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 Jidmah wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Yeah so your going to include GW's patch work rules fix to we couldn't point marines to make them remotely playable so have a barely viable rule to make them less terrible.

Ok what between a BS stat line vrs a heavy bolters stat line makes it more fair to compair it to a storm bolter?

Careful. You are making lots of good points, but you're falling into a "you can't have it unless I get it, too"-argumentation here.

We have three assumptions:
1) Big shootas don't work
2) Storm bolters do work
3) Both are used for the same task: Gunning down light infantry

Therefore the guys want to move the big shoota towards the storm bolter.

There is no formula where you can input all the variables of an army and a gun and it drops a point cost. So, beyond that it's just guesswork.
3 points might be enough to make big shootas viable, but it might not, 2 points might make them auto-takes. 4 points is not enough of a reduction because it's not twice as good as the kustom shoota we can have for 2.

We have definitive prove that cutting the cost in half for these weapons works with the stubber as a given exemple.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Roffle, I didn't know most tanks weren't T7......

But overall yes the wounding chart is slowed.

While their may be T7 tanks the ones that actually see play are T8
Russes T8 3+, Repulsives T8 3+, Knight's T8 3+, Craftworld haha doesn't matter when your hiding behind-2 or more to hit modifiers
Tau iok the riptide is T7 but it's depending on drones not it's own stats to survive.

And leman russes see play since when?

Commanders see play. Yes, because they are justifiyable cheap and good shots enough. The average leman russ, not a chance.

And i dare say the increased BS has to do with why the Commander leman russes see play compared to the regular leman russ.
Add to that flat weapon costs ( no diferentiation between unit types and cost to field it) and you get the mess we have now.

 Jidmah wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Being S4 or S5 makes a big difference to the wounds caused vrs T8 (most viable vehicals) being S3/4 maters vrs infantry but S5-6 are genarilist weapons S7 is light anti tank S8+ is very AT weapons.

As proven above, big shootas are absolutely terrible at dealing damage to T8/3+ targets. Why are you ignoring that?

Because it's a lot better at it than a storm bolter.

A heavy stubber does .083 to the BS .111 or 12 Heavy stubbers on a BS4+ vrs 9 BS on a BS5+ model without any special rules applied to either.

If the stubber moves it's BS5, the BS is still BS5.
The stubber is now .056 or 18 stubbers to do a wound, or twice as many HS as BS, sure BS are terrible against heavy targets if you compair it to a lascannon etc, but it certainly outperformed the Heavy stubber.

Ice_can wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Being S4 or S5 makes a big difference to the wounds caused vrs T8 (most viable vehicals) being S3/4 maters vrs infantry but S5-6 are genarilist weapons S7 is light anti tank S8+ is very AT weapons.

As proven above, big shootas are absolutely terrible at dealing damage to T8/3+ targets. Why are you ignoring that?

Because it's a lot better at it than a storm bolter.

A heavy stubber does .083 to the BS .111 or 12 Heavy stubbers on a BS4+ vrs 9 BS on a BS5+ model without any special rules applied to either.

If the stubber moves it's BS5, the BS is still BS5.
The stubber is now .056 or 18 stubbers to do a wound, or twice as many HS as BS, sure BS are terrible against heavy targets if you compair it to a lascannon etc, but it certainly outperformed the Heavy stubber.

Which is why it should cost more then them but still less then the heavy bolter, which should just like the Heavy stubber drop by 50% (in case of the heavy stubber 4 pts --> 2 pts)
This is also why i am still adamant about the 3 pts.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Roffle, I didn't know most tanks weren't T7......

But overall yes the wounding chart is slowed.

While their may be T7 tanks the ones that actually see play are T8
Russes T8 3+, Repulsives T8 3+, Knight's T8 3+, Craftworld haha doesn't matter when your hiding behind-2 or more to hit modifiers
Tau iok the riptide is T7 but it's depending on drones not it's own stats to survive.

And leman russes see play since when?

Commanders see play. Yes, because they are justifiyable cheap and good shots enough. The average leman russ, not a chance.

And i dare say the increased BS has to do with why the Commander leman russes see play compared to the regular leman russ.
Add to that flat weapon costs ( no diferentiation between unit types and cost to field it) and you get the mess we have now.

I'm seeing alot of irrelevant information about why commanders are better than basic russes but not an argument countering the original point which is T8 3+ is an important statline to consider when compairing weapons performance.
And BS do perform differently against this profile.

