you are spending 18-20 points per model to get that.

It's interesting how you seem to dodge all the points me and Jidmah have made already regarding how your attempts to equate with "Orks OP" = Big shootas cost is right/should be more expensive.

Honestly, you've embarrassed yourself enough already. I don't see why you adamantly continue to think big shootas shouldn't come down in price due to some chip on your shoulder regarding marines.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Quick, someone get the pitchforks! Xenomancer is posting inane ramblings again!

Yes pointing out the inferior weapons cost more in a lot of cases is literal insanity. How many points should a devourer cost is a BS is 2 points? 1 or 0 - it is vastly inferior. Weapons ARE NOT costed based on the bs of a unit using it or a units ability to move and shoot it. The only place that really happens is in the guard codex and a few other rare conditions. A 5 point BS isn't even close to a problem compared to other bad weapons. What about the melta gun? Or the assault cannon? or the HB? Even the hurricane bolter is very overcosted compared to a storm bolter. The OP title question is. What is a fair price? What is a fair price if you don't compare it to similar weapons? Unless you think orks should just pay less for their weapons because they are having such a hard time already outshooting premium shooting factions.


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 JNAProductions wrote:
3 Big Shootas are 9 shots. With DDD, that's 7/2 hits.
Against MEQs, that's 7/3 wounds.
7/9 failed saves.

So, assuming the Marines aren't Ravenguard or Iron Hands, aren't in cover, and the Boyz focus fire on one squad, they'll usually kill a Marine per turn with their Big Shootas. Which isn't even a full return on points, and it's targeting someone who's generally considered overcosted.

Compare to a Storm Bolter-4 shots get 8/3 hits, 4/3 wounds, and 4/9 failed saves against a MEQ. That's nearly THREE TIMES its cost in terms of damage dealt! Clearly, Storm Bolters are ridiculously OP and should cost at least six points.

You should compare their ability to kill orks. Not ability against each other. Consdiering the range advantage and the fact storm bolters typically only get 4 shots at range 12 plus the assault rule on the BS which is actually amazing in an evil suns army. Nor can you load up tactical marines with storm bolters ether. It is more of a specialist weapon. If you could put a storm bolter on every marine ofc you would. See how that works out for GK though...it really isn't effective. Unless you are deathwatch - in which case you are spending 18-20 points per model to get that.

Just to be clear, we're allowed to assume that the Orks are one specific subfaction, taking an upgrade worth nearly another entire model, and not locked in combat for any significant period of time... But we're NOT allowed to assume Marines are so much as standing still?

And why should we compare Orks to Orks and MEQs to MEQs? But, I'll run the math against Orks, sure.

3 S5 BS5+ DDD! Shots
7/6 hits
7/9 wounds
35/54 unsaved, or .65 Boyz

4 S4 BS 3+ Shots
8/3 hits
4/3 wounds
10/9 unsaved, or 1.11 Boyz

Even halving the number of shots on the Storm Bolter makes it only a little worse than a Big Shoota, for less than half the price.

Being in range at 24" without moving is not something that occurs turn 1 practically ever. Turn 2 maybe.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Being in range at 24" without moving is not something that occurs turn 1 practically ever. Turn 2 maybe.

Eonfuzz's guide how to shoot stormbolters turn 1.

1. Place models on table
2. Shoot with models

In all seriousness, how do you not see that the Big Shoota statline is worse than a Stormbolter statline? Are you riding the Speshmarhyne train with only a one way ticket?
Lets assume it's a normal game, Ork Big Shootas are shooting and hitting on a 6+ because they advanced, Stormbolters are hitting on a 3+.

That's quite a lot less efficient. I was thinking of making a more mocking post, but lets do the maths for one last time.
3 shots * 1/6 = 0.5
DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA = 3 shots * 1/6 * 1/6 = 0.027

That's 0.527 hits from a 5 point weapon.

Now lets do a typical storm bolter turn 1
2 shots * 4/6 = 1.3333 shots

That's 1.3333 hits from a 2 point weapon.
But wait, lets do the assumption that you're using the "Counter Orks Faction" like a true waac
2 shots * 5/6 = 1.6666 shots

That's 1.6666 hits from a 2 point weapon.

