What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.

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**Not Online!!!**

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Eonfuzz wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Eonfuzz wrote:
Nuh uh, I aint doing the maths for you. It's already earlier in this thread and I know you don't listen to anything if it doesn't fit space marine one way train.

The answer is easy. You can't advance and shoot a storm bolter. Also - a bolter is technically twice as efficient as a shoota. So should the bolter cost more? It is currently free.

Name one infantry unit with storm bolters, that you'd ever advance.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if you want the number simulations to include Dakka Dakka Dakka you may aswell include the Space Marine Reroll auras lmao, as if they're never there.

Dominions. Battle Sisters. Wolf Guard variants.

I already offered graphs comparing Storm Bolters to Big Shootas. All things considered, I'd say the Big Shoota is slightly better/more versatile, but they're otherwise similar weapons. I think 3 points is probably the fair price of a Big Shoota.

So my 3 pts estimation can therethically be backed by math.
Nice to know.

**Bharring**

Anything can be backed by math, if you try hard enough.

**Inquisitor Lord Katherine**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Eonfuzz wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Eonfuzz wrote:
Nuh uh, I aint doing the maths for you. It's already earlier in this thread and I know you don't listen to anything if it doesn't fit space marine one way train.

The answer is easy. You can't advance and shoot a storm bolter. Also - a bolter is technically twice as efficient as a shoota. So should the bolter cost more? It is currently free.

Name one infantry unit with storm bolters, that you'd ever advance.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if you want the number simulations to include Dakka Dakka Dakka you may aswell include the Space Marine Reroll auras lmao, as if they're never there.

Dominions. Battle Sisters. Wolf Guard variants.

I already offered graphs comparing Storm Bolters to Big Shootas. All things considered, I'd say the Big Shoota is slightly better/more versatile, but they're otherwise similar weapons. I think 3 points is probably the fair price of a Big Shoota.

So my 3 pts estimation can therethically be backed by math.
Nice to know.

I have some simulations to produce the inverse CDFs on the first page of this thread. I think 3 points is pretty much a fair cost. Technically it's probably like 2.6 or something, but you can't have 2/3 of a point and it rounds to 3.

**Melissia**

Three points would give Orks more room to work with.

**Xenomancers**

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Eonfuzz wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Eonfuzz wrote:
Nuh uh, I aint doing the maths for you. It's already earlier in this thread and I know you don't listen to anything if it doesn't fit space marine one way train.

The answer is easy. You can't advance and shoot a storm bolter. Also - a bolter is technically twice as efficient as a shoota. So should the bolter cost more? It is currently free.

Name one infantry unit with storm bolters, that you'd ever advance.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if you want the number simulations to include Dakka Dakka Dakka you may aswell include the Space Marine Reroll auras lmao, as if they're never there.

Dominions. Battle Sisters. Wolf Guard variants.

I already offered graphs comparing Storm Bolters to Big Shootas. All things considered, I'd say the Big Shoota is slightly better/more versatile, but they're otherwise similar weapons. I think 3 points is probably the fair price of a Big Shoota.

36" range aint free. Has to be at least 4 points or you are just giving stats away for free. A Tau Burst cannon is 8 points for 4 shots str 5 assault with 18" range in what world is +1 shot at half the range worth nearly 3 times as much (if you dropped to 3 points) You have got to be realistic. Compared to other weapons the BS is basically in about the same place. The storm bolter comparison is garbage too. The storm bolters effective range is 12" so it should outperform at that range. Technically a bolter is twice as efficient on a space marine than a shoota on an ork (slightly less due to dakka dakka) Should the bolter get a price bump? Heck why? Shoota boys are great and tactical squads are gak. There is obviously more to it than what is going on in this thread. Game wise I think the stubber is the best weapon to compare the BS to. It has the same range and number of shots. To bump the str and give it assault youd have to charge at least 1 points for each of those upgrades.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:
Three points would give Orks more room to work with.

Why exactly do orks need more room to work with? Shoota boys are great. They don't even need the BS.