That is what I would say justifies them being 4 points each not 3 points.

Ice_can wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Roffle, I didn't know most tanks weren't T7......

But overall yes the wounding chart is slowed.

While their may be T7 tanks the ones that actually see play are T8
Russes T8 3+, Repulsives T8 3+, Knight's T8 3+, Craftworld haha doesn't matter when your hiding behind-2 or more to hit modifiers
Tau iok the riptide is T7 but it's depending on drones not it's own stats to survive.

And leman russes see play since when?

Commanders see play. Yes, because they are justifiyable cheap and good shots enough. The average leman russ, not a chance.

And i dare say the increased BS has to do with why the Commander leman russes see play compared to the regular leman russ.
Add to that flat weapon costs ( no diferentiation between unit types and cost to field it) and you get the mess we have now.

I'm seeing alot of irrelevant information about why commanders are better than basic russes but not an argument countering the original point which is T8 3+ is an important statline to consider when compairing weapons performance.
And BS do perform differently against this profile.

That is what I would say justifies them being 4 points each not 3 points.

S-4 to S5/6 is irrelevant though. You are talking about an increase in effectiveness that is so miniscule that it can be disregarded. Ofcourse if abilities that improve throws on the wound table show up then we are talking, and that is a whole other issue but that again has to do with the bad wound chart. not necessarily with the gun itself.

As for the commanders, it's not irrelevant. The leman russ has the same supposed "good" tank profile, it still get's not fielded.--> even though by your acount it should. Which makes BS the deciding factor, especially as pointed out, when weapon cost is flat regardless of what picks said weapon.

You do realise that S5 wounds T4 on 3+, S4 only wounds on a 4+.

S4 to S5 is one of the S changes that does actually impact both infantry wounding and vehicals.

If you bothered to read then you wouldn't have missed that.

Which is why it should cost more then them but still less then the heavy bolter, which should just like the Heavy stubber drop by 50% (in case of the heavy stubber 4 pts --> 2 pts)
This is also why i am still adamant about the 3 pts.

Not Online!!! wrote:
If you bothered to read then you wouldn't have missed that.

Which is why it should cost more then them but still less then the heavy bolter, which should just like the Heavy stubber drop by 50% (in case of the heavy stubber 4 pts --> 2 pts)
This is also why i am still adamant about the 3 pts.

So is a heavy bolter 4 or 5 points?

Ice_can wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
If you bothered to read then you wouldn't have missed that.

Which is why it should cost more then them but still less then the heavy bolter, which should just like the Heavy stubber drop by 50% (in case of the heavy stubber 4 pts --> 2 pts)
This is also why i am still adamant about the 3 pts.

So is a heavy bolter 4 or 5 points?

4 for guard. 5 for Marines.

Altough it wouldn't be a tragedy if you just went with 4 ppm imo.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
If you bothered to read then you wouldn't have missed that.

Which is why it should cost more then them but still less then the heavy bolter, which should just like the Heavy stubber drop by 50% (in case of the heavy stubber 4 pts --> 2 pts)
This is also why i am still adamant about the 3 pts.

So is a heavy bolter 4 or 5 points?

4 for guard. 5 for Marines.

Altough it wouldn't be a tragedy if you just went with 4 ppm imo.

But isn't that just exposing another failure in GW design for 8th edition in that models cist more because of their stats but the weapons that depend on those stats are also charging for that stat?
Double charging for stats doesn't work either the model pays for its own stats and the weapons are a flat cost or models don't pay for stats that depend upon weapons and the weapons are priced on the users stats.
This half and half system doesn't work.

Ice_can wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Being S4 or S5 makes a big difference to the wounds caused vrs T8 (most viable vehicals) being S3/4 maters vrs infantry but S5-6 are genarilist weapons S7 is light anti tank S8+ is very AT weapons.

As proven above, big shootas are absolutely terrible at dealing damage to T8/3+ targets. Why are you ignoring that?

Because it's a lot better at it than a storm bolter.

A heavy stubber does .083 to the BS .111 or 12 Heavy stubbers on a BS4+ vrs 9 BS on a BS5+ model without any special rules applied to either.

If the stubber moves it's BS5, the BS is still BS5.
The stubber is now .056 or 18 stubbers to do a wound, or twice as many HS as BS, sure BS are terrible against heavy targets if you compair it to a lascannon etc, but it certainly outperformed the Heavy stubber.

So we are back to comparing weapons across codices?