BIG THUNK TIME
Lets Balance the Storm Bolter as if an Ork was using it!!!!11!!
Okay so first we need to make it hit as much as an Ork does

Just for the prestige of firing a storm bolter, you get this ability:
Gun too big for your hands Storm bolter gets -2 to hit when firing

The best part is, at Rapid Fire 2 it's still more efficient than the big shooter while within half range, while also hitting a bunch more too!
Now that it's got a workable stat line we need to rejig the costs, lets make it cost 6 points because after all the dudes wielding it are tougher to kill, and it has +1 BS over your standard Big Shoota.

A 6 point storm bolter sounds great, we should advocate for that.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Quick, someone get the pitchforks! Xenomancer is posting inane ramblings again!

Yes pointing out the inferior weapons cost more in a lot of cases is literal insanity. How many points should a devourer cost is a BS is 2 points? 1 or 0 - it is vastly inferior. Weapons ARE NOT costed based on the bs of a unit using it or a units ability to move and shoot it. The only place that really happens is in the guard codex and a few other rare conditions. A 5 point BS isn't even close to a problem compared to other bad weapons. What about the melta gun? Or the assault cannon? or the HB? Even the hurricane bolter is very overcosted compared to a storm bolter. The OP title question is. What is a fair price? What is a fair price if you don't compare it to similar weapons? Unless you think orks should just pay less for their weapons because they are having such a hard time already outshooting premium shooting factions.


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 JNAProductions wrote:
3 Big Shootas are 9 shots. With DDD, that's 7/2 hits.
Against MEQs, that's 7/3 wounds.
7/9 failed saves.

So, assuming the Marines aren't Ravenguard or Iron Hands, aren't in cover, and the Boyz focus fire on one squad, they'll usually kill a Marine per turn with their Big Shootas. Which isn't even a full return on points, and it's targeting someone who's generally considered overcosted.

Compare to a Storm Bolter-4 shots get 8/3 hits, 4/3 wounds, and 4/9 failed saves against a MEQ. That's nearly THREE TIMES its cost in terms of damage dealt! Clearly, Storm Bolters are ridiculously OP and should cost at least six points.

You should compare their ability to kill orks. Not ability against each other. Consdiering the range advantage and the fact storm bolters typically only get 4 shots at range 12 plus the assault rule on the BS which is actually amazing in an evil suns army. Nor can you load up tactical marines with storm bolters ether. It is more of a specialist weapon. If you could put a storm bolter on every marine ofc you would. See how that works out for GK though...it really isn't effective. Unless you are deathwatch - in which case you are spending 18-20 points per model to get that.

It's interesting how you seem to dodge all the points me and Jidmah have made already regarding how your attempts to equate with "Orks OP" = Big shootas cost is right/should be more expensive.

Honestly, you've embarrassed yourself enough already. I don't see why you adamantly continue to think big shootas shouldn't come down in price due to some chip on your shoulder regarding marines.

You spouting nonsense doesn't embarrass me. I'd probably be embarrassed saying things like storm bolters should cost 6 points though.BS should not be more expensive. Maybe it should cost 4. I've demonstrated why. Using comparable weapons. Assault > Heavy. Str4 < Str 5. Dakka Dakka more or less mitigates thje bs 5 (it's kinda like bs 4.6 not that this really should mitigate the cost anyways - you pay points for your stats and weapons are completely seperate)
Stubber 2 points give it assault now it cost 3 give it str 5 now it costs 4. You know how much I'd pay to give some of my heavy weapons assault rule? Probably 20% to 30% more in some cases. You are taking things like that for granted.

So, you just agreed the Space Marine version of a Big Shoota is a drongo's dream?

You understand that "6 point gun" is mathematically superior to the Big Shoota? A storm bolter that gets -2 to hit AND +4 points is still better than a Big Shoota.

And yet you don't think the Big Shoota should go down in cost. What drivel.