**flandarz**

"Shoota Boyz are great"

30 model blob has 60 shots. 20 of those shots hit because of a BS5+ (10 if you Advance and aren't Evil Sunz). Approximately 3 more hits after Dakkax3 (6 more if you're Bad Moonz, 1.5 more if you Advance and aren't Evil Sunz). Against a Tac Squad, you cut another half of those because of T4 vs S4, so you're down to 6-13 shots after Wounds. After a Tac Squads 3+ Save (effectively 2+ if they're in Cover), you end up with between 1 and 3.333 Wounds. Congratulations, 210 pts of Shoota Boyz managed to take out, on average, 2 Tac Marines in the shooting phase.

As has been pointed out repeatedly, even the best Ork shooting ends up just being about average in comparison to the other Factions. I assume you just think it's "good" because you're used to Orkz sucking at shooting anything. Those Shoota Boyz don't want to be castling up like Tau or Imperials, relying on their ranged weapons. They *still* want to be moving towards a target to get into CC.

But, at this point, you're kind of a lost cause. You got quite literally everyone arguing against you, both Ork players and players of other Factions, and you refuse to accept that maybe, just maybe, you're wrong. So, there's really nothing more to say about it. Have a good life, friend, but I'm out.

**Xenomancers**

No one uses tac squads because they suck balls. You are going to be shooting at t3 5+ infanty most likely. If you check stratagems on them you can do substantial damage.

Dajump 30 shoota boys
Shoot twice with more dakka. Youll put about 30 wounds on something youll do slightly more wounds for slgihtly more points with big shootas.

Hoenstly you are right it is a lost cause. Orks are a top teir army and shootaboys are their core in tons of lists. You guys complaining like you are GK up in here. Who BTW for 210 points get a single strike squad with OP storm bolters for 210 points. It gets about the same number of hits and wounds - it can't shoot twice has 1/3 of the CC attacks and 1/3 of the wounds and it's save gets removed down to a 5+ by asbout halfd the weapons in the game where and ork army is likely veilded under a 5++ save bubble .On the whole strike squads are actrually a pretty good unit by marine standards too.

**flandarz**

I can't speak from a competitive perspective, but judging from the statline, they seem roughly twice as good as an Ork Boy, for slightly less than twice the cost. But ok. I believe ya. Moving on.

Da Jump 30 Bad Moonz Shoota Boyz and use 4 CP to make them shoot adequately. Let's run it out.

30 Shoota Boyz, with Moar Dakka and Showin' Off, vs T3, 5+ Infantry.

That's 120 shots, of which 40 will hit with BS5+. Between Moar Dakka and rerolling 1s, you'll have another 20 hits, for 60 total. T3 vs S5. 40 shots pass Wounds. 5+ Save. 26.6 Damage. The addition of 3 Big Shoota: 63 hits, 42 Wounds, 28 Damage. If you allocate your shots perfectly, you can take out almost 3 10-model groups of infantry. If you split ineffectively, you'll take out a single one, and maybe damage 2 others. For this, you spent 4 CP, probably over a quarter of your total. Honestly, if I spent 4 CP on a 210 model unit and COULDN'T deal at least 26 damage to Guardsmen, I'd consider that to be a waste of CP spent.

I don't think anyone is complaining. Well, except for you. Myself, and others, just want your complaints grounded in... well, reality. Orkz *are* a very good army. But statements like: "Orkz are great at shooting" are faulty and grounded in fantasy.

Edit: also, well done with comparing to what is widely considered to be the worst army in the game. "Orkz are overpowered because look at how much better they are than Grey Knights." In that case, quite literally every army is overpowered and needs a nerf, yes?

**Xenomancers**

Literally everyone is complaining about the cost of the BS. With many stating it's cost should be dropped to 1 or 2 points (43% of votes) from 6 points is just asinine. Just comparing the raw damage results in ideal conditions to noncomparable weapons. Ignoring the added utility of assault rule plus triple effective range and bonus str which is significant vs t4. ITT people actually claiming the SB is OP. LOL. Keep in mind I am totally fine with a reduction to 4 points. Which I have supported with a very logical argument. For this logical approach I've been accused of trolling. I think one guy even said it's the dumbest thing they ever heard on dakka…

The last tournament I went to I lost to an ork army doing exactly this (it was a 1000 point tournament) Sure there might be better units to buff with those strats but in a smaller game this is probably the most effective unit you have. It probably doesn't need to get any better than it already is.