Might as well stop discussing this.

 Jidmah wrote:
Do you really not understand that a different codex with different support auras, different stat lines, different options, different stratagems and different army traits should have an impact on how much a weapon should cost in the context of that codex?

Ice_can wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
If you bothered to read then you wouldn't have missed that.

Which is why it should cost more then them but still less then the heavy bolter, which should just like the Heavy stubber drop by 50% (in case of the heavy stubber 4 pts --> 2 pts)
This is also why i am still adamant about the 3 pts.

So is a heavy bolter 4 or 5 points?

4 for guard. 5 for Marines.

Altough it wouldn't be a tragedy if you just went with 4 ppm imo.

But isn't that just exposing another failure in GW design for 8th edition in that models cist more because of their stats but the weapons that depend on those stats are also charging for that stat?
Double charging for stats doesn't work either the model pays for its own stats and the weapons are a flat cost or models don't pay for stats that depend upon weapons and the weapons are priced on the users stats.
This half and half system doesn't work.

Yes because gw seems to need the additional space for it.

Gander a look at the am codex, Plasma specifically got a hike on better profile units, even though the better units need to allready pay more.

And ofcourse the wound table is one of the systemic failures.
Alone the excessive use if VotLW should hint at that.

It should not be the case that you should even dent a vehicle with these kind of weapons.
Yet you can.
This is also one of the reasons why the t8 is so important, it pushes you out of the heavier infantry gun effectiveness range. (S4)

May I state again my point on the problem of the bshoota?

Even if the bshoota's cost comes down, they will stay irrelevant. For bshootas to work (given that the max number available is very low and fixed unit wise) they must increase their fire rate, not decrease it's cost. Same applies to heavy bolters, I agree on that.

Ice_can wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
Point cost of Big Shoota Boy: 12 pts. Point cost of Storm Bolter Sergeant: 15 pts. Cost of the former including the MSU squad it is part of: 75 pts. Cost of the latter including the MSU squad it is part of: 67 pts.

The stat differences between the Big Shoota Boy and the Storm Bolter Sergeant:

BSB 5"Mv 5+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W1 A2 Sv6+ Assault 3 36" S5 AP0 D1
SBS 6"Mv 3+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W2 A3 Sv3+ Rapid Fire 2 24" S4 AP0 D1

So, the Storm Bolter Sergeant costs 3 points more than the Big Shoota Boy, and for those 3 points he gets +1" of movement, 50% better accuracy, +1 wound, +1 attack, 50% improved Save, 1 less shot, 12" less range, and 1 less S with his gun.

Range outside of 18" isn't going to matter much. These are anti-infantry guns attached to mobile units. They aren't sitting 36" away from their target, taking potshots.

Well if your going to make up stats for the storm bolter sargent no wonder your going to think it's better.

I know that marine's are bad and you probably haven't played against them in a year but their stats haven't changed since 3rd edition it surely can't be that hard to remeber them.

But FYI his actual stats are

6"Mv 3+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W1 A2 Sv3+

But I'm still waiting on an actual answer as to what relevance a storm bolter has to the price of a big shoota which is designed to be the equivalent of a heavy bolter.

Marine qith Heavy Bolter

23 points
6"Mv 3+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W1 A1 Sv3+ Heavy 3 36" S5 AP-1 D1

My bad. I added 1W and 1A to him. You're right, this is SO much worse than the Big Shoota Boy now. After all, now you only have +1", a 50% better chance to hit, and a 50% better chance to avoid damage. Definitely not worth the extra 3 points you'll spend over the Big Shoota Boy.

As for the Marine with Heavy Bolter... Well, let's compare them again.

12 pts for a Big Shoota Boy. 23 pts for a Heavy Bolter Marine.

BSB 5"Mv 5+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W1 A2 Sv6+ Assault 3 36" S5 AP0 D1
HBM 6"Mv 3+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W1 A1 Sv3+ Heavy 3 36" S5 AP-1 D1

So, for 11 pts, you get +1" of movement, a 50% better chance to hit, 1 less attack, 50% improved Save, and -1 AP. In other words, you're going to deal 67% more damage, take 50% less damage, and get to where you want to be more quickly. Probably not the most efficient expenditure of points, but there ya go. I'd probably say the HB is about... 4 pts too expensive. 5-6 points for it seems like a good place.

 flandarz wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
Point cost of Big Shoota Boy: 12 pts. Point cost of Storm Bolter Sergeant: 15 pts. Cost of the former including the MSU squad it is part of: 75 pts. Cost of the latter including the MSU squad it is part of: 67 pts.