The big shoota is better than a storm bolter LOL.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The big shoota is better than a storm bolter LOL.

Write out the maths that proves your point LOL.

 Eonfuzz wrote:
So, you just agreed the Space Marine version of a Big Shoota is a drongo's dream?

You understand that "6 point gun" is mathematically superior to the Big Shoota? A storm bolter that gets -2 to hit AND +4 points is still better than a Big Shoota.

And yet you don't think the Big Shoota should go down in cost. What drivel.

I have said the BS should go down in cost to 4. It should not cost 2 points. It's asinine to suggest that IMO.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
So, you just agreed the Space Marine version of a Big Shoota is a drongo's dream?

You understand that "6 point gun" is mathematically superior to the Big Shoota? A storm bolter that gets -2 to hit AND +4 points is still better than a Big Shoota.

And yet you don't think the Big Shoota should go down in cost. What drivel.

I have said the BS should go down in cost to 4. It should not cost 2 points. It's asinine to suggest that IMO.

Write out the maths that proves a Big Shoota is two times more efficient than a Storm Bolter LOL.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The big shoota is better than a storm bolter LOL.

Write out the maths that proves your point LOL.

No. A big shoota on an ork is what? 11 points? You havn't even mad it to a marines base price yet. Plus you have to be a vet to take one at a minimum. That will be 16 points. Perhaps 16 point models should outshoot 11 point ones under ideal conditions.

You do know on the majority of setup armies start at least 24.00001 inches apart. Therefor you don't start in these ideal conditions.


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 Eonfuzz wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
So, you just agreed the Space Marine version of a Big Shoota is a drongo's dream?

You understand that "6 point gun" is mathematically superior to the Big Shoota? A storm bolter that gets -2 to hit AND +4 points is still better than a Big Shoota.

And yet you don't think the Big Shoota should go down in cost. What drivel.

I have said the BS should go down in cost to 4. It should not cost 2 points. It's asinine to suggest that IMO.

Write out the maths that proves a Big Shoota is two times more efficient than a Storm Bolter LOL.

How efficient is the Storm bolter compared to the Big shoota if you advance?

Nuh uh, I aint doing the maths for you. It's already earlier in this thread and I know you don't listen to anything if it doesn't fit space marine one way train.

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Nuh uh, I aint doing the maths for you. It's already earlier in this thread and I know you don't listen to anything if it doesn't fit space marine one way train.

The answer is easy. You can't advance and shoot a storm bolter. Also - a bolter is technically twice as efficient as a shoota. So should the bolter cost more? It is currently free.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Nuh uh, I aint doing the maths for you. It's already earlier in this thread and I know you don't listen to anything if it doesn't fit space marine one way train.

The answer is easy. You can't advance and shoot a storm bolter. Also - a bolter is technically twice as efficient as a shoota. So should the bolter cost more? It is currently free.

Name one infantry unit with storm bolters, that you'd ever advance.


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Also, if you want the number simulations to include Dakka Dakka Dakka you may aswell include the Space Marine Reroll auras lmao, as if they're never there.

Thinking that no self respecting Mob Boss would allow some runt to have a bigger weapon than him. Ergo BS should be free option, one per unit, on the Boss.

But then, I think the Ork Boyz entry should have a ‘Choppa only’ option.

Moriarty wrote:
Thinking that no self respecting Mob Boss would allow some runt to have a bigger weapon than him. Ergo BS should be free option, one per unit, on the Boss.

But then, I think the Ork Boyz entry should have a ‘Choppa only’ option.

A Nob can take a Kustom Shoota* or Kombi-Shoota, which is different than a Big Shoota but no less snazzy.
*Index

We used to be able to give Big Shootas to Nobz, but IIRC they were really expensive.

I do wish they'd either go back to being able to buy 3x special weapons no matter the unit size or switch to one special weapon per 5 (the box actually supports that).

I know that double choppa/double slugga can be done for a few models per unit, but not the whole mob without doing a little cutting.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Nuh uh, I aint doing the maths for you. It's already earlier in this thread and I know you don't listen to anything if it doesn't fit space marine one way train.