**flandarz**

A Big Shoota gets, for 5 pts, +18" range, +1 shot, and +1S, all of this on a chassis that only hits a target 1/3rd of the time.

A Storm Bolter gets, for 2 pts, +1 shot past 12" and +2 shots within 12", on a chassis that hits (as per Tac Marines) 2/3rds of the time.

Why the former should cost even twice that of the latter, despite multiple people showing you the math of how they are roughly equivalent to each other, is beyond me. And everyone else.

**JNAProductions**

You want some math?

6 Big Shoota shots
22/9 hits
44/27 wounds against MEQs or Boyz
44/81 unsaved MEQ wounds, 110/81 unsaved Boy wounds

As compared to...

4 Storm Bolter shots
32/9 hits
8/3 wounds agianst MEQs or Boyz
8/9 unsaved MEQ wounds, 20/9 unsaved Boy wounds

Would you look at that-if you compare them at their absolute peak, the Storm Bolter outperforms the Big Shoota! Almost as if it's better.

Edit: For reference, that's a Big Shoota with extra shots on a 5+, RR1s to hit, and shooting twice.
It's a Storm Bolter with the G-Man.

**lolman1c**

While we're on the subject I'd like to discuss a bunch of ork weapons with similar counterparts but somehow orks pay more.

**Xenomancers**

JNAProductions wrote:
You want some math?

6 Big Shoota shots
22/9 hits
44/27 wounds against MEQs or Boyz
44/81 unsaved MEQ wounds, 110/81 unsaved Boy wounds

As compared to...

4 Storm Bolter shots
32/9 hits
8/3 wounds agianst MEQs or Boyz
8/9 unsaved MEQ wounds, 20/9 unsaved Boy wounds

Would you look at that-if you compare them at their absolute peak, the Storm Bolter outperforms the Big Shoota! Almost as if it's better.

Edit: For reference, that's a Big Shoota with extra shots on a 5+, RR1s to hit, and shooting twice.
It's a Storm Bolter with the G-Man.

Point cost of model wielding BS vs storm bolter at 12"? 24"? 36? Or does the range not matter to you?

**flandarz**

Point cost of Big Shoota Boy: 12 pts. Point cost of Storm Bolter Sergeant: 15 pts. Cost of the former including the MSU squad it is part of: 75 pts. Cost of the latter including the MSU squad it is part of: 67 pts.

The stat differences between the Big Shoota Boy and the Storm Bolter Sergeant:

BSB 5"Mv 5+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W1 A2 Sv6+ Assault 3 36" S5 AP0 D1
SBS 6"Mv 3+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W2 A3 Sv3+ Rapid Fire 2 24" S4 AP0 D1

So, the Storm Bolter Sergeant costs 3 points more than the Big Shoota Boy, and for those 3 points he gets +1" of movement, 50% better accuracy, +1 wound, +1 attack, 50% improved Save, 1 less shot, 12" less range, and 1 less S with his gun.

Range outside of 18" isn't going to matter much. These are anti-infantry guns attached to mobile units. They aren't sitting 36" away from their target, taking potshots.

**Jidmah**

Melissia wrote:
Three points would give Orks more room to work with.

I agree, 3 points doesn't seem too expensive nor make them an automatic choice.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xenomancers wrote:
Point cost of model wielding BS vs storm bolter at 12"? 24"? 36? Or does the range not matter to you?

Exactly. Range does not matter to orks carrying big shootas. Make it 24" range and no one would notice.

**Not Online!!!**

Jidmah wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Three points would give Orks more room to work with.

I agree, 3 points doesn't seem too expensive nor make them an automatic choice.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xenomancers wrote:
Point cost of model wielding BS vs storm bolter at 12"? 24"? 36? Or does the range not matter to you?

Exactly. Range does not matter to orks carrying big shootas. Make it 24" range and no one would notice.

Added fact 24 " is pretty much the whole board anyways if you play an army that wants to be offensive.
Same with bolters really etc.

**Ice_can**

flandarz wrote:
Point cost of Big Shoota Boy: 12 pts. Point cost of Storm Bolter Sergeant: 15 pts. Cost of the former including the MSU squad it is part of: 75 pts. Cost of the latter including the MSU squad it is part of: 67 pts.