The stat differences between the Big Shoota Boy and the Storm Bolter Sergeant:

BSB 5"Mv 5+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W1 A2 Sv6+ Assault 3 36" S5 AP0 D1
SBS 6"Mv 3+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W2 A3 Sv3+ Rapid Fire 2 24" S4 AP0 D1

So, the Storm Bolter Sergeant costs 3 points more than the Big Shoota Boy, and for those 3 points he gets +1" of movement, 50% better accuracy, +1 wound, +1 attack, 50% improved Save, 1 less shot, 12" less range, and 1 less S with his gun.

Range outside of 18" isn't going to matter much. These are anti-infantry guns attached to mobile units. They aren't sitting 36" away from their target, taking potshots.

Well if your going to make up stats for the storm bolter sargent no wonder your going to think it's better.

I know that marine's are bad and you probably haven't played against them in a year but their stats haven't changed since 3rd edition it surely can't be that hard to remeber them.

But FYI his actual stats are

6"Mv 3+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W1 A2 Sv3+

But I'm still waiting on an actual answer as to what relevance a storm bolter has to the price of a big shoota which is designed to be the equivalent of a heavy bolter.

Marine qith Heavy Bolter

23 points
6"Mv 3+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W1 A1 Sv3+ Heavy 3 36" S5 AP-1 D1

My bad. I added 1W and 1A to him. You're right, this is SO much worse than the Big Shoota Boy now. After all, now you only have +1", a 50% better chance to hit, and a 50% better chance to avoid damage. Definitely not worth the extra 3 points you'll spend over the Big Shoota Boy.

As for the Marine with Heavy Bolter... Well, let's compare them again.

12 pts for a Big Shoota Boy. 23 pts for a Heavy Bolter Marine.

BSB 5"Mv 5+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W1 A2 Sv6+ Assault 3 36" S5 AP0 D1
HBM 6"Mv 3+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W1 A1 Sv3+ Heavy 3 36" S5 AP-1 D1

So, for 11 pts, you get +1" of movement, a 50% better chance to hit, 1 less attack, 50% improved Save, and -1 AP. In other words, you're going to deal 67% more damage, take 50% less damage, and get to where you want to be more quickly. Probably not the most efficient expenditure of points, but there ya go. I'd probably say the HB is about... 4 pts too expensive. 5-6 points for it seems like a good place.

At 3+ you are looking at a 50% increased chance to avoid damage (4x approx more resilient to ap0).

Oh. Well then. That's even better then.

Well, you're also off a bit in that it's not a SB Sarge vs Big Shoota Boy. It's a 5man Tac squad with SB on Sarge and Heavy Bolter vs 10 Boyz with 9 Shootas and a Big Shoota.

As for T7 vs T8, T8 is more common, but T7 is not exactly rare. The Pred and Serpent chasis are T7. Not in every list, but certainly not rare. However, you're looking at doubling the firepower of one Ork Shoota out of 10 - so going from virtually nothing to double virtually nothing. For every three 30-man 3-BS Shoota Boy squads, you're looking at one additional HP (vs T7 3+).


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BS 5+ -> 3+ is a 100% improvement to hit (doubling the hits).
BS 3+ -> 5+ is a 50% reduction to hit (cutting hits in half).

A 5+ is 50% as good as a 3+, but a 3+ is 200% as good as a 5+.

You care about hits, not misses. Misses do nothing.

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
May I state again my point on the problem of the bshoota?

Even if the bshoota's cost comes down, they will stay irrelevant. For bshootas to work (given that the max number available is very low and fixed unit wise) they must increase their fire rate, not decrease it's cost. Same applies to heavy bolters, I agree on that.

I agree, but sadly GW seems to be unwilling to adjust statline for balance purposes outside of codex releases.

Ice_can wrote:


What does a S5 weapon wound a tank or knight on 5+ what does an auto cannon wound on 5+. Welcome to flat wounding charts.
Being S4 or S5 makes a big difference to the wounds caused vrs T8 (most viable vehicals) being S3/4 maters vrs infantry but S5-6 are genarilist weapons S7 is light anti tank S8+ is very AT weapons.
A strom bolter does .074 vrs T8 3+, a Big shoota does .111 wounds without any strategums or special rules.
Its the same reason assualt cannons are costed insanely high now, S5-6 is a very effective strength in the 8th edition system.