The answer is easy. You can't advance and shoot a storm bolter. Also - a bolter is technically twice as efficient as a shoota. So should the bolter cost more? It is currently free.

Name one infantry unit with storm bolters, that you'd ever advance.


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Also, if you want the number simulations to include Dakka Dakka Dakka you may aswell include the Space Marine Reroll auras lmao, as if they're never there.

the csm squad of chosen from the black legion, when you want to try the trait before just ignoring it

I'm trying to follow the logic here as to why have people become so looked in on a stormbolter vrs a big shoota as a comparison it's not even close to having the same role.

It's an Assualt Heavy Bolter,
Guard pay 8 points on a heavy weapon on BS4+
Orks pay 5 points on an assualt weapon on BS5+
Guard pay 8 points for a heavy bolter move and hit on 5+
Orks pay 5 points for a big shoota move and hit on 5+
Guard advance and can't shoot
Orks Advance and hit on 6's

That single Ap-1 cost 3 points

That doesn't make a big shoota look super over costed?

Ice_can wrote:
I'm trying to follow the logic here as to why have people become so looked in on a stormbolter vrs a big shoota as a comparison it's not even close to having the same role.

It's an Assualt Heavy Bolter,
Guard pay 8 points on a heavy weapon on BS4+
Orks pay 5 points on an assualt weapon on BS5+
Guard pay 8 points for a heavy bolter move and hit on 5+
Orks pay 5 points for a big shoota move and hit on 5+
Guard advance and can't shoot
Orks Advance and hit on 6's

That single Ap-1 cost 3 points

That doesn't make a big shoota look super over costed?

issue is, the big shota looks not overcosted compared to a Heavy bolter because the heavy bolter is overcosted aswell.

Also application, again. the Big shoota is more like a souped up heavy stubber, which at 2 pts is actually a decent gun, personally don't belive +1 S is worth 3pts more.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
I'm trying to follow the logic here as to why have people become so looked in on a stormbolter vrs a big shoota as a comparison it's not even close to having the same role.

It's an Assualt Heavy Bolter,
Guard pay 8 points on a heavy weapon on BS4+
Orks pay 5 points on an assualt weapon on BS5+
Guard pay 8 points for a heavy bolter move and hit on 5+
Orks pay 5 points for a big shoota move and hit on 5+
Guard advance and can't shoot
Orks Advance and hit on 6's

That single Ap-1 cost 3 points

That doesn't make a big shoota look super over costed?

issue is, the big shota looks not overcosted compared to a Heavy bolter because the heavy bolter is overcosted aswell.

Also application, again. the Big shoota is more like a souped up heavy stubber, which at 2 pts is actually a decent gun, personally don't belive +1 S is worth 3pts more.

Marine's pay 10 points per heavy bolter that is fun.

Ok a heavy bolter is overcosted but by how much then?
Is a heacy bolter a 6 point or 7 point weapon or 5? You could then argue that a big shoot should be 1 or 2 points less but making it 2pts like some are calling for is a gw level overcorrection

Ice_can wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
I'm trying to follow the logic here as to why have people become so looked in on a stormbolter vrs a big shoota as a comparison it's not even close to having the same role.

It's an Assualt Heavy Bolter,
Guard pay 8 points on a heavy weapon on BS4+
Orks pay 5 points on an assualt weapon on BS5+
Guard pay 8 points for a heavy bolter move and hit on 5+
Orks pay 5 points for a big shoota move and hit on 5+
Guard advance and can't shoot
Orks Advance and hit on 6's

That single Ap-1 cost 3 points

That doesn't make a big shoota look super over costed?

issue is, the big shota looks not overcosted compared to a Heavy bolter because the heavy bolter is overcosted aswell.

Also application, again. the Big shoota is more like a souped up heavy stubber, which at 2 pts is actually a decent gun, personally don't belive +1 S is worth 3pts more.

Marine's pay 10 points per heavy bolter that is fun.