The stat differences between the Big Shoota Boy and the Storm Bolter Sergeant:

BSB 5"Mv 5+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W1 A2 Sv6+ Assault 3 36" S5 AP0 D1
SBS 6"Mv 3+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W2 A3 Sv3+ Rapid Fire 2 24" S4 AP0 D1

So, the Storm Bolter Sergeant costs 3 points more than the Big Shoota Boy, and for those 3 points he gets +1" of movement, 50% better accuracy, +1 wound, +1 attack, 50% improved Save, 1 less shot, 12" less range, and 1 less S with his gun.

Range outside of 18" isn't going to matter much. These are anti-infantry guns attached to mobile units. They aren't sitting 36" away from their target, taking potshots.

Well if your going to make up stats for the storm bolter sargent no wonder your going to think it's better.

I know that marine's are bad and you probably haven't played against them in a year but their stats haven't changed since 3rd edition it surely can't be that hard to remeber them.

But FYI his actual stats are

6"Mv 3+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W1 A2 Sv3+

But I'm still waiting on an actual answer as to what relevance a storm bolter has to the price of a big shoota which is designed to be the equivalent of a heavy bolter.

Marine qith Heavy Bolter

23 points
6"Mv 3+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W1 A1 Sv3+ Heavy 3 36" S5 AP-1 D1

**Not Online!!!**

Ice_can wrote:
flandarz wrote:
Point cost of Big Shoota Boy: 12 pts. Point cost of Storm Bolter Sergeant: 15 pts. Cost of the former including the MSU squad it is part of: 75 pts. Cost of the latter including the MSU squad it is part of: 67 pts.

The stat differences between the Big Shoota Boy and the Storm Bolter Sergeant:

BSB 5"Mv 5+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W1 A2 Sv6+ Assault 3 36" S5 AP0 D1
SBS 6"Mv 3+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W2 A3 Sv3+ Rapid Fire 2 24" S4 AP0 D1

So, the Storm Bolter Sergeant costs 3 points more than the Big Shoota Boy, and for those 3 points he gets +1" of movement, 50% better accuracy, +1 wound, +1 attack, 50% improved Save, 1 less shot, 12" less range, and 1 less S with his gun.

Range outside of 18" isn't going to matter much. These are anti-infantry guns attached to mobile units. They aren't sitting 36" away from their target, taking potshots.

Well if your going to make up stats for the storm bolter sargent no wonder your going to think it's better.

I know that marine's are bad and you probably haven't played against them in a year but their stats haven't changed since 3rd edition it surely can't be that hard to remeber them.

But FYI his actual stats are

6"Mv 3+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W1 A2 Sv3+

But I'm still waiting on an actual answer as to what relevance a storm bolter has to the price of a big shoota which is designed to be the equivalent of a heavy bolter.

Marine qith Heavy Bolter

23 points
6"Mv 3+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W1 A1 Sv3+ Heavy 3 36" S5 AP-1 D1

Ever heard of the intermediate?

The big shoota is such a gun, not quite heavy yet but also bigger then the combi guns.

And now due to bolter beta rule the combi bolter /storm bolter is a closer comparison and often more effective then the bigger more expensive gun.

Hillariously if you have the choice the combi / stormbolters are basically always picked whilest the heavy bolter still remains home.

**Orkimedez_Atalaya**

All maths involved. Could any of you run the same considering the bshoota as a 5 pts upgrade and assault 5? Otherwose the same.

BR

**Gir Spirit Bane**

Xenomancers wrote:

Spoiler:

JNAProductions wrote:
You want some math?

6 Big Shoota shots
22/9 hits
44/27 wounds against MEQs or Boyz
44/81 unsaved MEQ wounds, 110/81 unsaved Boy wounds

As compared to...

4 Storm Bolter shots
32/9 hits
8/3 wounds agianst MEQs or Boyz
8/9 unsaved MEQ wounds, 20/9 unsaved Boy wounds

Would you look at that-if you compare them at their absolute peak, the Storm Bolter outperforms the Big Shoota! Almost as if it's better.

Edit: For reference, that's a Big Shoota with extra shots on a 5+, RR1s to hit, and shooting twice.
It's a Storm Bolter with the G-Man.