Be careful, you are making a good argument against your own point. A stormbolter Vs. a T8 Vehicle does 4 shots (didn't move), 2.66 hits and .44 wounds (Dmg is determined by save so lets leave that blank for now since both weapons are AP0)

A Big Shoota on the other hand has 3.5 shots on average for 1.17 hits wounding on 5s so .38 wounds Not sure how you managed to get the math looking like a stormbolter is worse but ok. You seem to forget that hitting on 3s means x2 more hits on average which balances out the 50% less change to wound. So a big shoota with 4 shots would be a lot closer to the dmg potential of a Stormbolter vs a T8 platform.

4 shots = 4.67 shots for 1.56 hits and wounding on 5s means .519 wounds on average.

But lets stick to the actual 4 shots vs 3 atm. So that 2pt upgrade stormbolter, if it doesn't move or is on a platform that doesnt care about moving, does MORE damage for 40% the cost of a Big Shoota to a T8 platform. Put that same thing up against infantry which has already been shown ad nauseam to be better then the big shoota and you have successfully killed your own argument. Now an argument can be made for the fact that the BS has +12' range, which has also been shown to be mostly irrelevant, but lets say it is worth something because of the vehicles that take it. So 2pts would be fair for the Big Shoota simply because the Stormbolter outperforms it in most categories BUT it does have more range which to me is a wash. This brings me to a very intuitive comment made by orkimedez_atalaya

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
May I state again my point on the problem of the bshoota?

Even if the bshoota's cost comes down, they will stay irrelevant. For bshootas to work (given that the max number available is very low and fixed unit wise) they must increase their fire rate, not decrease it's cost. Same applies to heavy bolters, I agree on that.

I think you are right, even if you made it 1pt its still going to be a choice between taking it and losing CC and not taking it and losing ranged weapons fire on infantry, but on vehicles, it will still be a forced weapon to take OR just not taken at all (I Wouldn't put any on my CC Battlewagons) So then the question becomes how many shots should it get and at what points cost. I think 5shots for 4ppm is good. This gives the BS a 60% increase in ROF while also lowering the price by 1pt. For comparison lets put it up against the Storm Bolter again Vs a T8 Vehicle and Vs aT3 infantry maggot.

SB: 4 shots, 2.66 hits and .44 wounds
NEW Big Shoota: 5.83 shots (Includes Dx3) = 1.94 hits and wounding on 5s = .65 dmg.

SO the Big shoota costs TWICE as much as the stormbolter and inflicts Roughly 50% more dmg vs T8......that sounds pretty damned good to me.

Vs those pesky T3 screen units

SB: 4 shots, 2.66 hits and wounding on 3s = 1.77 dmg
NEW BS: 5.83 shots, 1.94 hits and wounding on 3s = 1.29 dmg So the New Big shoota is STILL weaker then the Stormbolter Vs T3, what about T4 which is less common but might give the advantage to the New Big shoota?

SB: 4 shots, 2.66 hits and 1.33dmg
New BS: 5.83 shots, 1.94 hits and 1.29dmg still So even Vs. T4 the Stormbolter is still better.

How about Vs T5, supposedly where the Big Shoota finds its niche because S5 vs T5 compared to the SB's S4 vs T5?

SB: 4 shots, 2.66 hits and .89dmg
New BS: 5.83 shots, 1.94 hits and .97dmg, SWEET! The New Big shoota costs TWICE as much as the SB and puts out less then 10% more dmg Vs T5. Now I did all this math off the top of my head so if any is inaccurate please point it out but the gist of this is that even with a 1pt reduction and a 60% increase in ROF the Big shoota is still not as good as the SB vs the targets mentioned above. as mentioned earlier an argument could be made for the increased range and the fact that its assault as opposed to RF but those are minor and situational buffs that really don't factor in that often (At least the weapons types) The extra range is a decent argument but I would say the SB being better almost across the board, and being better in every way possible when you factor in costs is a fair trade off.

Finally,

 Xenomancers wrote:
No one uses tac squads because they suck balls. You are going to be shooting at t3 5+ infanty most likely. If you check stratagems on them you can do substantial damage.
Dajump 30 shoota boys
Shoot twice with more dakka. Youll put about 30 wounds on something youll do slightly more wounds for slgihtly more points with big shootas.
Hoenstly you are right it is a lost cause. Orks are a top teir army and shootaboys are their core in tons of lists. You guys complaining like you are GK up in here. Who BTW for 210 points get a single strike squad with OP storm bolters for 210 points. It gets about the same number of hits and wounds - it can't shoot twice has 1/3 of the CC attacks and 1/3 of the wounds and it's save gets removed down to a 5+ by asbout halfd the weapons in the game where and ork army is likely veilded under a 5++ save bubble .On the whole strike squads are actrually a pretty good unit by marine standards too.