Ok a heavy bolter is overcosted but by how much then?
Is a heacy bolter a 6 point or 7 point weapon or 5? You could then argue that a big shoot should be 1 or 2 points less but making it 2pts like some are calling for is a gw level overcorrection

CSM do too pay 10 pts / HB.
And how often do you see them? Especially when the Reaper chaincannon has 2 more shots for the same price for one equipment slot?

I'll refer to the Heavy stubber, it's targets are the same, light squishy infantry, same applies to the Big shoota, same to the heavy bolter, same to the Reaper.

The reaper has one significant advantage, it is in a dex that can double it's rate and a singular weapon, meaning saturation is easily achievable. This is what makes the reaper work. (and also the reason for the rather steep pricing but atleast it is playable)

The heavy bolter and big shootason the other hand suffer for beeing too expensive and lacking saturation options. Meaning that for the output of 1 reaper, you need 2 Heavy bolters in the same squad + additional 2/3'rds of one to just equate the ammount of shots. 1 Havoc with reaper is 34 pts. 2. havocs alone are 28 pts + 20 for the heavy bolters. And we have not yet talked about VotWL which would make Heavy bolters actually decent against medium tanks, were it not for the fact that reapers again stack up better.

Ig has another issue. They pay a fairer price for the heavy bolter, but pay more for a heavy bolter then for a mortar. Which beats the heavy bolter in terms of range and LOS usage. (also averages more shots and with certain traits alot more of them)
Targets are again the same. So why pay 3 pts more for +1 S and -1 AP when you can generate more shots overall?

Now the heavy stubber shows up. And for regiments that can field them (or armies ) on line infantry, the job is the same. Now however you pay 1/8th for the equal ammount of shots, one less S and no armor penetration. The targets you want to shoot with it however remain the same, and virtually T3 targets (75% off all infantry really) treat it the same as the heavy bolter.
It isn't even a competition there.

This is also why i belive, if the stubber is worth 2 pts, which it is, the Big shoota should be 3 and the heavy bolter 4 /5 respectively. And precedence was created by the heavy stubber itself, which got it's price cut in half.

I have the feeling that we are tackling the topic from the wrong prespective. The problem with the big shoota is not it's cost IMO. As I see it, the Q should be "what is the BShoota meant to be?"

Orks don't have many options in terms of equipment. Look at the trukk, currently the ONLY (and lonely) gun it can take is the BShoota. Usually, they are reduced to anti-vehicle (rokkits and blastas) or anti-infantry (bshoota). Both rokkits and blastas arguably manage to perform. Now, bshootas don't. Their problem is the fire volume/point cost/number of shootas allowed.

Two ways to solve the problem.
A) Lower points=more bshootas.Yeah but... reducing it's cost will not increase the unit's specific fire output as GW provides rules ONLY for models included in each box. I might be wrong, but I don't think they will ever allow more than 1bshoota per 10 boys. One per truck. 4 per battlewagon. That effectively capes the number of shoots as you will only have certain number of units.
B) changing the bshoota profile. Keep the unitary cost and increase the number of shoots to 5. Yes, assault 5 s5 ap0 d1. This change has implications that synergize better with both infantry blobs and vehicles. 4bshootas may be worth taking on a battlewagon as they would output 20shoots. That can clear some chaff.

Arguably a similar approach can be applied to super shootas. 2-3pts per shoot would be a fair arrangement, making then 7 pts instead of 10....OR....increase the number of shoots to 4.

I think your on to something it's the profile that's wrong more than the cost.

1. Insufficient volume of shots
2. Excessive strength. S4 won't matter vrs a large chunk of the field but being S5 makes a doubles your wounding rate against T8&9.
3. Still to few charictoristics have been moved beyond 0-9.

whilest i find 5 shots a bit excessive for 5 pts, it would also fix the issue.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Well. . . . if you're expecting to advance with your Boyz every game, then maybe don't pay the points for the Big Shoota. Weapons aren't necessarily costed around specific tactics.