Point cost of model wielding BS vs. storm bolter at 12"? 24"? 36? Or does the range not matter to you?

36" range on Ork boyz literally does not matter when they are charging at you head long turn 1 and its their ONLY tactic for success. No one is sitting back and shooting their shoota boyz only, they're using the weapons to do damage before charging. Come to think of it it doesn't matter much for Dakkajets (crazy speed in this case) or trukks since game plan is GET UP AND KRUMP 'EM' LADZ

3 pts is good for the big shoota, its the workhorse gun but at its current price it just doesn't do much for the cost.

**Jidmah**

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
All maths involved. Could any of you run the same considering the bshoota as a 5 pts upgrade and assault 5? Otherwose the same.

BR

Against GEQ:
At assault 5 would get you 5.833 shots, 1.944 hits, 1.296 wounds, .864 dead.
A 10 point supa-shoota gets you 3.5 shots, 1.75 hits, 1.458 wounds, .1215 dead

Sounds good enough enough against GEQ, obviously worse against targets with decent armor.

**Ice_can**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
flandarz wrote:
Point cost of Big Shoota Boy: 12 pts. Point cost of Storm Bolter Sergeant: 15 pts. Cost of the former including the MSU squad it is part of: 75 pts. Cost of the latter including the MSU squad it is part of: 67 pts.

The stat differences between the Big Shoota Boy and the Storm Bolter Sergeant:

BSB 5"Mv 5+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W1 A2 Sv6+ Assault 3 36" S5 AP0 D1
SBS 6"Mv 3+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W2 A3 Sv3+ Rapid Fire 2 24" S4 AP0 D1

So, the Storm Bolter Sergeant costs 3 points more than the Big Shoota Boy, and for those 3 points he gets +1" of movement, 50% better accuracy, +1 wound, +1 attack, 50% improved Save, 1 less shot, 12" less range, and 1 less S with his gun.

Range outside of 18" isn't going to matter much. These are anti-infantry guns attached to mobile units. They aren't sitting 36" away from their target, taking potshots.

Well if your going to make up stats for the storm bolter sargent no wonder your going to think it's better.

I know that marine's are bad and you probably haven't played against them in a year but their stats haven't changed since 3rd edition it surely can't be that hard to remeber them.

But FYI his actual stats are

6"Mv 3+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W1 A2 Sv3+

But I'm still waiting on an actual answer as to what relevance a storm bolter has to the price of a big shoota which is designed to be the equivalent of a heavy bolter.

Marine qith Heavy Bolter

23 points
6"Mv 3+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W1 A1 Sv3+ Heavy 3 36" S5 AP-1 D1

Ever heard of the intermediate?

The big shoota is such a gun, not quite heavy yet but also bigger then the combi guns.

And now due to bolter beta rule the combi bolter /storm bolter is a closer comparison and often more effective then the bigger more expensive gun.

Hillariously if you have the choice the combi / stormbolters are basically always picked whilest the heavy bolter still remains home.

Yeah so your going to include GW's patch work rules fix to we couldn't point marines to make them remotely playable so have a barely viable rule to make them less terrible.

Ok what between a BS stat line vrs a heavy bolters stat line makes it more fair to compair it to a storm bolter?

BS Assualt 3 36" S5 Ap0 D1
HB Heavy 3 36" S5 Ap-1 D1

SB rapidfire 2 24" S4 Ap0 D1

Let shoot some marines
BS .22 marines
HB .5 marines
SB .22 marines

Ork with BS 12 points or 54 points per marine
Marine with HB 23 points or 46 points per marine
Marine with SB 15points or 68 points per marine

Guard with lasgun .056 marines 4 points or 71 points per marine killed

Maths can be used to prove almost anything the issue is it doesn't take into account gamestate.

You can claim that every marine is being Gman buffed but you know that's being dishonest.

Is a BS a 5 point weapon probably not, is it a 2 point weapon No.
If it's 3 points a bust cannon sure isn't 8 points. Enjoy facing 3 maximum 4 point burst cannons.

**Not Online!!!**

Ice_can wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
flandarz wrote:
Point cost of Big Shoota Boy: 12 pts. Point cost of Storm Bolter Sergeant: 15 pts. Cost of the former including the MSU squad it is part of: 75 pts. Cost of the latter including the MSU squad it is part of: 67 pts.