This type of argument is just invalid from the get go. If you "Da Jump" So HQ slot and 62pt model, Use a 210pt unit, spend 4CP and give it another HQ with a piece of gear for another 119pts (75pts for index) to give them a 5++ I really dislike arguments that use this kind of broken logic. "Look shoota boyz are better than a similarly pointed unit from arguably the worst codex in the game.....if you spend about 1/3rd of your CP, place 2 HQ's near them (BTW good luck jumping boyz and being in range of a KFF) and spend anywhere from 137 to 181pts extra for HQs to make that happen.

The point of this topic was not to say "Marines are great buff boyz" But was to point out the very specific weapon in the ork codex which is never taken except as a requirement and could use a boost to make it worth taking, specifically on infantry units. Most Ork players have 10-20 Big Shoota boyz who have been collecting dust for years because they haven't been relevant in so long. They saw a brief spell of playtime in some lists who used them as *Counts as Kommandos* but even then it was a tough choice between the Big shoota and arguably one of the worst weapons in the game, the Burna....which was Free What does that say about a weapons system that you are having a hard time choosing between it and a free option. Both weapons need a heavy upgrade but for now lets focus on that Big Shoota. Please don't use anymore logical fallacies. I don't care about the HB or the Devourer or any other weapons systems at the moment. But if you pushed me I would argue they all need hefty price reductions as well. Two things can be true at the same time, the Big Shoota needs a buff and the HB needs a price cut.

So if a big shooter is going to cost 3 points, how much of a discount do I get on assault bolters?
18" assault 3, S5, AP -1, D1
Currently 10 points.
It trades half the range for AP-1
Can I get them dropped to 3 points as well?

I suppose that depends. Do the units which take the Assault Bolter have better than a 5+ BS? Are the traits of your Faction geared around shooting or CC? Can you take as many Assault Bolters as you like within a unit, or are they limited to only a few per max squad?

That said, I *do* feel like 10 points is pretty high, even if you're hitting most of the shots you're firing, you're part of a Faction that prefers ranged combats, and you can take a feth-ton of them.

Zustiur wrote:
So if a big shooter is going to cost 3 points, how much of a discount do I get on assault bolters?
18" assault 3, S5, AP -1, D1
Currently 10 points.
It trades half the range for AP-1
Can I get them dropped to 3 points as well?

Again, i would argue for 4pts and upgrade to Assault 5 for the Big Shoota. I don't play SM to know enough to make a comment about Assault bolters and what their appropriate cost should be. But since its literally a shorter ranged Heavy Bolter I don't know why they should be 10pts instead of 5 or 6 at the least.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW, at the moment of this post, 74% of people think 3pts or less. Be interesting to see if people think my suggestion of 4ppm and 5 shots each would be seen as fair by the majority as well. Still waiting for people to explain how the current iteration of the Big Shoota should be 6ppm though. And comparing it to another over priced weapon as justification is not a solid argument.

SemperMortis wrote:

Ice_can wrote:


What does a S5 weapon wound a tank or knight on 5+ what does an auto cannon wound on 5+. Welcome to flat wounding charts.
Being S4 or S5 makes a big difference to the wounds caused vrs T8 (most viable vehicals) being S3/4 maters vrs infantry but S5-6 are genarilist weapons S7 is light anti tank S8+ is very AT weapons.
A strom bolter does .074 vrs T8 3+, a Big shoota does .111 wounds without any strategums or special rules.
Its the same reason assualt cannons are costed insanely high now, S5-6 is a very effective strength in the 8th edition system.

Be careful, you are making a good argument against your own point. A stormbolter Vs. a T8 Vehicle does 4 shots (didn't move), 2.66 hits and .44 wounds (Dmg is determined by save so lets leave that blank for now since both weapons are AP0)

A Big Shoota on the other hand has 3.5 shots on average for 1.17 hits wounding on 5s so .38 wounds Not sure how you managed to get the math looking like a stormbolter is worse but ok. You seem to forget that hitting on 3s means x2 more hits on average which balances out the 50% less change to wound. So a big shoota with 4 shots would be a lot closer to the dmg potential of a Stormbolter vs a T8 platform.