There are two way to run boyz - if you pick any other way they just end up dead.
1) Green tide. You have as many boyz as possible and cover the table in them, winning the game through table control. In this case big shootas lower the number of wounds you have while not actually providing the benefit of lowering the damage taken as they are usually killing screening units. While the boyz mobs in the back could probably shoot their big shootas mutliple turns, you are working against the goal of bringing too many bodies to shoot. Against a properly prepared army, the green tide runs out of boyz by turn 4 and then relies on the VP they scored until then to win the game. There is no wiggle room for buying upgrades that do not further your goal.
2) Deep strike them. Da jump means they are hiding out of sight and/or range in the back of your deployment zone, with tellyporta they are off the board completely. The shoota mob drops, unloads on some target and then charges. If they succeed in charging and arrest something, they will continue to fight for the next turns, hopefully getting out of that combat to repeat the ordeal. If they fail their charge or can't arrest something, they will be gone by your next turn.

Running up the board with some boyz that will then murder whatever they touch is no longer happening. You'll drop below the 20 model threshold before reaching your target and then bounce off a screening unit.
So it's more like the big shoota is costed around a specific tactic that orks simply never do.

I'm seeing that 3 big Shootas at 15 points can return a 13 point kill every round if you are playing to it. That doesn't seem so bad.

That's a tactical marine though, which is considered to be too expensive by most. If you compare it to an intercessor instead, you'll end up with 30 points to kill a 17 point model. That does seem bad.

Also, why is the math off?

I didn't say off, I said disconnected from reality. There simply is no ork unit that could take a big shoota and sit somewhere for multiple turns and shoot them. It's kind of like powerfists for marine or IG sergeants. They will never pick a PF to fight characters and vehicles like a boss nob would, because their primary role is to sit back and shoot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:
I'm trying to follow the logic here as to why have people become so looked in on a stormbolter vrs a big shoota as a comparison it's not even close to having the same role.

It's an Assualt Heavy Bolter,
Guard pay 8 points on a heavy weapon on BS4+
Orks pay 5 points on an assualt weapon on BS5+
Guard pay 8 points for a heavy bolter move and hit on 5+
Orks pay 5 points for a big shoota move and hit on 5+
Guard advance and can't shoot
Orks Advance and hit on 6's

That single Ap-1 cost 3 points

That doesn't make a big shoota look super over costed?

Your reasoning is not wrong (and probably how GW got to 5pts big shoota), but orks simply aren't guard. There are no artillery pieces in the back doing the heavy lifting, no super-durable knights or baneblades to destroy hard targets from across the board with ease and guardsmen are both cheaper and more survivable than ork boyz. We have lots of other stuff we can do, but almost everything involves being within 12"-24".

In short, orks do different things during a battle than IG do, therefore weapons need to be priced according to the context of their codex.

So sample size of 2 games, but I decided to track points removed by big shootas on my green tide list and my battlewagon list last night.

Battlewagons against guard returned an avrage of ~1.5 guardsmen each (3 bone breakers, 3 big shootas each) 3 battlewagons 3 big shootas each. 90 points in big shootas. Used hwo they get used in my list as helping clear screens they did the job acceptibly. 18 big shootas cost 90 points. they removed 31 guardsmen so 124 points. probably worth while. they did clear and finish off screens allowing units once they got out to assault past remnants of lines.

next match vs GSC use foot boys and a 2 trukks. trukks wanted to advance to get nobz up. neither one even got a hit before the trukk blew up. wasted 10 points. 180 ork boyz 6 units of 30, 18 big shootas. Again they were constantly advancing to get stuck in. 90 points in shootas. first turn removed 4 neophytes, turn 2 removed 2 neophyte, turn 3 removed 2 neophites. so literally 100 points in big shootas on boys did 40 points of GSC. In this case the first volley helped get off one charge. the others failed to remove enough of a screens to get around.

I usually skip big shootas on boyz and yea this experience of tracking affirms that decision. in my personal type of battlewagon and buggy list though they seem to dhave a place. will try a match against a space marine army next week to track if i remember

**note that same 90 points could have been 5 lootas which probably would have done more damage but I like my themed lists so in BW and vehicle list I have no infantry starting on the board. So even in this use I am slightly gimping myself for the fun of all mech

Ice_can wrote:
2. Excessive strength. S4 won't matter vrs a large chunk of the field but being S5 makes a doubles your wounding rate against T8&9.