The stat differences between the Big Shoota Boy and the Storm Bolter Sergeant:

BSB 5"Mv 5+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W1 A2 Sv6+ Assault 3 36" S5 AP0 D1
SBS 6"Mv 3+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W2 A3 Sv3+ Rapid Fire 2 24" S4 AP0 D1

So, the Storm Bolter Sergeant costs 3 points more than the Big Shoota Boy, and for those 3 points he gets +1" of movement, 50% better accuracy, +1 wound, +1 attack, 50% improved Save, 1 less shot, 12" less range, and 1 less S with his gun.

Range outside of 18" isn't going to matter much. These are anti-infantry guns attached to mobile units. They aren't sitting 36" away from their target, taking potshots.

Well if your going to make up stats for the storm bolter sargent no wonder your going to think it's better.

I know that marine's are bad and you probably haven't played against them in a year but their stats haven't changed since 3rd edition it surely can't be that hard to remeber them.

But FYI his actual stats are

6"Mv 3+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W1 A2 Sv3+

But I'm still waiting on an actual answer as to what relevance a storm bolter has to the price of a big shoota which is designed to be the equivalent of a heavy bolter.

Marine qith Heavy Bolter

23 points
6"Mv 3+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W1 A1 Sv3+ Heavy 3 36" S5 AP-1 D1

Ever heard of the intermediate?

The big shoota is such a gun, not quite heavy yet but also bigger then the combi guns.

And now due to bolter beta rule the combi bolter /storm bolter is a closer comparison and often more effective then the bigger more expensive gun.

Hillariously if you have the choice the combi / stormbolters are basically always picked whilest the heavy bolter still remains home.

Yeah so your going to include GW's patch work rules fix to we couldn't point marines to make them remotely playable so have a barely viable rule to make them less terrible.

Ok what between a BS stat line vrs a heavy bolters stat line makes it more fair to compair it to a storm bolter?

BS Assualt 3 36" S5 Ap0 D1
HB Heavy 3 36" S5 Ap-1 D1

SB rapidfire 2 24" S4 Ap0 D1

Let shoot some marines
BS .22 marines
HB .5 marines
SB .22 marines

Ork with BS 12 points or 54 points per marine
Marine with HB 23 points or 46 points per marine
Marine with SB 15points or 68 points per marine

Guard with lasgun .056 marines 4 points or 71 points per marine killed

Maths can be used to prove almost anything the issue is it doesn't take into account gamestate.

You can claim that every marine is being Gman buffed but you know that's being dishonest.

Is a BS a 5 point weapon probably not, is it a 2 point weapon and if it's 3 points

Before you go around and insult someone as beeing dishonest, where did i state that they are buffed by GMan?
And it is a matter of fact that if you have the option to pick either a HB or a Stormbolter/ combibilter the later always wins. (and i say this as a chaos player with some of the nicest sculpts for Heavy bolter available.)

The point is or why i deem it necessary to regard the beta bolter fix, and the stormbolter, is the application, use and circumstance of it.
I also gave you a sound reasoning the last page i deem it a 3 point weapon.

But i guess you'd rather state i am dishonest.
I also even explained why some weapons in the same "weightclass" do work and some not:

but here for you:

Spoiler:

CSM do too pay 10 pts / HB.
And how often do you see them? Especially when the Reaper chaincannon has 2 more shots for the same price for one equipment slot?

I'll refer to the Heavy stubber, it's targets are the same, light squishy infantry, same applies to the Big shoota, same to the heavy bolter, same to the Reaper.

The reaper has one significant advantage, it is in a dex that can double it's rate and a singular weapon, meaning saturation is easily achievable. This is what makes the reaper work. (and also the reason for the rather steep pricing but atleast it is playable)

The heavy bolter and big shootason the other hand suffer for beeing too expensive and lacking saturation options. Meaning that for the output of 1 reaper, you need 2 Heavy bolters in the same squad + additional 2/3'rds of one to just equate the ammount of shots. 1 Havoc with reaper is 34 pts. 2. havocs alone are 28 pts + 20 for the heavy bolters. And we have not yet talked about VotWL which would make Heavy bolters actually decent against medium tanks, were it not for the fact that reapers again stack up better.