4 shots = 4.67 shots for 1.56 hits and wounding on 5s means .519 wounds on average.

But lets stick to the actual 4 shots vs 3 atm. So that 2pt upgrade stormbolter, if it doesn't move or is on a platform that doesnt care about moving, does MORE damage for 40% the cost of a Big Shoota to a T8 platform. Put that same thing up against infantry which has already been shown ad nauseam to be better then the big shoota and you have successfully killed your own argument. Now an argument can be made for the fact that the BS has +12' range, which has also been shown to be mostly irrelevant, but lets say it is worth something because of the vehicles that take it. So 2pts would be fair for the Big Shoota simply because the Stormbolter outperforms it in most categories BUT it does have more range which to me is a wash. This brings me to a very intuitive comment made by orkimedez_atalaya

Except your making 1 massive assumption that all storm bolters benefit from Beta Bolters, they don't.

A storm bolter is 2 shots at 24 it's only 4 shots at 12.
If the targets at 12 inches why arnt the orks just charging anyway?

Marine's have already payed points for Beta Bolters it's GW's concession that they over point costed marines, ie it's not a 2 point weapon its a 2 point weapon under a 1-2 point ability.

Even then Beta bolter is conditional, if your forcing the marines to stay still while the orks moves it's not a 24 inch range and a 36 inch range its 24 vrs 41 inches or an additional 17 inches of range for the orks. 17 inches is certainly worth a lot of difference in points.

But just incase your wondering Sisters also pay 2 points per storm bolter withou beta Bolter rules.

But at this point it's become clear noone actually is willing to listen you've already decided that you have all the answers.

Beta Bolters affect any bolt weapon. Including Storm Bolters.

Edit: The only time they don't work is with SIA.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Beta Bolters affect any bolt weapon. Including Storm Bolters.

Edit: The only time they don't work is with SIA.

Doesn't work on vehicals who pay Oh yeah 2 points per storm bolter.

Sisters of Battle they pay 2 points per storm bolter, do they have Bolter Discipline? Hint the answer is NO.

Is a Storm bolter 2 points each yes.
Is a beta bolter free No, it's to justify 1 or 2 of the extra points GW want marines to be worth.
Is beta bolter rule on a storm bolter worth 2 points, no it's not but a marine with a Storm bolter hasn't payed 2 points he's payed 3 or 4 points for that shooting.

Ice_can wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Beta Bolters affect any bolt weapon. Including Storm Bolters.

Edit: The only time they don't work is with SIA.

Doesn't work on vehicals who pay Oh yeah 2 points per storm bolter.

Sisters of Battle they pay 2 points per storm bolter, do they have Bolter Discipline? Hint the answer is NO.

Is a Storm bolter 2 points each yes.
Is a beta bolter free No, it's to justify 1 or 2 of the extra points GW want marines to be worth.
Is beta bolter rule on a storm bolter worth 2 points, no it's not but a marine with a Storm bolter hasn't payed 2 points he's payed 3 or 4 points for that shooting.

So you're saying a Storm Bolter is a 2 point gun, and Beta Bolters makes Marines fairly costed? That's pretty optimistic of you.

And even with only 2 shots on a BS 3+ platform, it still does 5/9 unsaved wounds to Boyz (.56 wounds) as compared to a BS 5+ DDD! Big Shoota, that does 35/54 (.65 wounds).

So, for less than half the points, it does more than 80% of the damage.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Beta Bolters affect any bolt weapon. Including Storm Bolters.

Edit: The only time they don't work is with SIA.

Doesn't work on vehicals who pay Oh yeah 2 points per storm bolter.

Sisters of Battle they pay 2 points per storm bolter, do they have Bolter Discipline? Hint the answer is NO.

Is a Storm bolter 2 points each yes.
Is a beta bolter free No, it's to justify 1 or 2 of the extra points GW want marines to be worth.
Is beta bolter rule on a storm bolter worth 2 points, no it's not but a marine with a Storm bolter hasn't payed 2 points he's payed 3 or 4 points for that shooting.

So you're saying a Storm Bolter is a 2 point gun, and Beta Bolters makes Marines fairly costed? That's pretty optimistic of you.

And even with only 2 shots on a BS 3+ platform, it still does 5/9 unsaved wounds to Boyz (.56 wounds) as compared to a BS 5+ DDD! Big Shoota, that does 35/54 (.65 wounds).