As shown in the math earlier, the chance of wounding a T8 3+ model with a big shoota is so low that doubling it still makes it no more than a last ditch effort to get lucky.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
So sample size of 2 games, but I decided to track points removed by big shootas on my green tide list and my battlewagon list last night.

Battlewagons against guard returned an avrage of ~1.5 guardsmen each (3 bone breakers, 3 big shootas each) 3 battlewagons 3 big shootas each. 90 points in big shootas. Used hwo they get used in my list as helping clear screens they did the job acceptibly. 18 big shootas cost 90 points. they removed 31 guardsmen so 124 points. probably worth while. they did clear and finish off screens allowing units once they got out to assault past remnants of lines.

next match vs GSC use foot boys and a 2 trukks. trukks wanted to advance to get nobz up. neither one even got a hit before the trukk blew up. wasted 10 points. 180 ork boyz 6 units of 30, 18 big shootas. Again they were constantly advancing to get stuck in. 90 points in shootas. first turn removed 4 neophytes, turn 2 removed 2 neophyte, turn 3 removed 2 neophites. so literally 100 points in big shootas on boys did 40 points of GSC. In this case the first volley helped get off one charge. the others failed to remove enough of a screens to get around.

I usually skip big shootas on boyz and yea this experience of tracking affirms that decision. in my personal type of battlewagon and buggy list though they seem to dhave a place. will try a match against a space marine army next week to track if i remember

**note that same 90 points could have been 5 lootas which probably would have done more damage but I like my themed lists so in BW and vehicle list I have no infantry starting on the board. So even in this use I am slightly gimping myself for the fun of all mech

Great job, thanks for sharing!

 Xenomancers wrote:
The big shoota is better than a storm bolter LOL.

It's amazing how Marines should have discounts because they have to take ablaitive wounds - so putting a single heavy/weapon squad per 5 guys should be at a huge discount.

But Orkz only need 10 doods per upgraded weapon, so should pay full price!

Personally, I think Big Shoota is probably worth ~3points on the Ork platform. It has a good profile, but isn't easy to leverage.

(Although I might still be biased vs Ork small arms from when cc-kitted Ork Boyz were outshooting my Dire Avengers in a firefight, point-per-point... Gotta love the Index pricing...)

Less than it costs now.

 Jidmah wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
2. Excessive strength. S4 won't matter vrs a large chunk of the field but being S5 makes a doubles your wounding rate against T8&9.

As shown in the math earlier, the chance of wounding a T8 3+ model with a big shoota is so low that doubling it still makes it no more than a last ditch effort to get lucky.

Except your missing the point entirely.
I'm not saying that big shoots are good or should be good against T8 units.
The issue is by being S5 instead of a S4 weapon GW is pricing it as being usable against T8 unit's, arguably rightly so.

Making Big shootas and Heacy bolters Heavy 5 S4 weapons would make them far more anti hoard like they should be and mean they arn't paying a points cost for their extra stats that improve their sub optimal performance.

It's about clarity of design and understanding the mechanics of the game to be able to optimise the design. Something GW has got wrong multiple times in 8th edition.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Nuh uh, I aint doing the maths for you. It's already earlier in this thread and I know you don't listen to anything if it doesn't fit space marine one way train.

The answer is easy. You can't advance and shoot a storm bolter. Also - a bolter is technically twice as efficient as a shoota. So should the bolter cost more? It is currently free.

Name one infantry unit with storm bolters, that you'd ever advance.


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Also, if you want the number simulations to include Dakka Dakka Dakka you may aswell include the Space Marine Reroll auras lmao, as if they're never there.

Dominions. Battle Sisters. Wolf Guard variants.

I already offered graphs comparing Storm Bolters to Big Shootas. All things considered, I'd say the Big Shoota is slightly better/more versatile, but they're otherwise similar weapons. I think 3 points is probably the fair price of a Big Shoota.