Ig has another issue. They pay a fairer price for the heavy bolter, but pay more for a heavy bolter then for a mortar. Which beats the heavy bolter in terms of range and LOS usage. (also averages more shots and with certain traits alot more of them)
Targets are again the same. So why pay 3 pts more for +1 S and -1 AP when you can generate more shots overall?

Now the heavy stubber shows up. And for regiments that can field them (or armies ) on line infantry, the job is the same. Now however you pay 1/8th for the equal ammount of shots, one less S and no armor penetration. The targets you want to shoot with it however remain the same, and virtually T3 targets (75% off all infantry really) treat it the same as the heavy bolter.
It isn't even a competition there.

This is also why i belive, if the stubber is worth 2 pts, which it is, the Big shoota should be 3 and the heavy bolter 4 /5 respectively. And precedence was created by the heavy stubber itself, which got it's price cut in half.

**Ice_can**

That part wasn't actually aimed at you, it was aimed at the people just making up statlines.

And how often do you actually think.
I know I'll take basic marine's.
1 wound for double digit points don't work in 8th.

But if your going to compair to S4 weapons as the basis for the points cost of these weapons then IMHO they need to be reduced to S4 to match the base weapons they are based upon and become 5 shot weapons just making mid strength weapons cheaper piles more issues onto elite infantry being useless as the weapons good at killing them are passable against T3 chaff and also against Armour.

If you want a weapon that's a generalist you'll rightly get charged a premium for the fact it doesn't have the bad matchup to offset it's performance in it's good matchups.

**Not Online!!!**

Ice_can wrote:
That part wasn't actually aimed at you, it was aimed at the people just making up statlines.

And how often do you actually think I know I'll take basic marine's.

1 wound for double digit points don't work in 8th.

But if your goibg to compair to S4 weapons as the basis for the points cost of these weapons then IMHO they need to be reduced to S4 to match the base weapons they are based upon and become 5 shot weapons just making mid strength weapons cheaper piles more issues onto elite infantry being useless as the weapons good at killing them are passable against T3 chaff and also against Armour.

I compare it on a range of slightly heavier weapons that are used as either vehicle additions and infantry weapons aswell and in terms of what their job is.

Combibolter AND stormbolter/ Heavy Stubber/ Big Shoota / Heavy bolter / Reaper chaincannon.

the first three function because they are cheap. Like literally cheap. the Last works because it is a single slot.

The heavy bolter and the Big shoota don't work.

As for elite infantry not working. The basic tac marine does not work. For chaos he does, mostly due to propper CP generation and the possibility to be recycled.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

If you want a weapon that's a generalist you'll rightly get charged a premium for the fact it doesn't have the bad matchup to offset it's performance in it's good matchups.

How the feth are you even going to the conclusion a s5 weapon is a generalist?

A generalist is something like an Autocannon.

**Ice_can**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
That part wasn't actually aimed at you, it was aimed at the people just making up statlines.

And how often do you actually think I know I'll take basic marine's.

1 wound for double digit points don't work in 8th.

But if your goibg to compair to S4 weapons as the basis for the points cost of these weapons then IMHO they need to be reduced to S4 to match the base weapons they are based upon and become 5 shot weapons just making mid strength weapons cheaper piles more issues onto elite infantry being useless as the weapons good at killing them are passable against T3 chaff and also against Armour.

I compare it on a range of slightly heavier weapons that are used as either vehicle additions and infantry weapons aswell and in terms of what their job is.

Combibolter AND stormbolter/ Heavy Stubber/ Big Shoota / Heavy bolter / Reaper chaincannon.

the first three function because they are cheap. Like literally cheap. the Las works because it is a single slot.

The heavy bolter and the Big shoota don't work.

As for elite infantry not working. The basic tac marine does not work. For chaos he does, mostly due to propper CP generation and the possibility to be recycled.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

If you want a weapon that's a generalist you'll rightly get charged a premium for the fact it doesn't have the bad matchup to offset it's performance in it's good matchups.

How the feth are you even going to the conclusion a s5 weapon is a generalist?

A generalist is something like an Autocannon.