So, for less than half the points, it does more than 80% of the damage.

I never said GW could point things properly also beta bolter rule accounts for 1 or 2 points per Marine, it make intercessors actually feel less like a liability, the issue is as has been 1W elite infantry doesn't work in the edition of rerolls upon rerolls with such a flat wounding chart and the changes to the Ap system.

Just for some perspective on the matter, in a 2,000 point list paying an extra point or not paying an extra point is about how many points total?

I my impression of the actually thread (only partly acknowledging the poll) seems to have been largely been over 3 points vs. 4 points. Which has me thinking isn't that only like 20 points more? Which is like 1% of an army list? I don't play Orks outside of Kill Team so I don't know exactly how many points we are talking about here.

Don't get me wrong, I am good distance from the competitive side of town, but it does seem that a lot of digital ink has been used over that 1% here assuming my guess on the over cost of said points is correct.

S5 weapons are very generalist in 8th. They wound the magic t8 on a 5.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Just for some perspective on the matter, in a 2,000 point list paying an extra point or not paying an extra point is about how many points total?

I my impression of the actually thread (only partly acknowledging the poll) seems to have been largely been over 3 points vs. 4 points. Which has me thinking isn't that only like 20 points more? Which is like 1% of an army list? I don't play Orks outside of Kill Team so I don't know exactly how many points we are talking about here.

Don't get me wrong, I am good distance from the competitive side of town, but it does seem that a lot of digital ink has been used over that 1% here assuming my guess on the over cost of said points is correct.

For orkz at the moment its a bit weirder then that. because at the moment, if you lowered the price to 4ppm and gave them more shots like I suggested it would actually COST orkz more because at the moment we don't take Big Shootas....pretty much ever, unless the unit is forced to I.E. Trukkz or some Planes/buggies.

But lets put it this way, in your average, run of the mill ork list, you will see roughly 3 full mobz of boyz and a few vehicles that can equip big shootas. So on average they could bring upwards of 12-14 Big Shootas. If you gave them a 1pt price cut and increased ROF to 5 you would see orkz paying 44-56pts MORE in weapons that previously hadn't been taken. Thats anywhere from 60-70 S5 shots that hadn't been there before.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
S5 weapons are very generalist in 8th. They wound the magic t8 on a 5.

This is true, but, as I showed earlier using a formula for beta stormbolters, they inflict MORE damage per point then a Big Shoota does even though they are S5 and the storm bolter is S4. While S does matter, it doesn't negate # of shots and Ballistic Skill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

Except your making 1 massive assumption that all storm bolters benefit from Beta Bolters, they don't.

A storm bolter is 2 shots at 24 it's only 4 shots at 12.
If the targets at 12 inches why arnt the orks just charging anyway?

Marine's have already payed points for Beta Bolters it's GW's concession that they over point costed marines, ie it's not a 2 point weapon its a 2 point weapon under a 1-2 point ability.

Even then Beta bolter is conditional, if your forcing the marines to stay still while the orks moves it's not a 24 inch range and a 36 inch range its 24 vrs 41 inches or an additional 17 inches of range for the orks. 17 inches is certainly worth a lot of difference in points.

But just incase your wondering Sisters also pay 2 points per storm bolter withou beta Bolter rules.

But at this point it's become clear noone actually is willing to listen you've already decided that you have all the answers.

How often do I see tactical Marines moving?.......basically never. You might see 1 tac squad move around a bit to get into a better position but for the most part they are part of the gunline. Also, you mention orkz technically have a threat range of 41 with those Big Shootas because they are assault....well you are correct...but lets see, how often do I bring Big Shootas right now in boyz mobs....ohh right, never. So at the moment their threat range is nil because they don't get on the table. But even if they do, my boyz mobs are doing 1 of 3 things. 1: Camping in the back and near a Weirdboy so they can get Da Jumped....Big shootas are useless for them and even with 41' range they won't hit anything because they are probably hiding out of LOS to avoid getting pulped. 2: On the deployment line getting ready to WAAAAAGGHHHHH, and they will be within 18' of their targets turn 1 because they will be advancing which further reduces the accuracy to 6+ and the added range is useless and 3: Safely off the table in reserve, waiting to get tellyported onto the table 8' from the enemy because they are Evil Sunz and will be making a charge that turn.....41' range again useless. So the range for boyz is USELESS 9 times out of 10.