What does a S5 weapon wound a tank or knight on 5+ what does an auto cannon wound on 5+. Welcome to flat wounding charts.

Being S4 or S5 makes a big difference to the wounds caused vrs T8 (most viable vehicals) being S3/4 maters vrs infantry but S5-6 are genarilist weapons S7 is light anti tank S8+ is very AT weapons.

A strom bolter does .074 vrs T8 3+, a Big shoota does .111 wounds without any strategums or special rules.

Its the same reason assualt cannons are costed insanely high now, S5-6 is a very effective strength in the 8th edition system.

**Not Online!!!**

Ice_can wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
That part wasn't actually aimed at you, it was aimed at the people just making up statlines.

And how often do you actually think I know I'll take basic marine's.

1 wound for double digit points don't work in 8th.

But if your goibg to compair to S4 weapons as the basis for the points cost of these weapons then IMHO they need to be reduced to S4 to match the base weapons they are based upon and become 5 shot weapons just making mid strength weapons cheaper piles more issues onto elite infantry being useless as the weapons good at killing them are passable against T3 chaff and also against Armour.

I compare it on a range of slightly heavier weapons that are used as either vehicle additions and infantry weapons aswell and in terms of what their job is.

Combibolter AND stormbolter/ Heavy Stubber/ Big Shoota / Heavy bolter / Reaper chaincannon.

the first three function because they are cheap. Like literally cheap. the Las works because it is a single slot.

The heavy bolter and the Big shoota don't work.

As for elite infantry not working. The basic tac marine does not work. For chaos he does, mostly due to propper CP generation and the possibility to be recycled.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

If you want a weapon that's a generalist you'll rightly get charged a premium for the fact it doesn't have the bad matchup to offset it's performance in it's good matchups.

How the feth are you even going to the conclusion a s5 weapon is a generalist?

A generalist is something like an Autocannon.

What does a S5 weapon wound a tank or knight on 5+ what does an auto cannon wound on 5+. Welcome to flat wounding charts.

Being S4 or S5 makes a big difference to the wounds caused vrs T8 (most viable vehicals) being S3/4 maters vrs infantry but S5-6 are genarilist weapons S7 is light anti tank S8+ is very AT weapons.

A strom bolter does .074 vrs T8 3+, a Big shoota does .111 wounds without any strategums or special rules.

Its the same reason assualt cannons are costed insanely high now, S5-6 is a very effective strength in the 8th edition system.

Roffle, I didn't know most tanks weren't T7......

But overall yes the wounding chart is slowed.

**Jidmah**

Ice_can wrote:
Yeah so your going to include GW's patch work rules fix to we couldn't point marines to make them remotely playable so have a barely viable rule to make them less terrible.

Ok what between a BS stat line vrs a heavy bolters stat line makes it more fair to compair it to a storm bolter?

Careful. You are making lots of good points, but you're falling into a "you can't have it unless I get it, too"-argumentation here.

We have three assumptions:
1) Big shootas don't work
2) Storm bolters do work
3) Both are used for the same task: Gunning down light infantry

Therefore the guys want to move the big shoota towards the storm bolter.

There is no formula where you can input all the variables of an army and a gun and it drops a point cost. So, beyond that it's just guesswork.
3 points might be enough to make big shootas viable, but it might not, 2 points might make them auto-takes. 4 points is not enough of a reduction because it's not twice as good as the kustom shoota we can have for 2.

**Ice_can**

Not Online!!! wrote:

Roffle, I didn't know most tanks weren't T7......

But overall yes the wounding chart is slowed.

While their may be T7 tanks the ones that actually see play are T8
Russes T8 3+, Repulsives T8 3+, Knight's T8 3+, Craftworld haha doesn't matter when your hiding behind-2 or more to hit modifiers
Tau iok the riptide is T7 but it's depending on drones not it's own stats to survive.

**Jidmah**

Ice_can wrote:
Being S4 or S5 makes a big difference to the wounds caused vrs T8 (most viable vehicals) being S3/4 maters vrs infantry but S5-6 are genarilist weapons S7 is light anti tank S8+ is very AT weapons.

As proven above, big shootas are absolutely terrible at dealing damage to T8/3+ targets. Why are you ignoring that?