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Luxury.

When I were a Yoof, you ‘ad to pay points to have a chance of sending your shooty HQ into CC.

Moriarty wrote:
Why bring Trukks? You can load the Burnaz into the Stompaz. ;-)

Finally! A weapon to surpass the Warlord Titan!

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:

Moriarty wrote:
Why bring Trukks? You can load the Burnaz into the Stompaz. ;-)

Finally! A weapon to surpass Metal Gear!

FTFY

Now that marines are getting free, and better, Dakka Dakka Dakka, as well as an Ork Attack statline - I think this question needs to re-surface again.

Considering how irrelevant another codex is to the health of ours, I don't think so.

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Now that marines are getting free, and better, Dakka Dakka Dakka, as well as an Ork Attack statline - I think this question needs to re-surface again.

Gotta agree with Jidmah here, vanilla marines weren't doing so great as they basically boiled down to gorillaman+hellblasters+parking lot for a lot of their builds. As a BT enthusiast, I could see how iffy their army was from a design standpoint. The DDD! equivalent only comes from bolt weaponry and only for CF and IF, so that's not a good comparison. Shock Assault is good, don't get me wrong, but it isn't as big a game changer as it is for their entire army benefiting from chapter tactics. In any case, we'll (hopefully) get the needed changes for our army when the next CA swings around this winter.

 Jidmah wrote:
Considering how irrelevant another codex is to the health of ours, I don't think so.

Mixed reaction from me. For the most part it looks like most of the SM's chapter traits are similar (no surprise there) to Ork Kulture's but they get a bit more benefit from them.


Crimson fists: +1 WS in CC against any unit with 5 or more models....most units are 10+ so this is iffy but will likely be useful, also puts the CF player in a situation where they want to min/max to get as many small squads as possible. But here is the big part, all of their bolt weapons generate an extra HIT not shot on a 6+. So if they have 6 shots statistically they will generate 5 hits. this is basically just giving them 2+ to hit with bolt weapons without actually saying it. DX3 gives orks an extra SHOT not an extra hit.

Black Templars: They get Ere we go AND a 5+ FNP against Mortal wounds, not bad.

Imperial Fists: Ignores cover and hit rolls of 6 with bolt weapons generate 1 extra hit.

Raven Guard: -1 to hit when in terrain and gets cover when they are 12' or further away from the enemy....or basically almost the entire game. So this is Blood Axes on steroids. Blood Axes are 18' range not 12 to get a cover save and they get to charge OR shoot if they fell back. I'll take ravenguard every single day of the week thank you very much.

Salamanders: DeffSkullz +1. Can reroll 1 hit and 1 wound per phase basically and are immune armor loss from -1AP weapons.

Iron Hands: This is just SnakeBites +2. gives the entire army 6+ FNP AND Overwatch on 5s AND doubles the # of wounds on models with damage charts for the purpose of bracketing. So to reduce that Land Raider to its 2nd bracket now requires 50% more damage.

Smurfs are still smurfy nothing really changed for them, and white scars are just evil sunz that instead of extra movement get to charge even if they advanced. Ohh and they get no penalty to heavy weapons for moving.


But i do agree that this doesn't necessarily harm orkz. In my opinion though it does bring back the debate that Ork boyz should be 6ppm not 7. The only real buff they got in the codex was dakkax3 and the BFD Melta bomb per 10 orkz. Now that 2 SM factions have a similar ability i think going back to 6 makes sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But, the big thing in regards to Big shoota's discussion. 2 factions are now able to seriously out dakka a big shoota with a weapon that is 40% the price.

30 stormbolters (Common denominator) cost 60pts and put out 120shots of S4 at 24' range if they don't move. Those 120 shots will now generate 100 hits on average (not going to use buffings characters for this) so against T4 3+ saves that is 50 wounds and 17ish damage.

60pts worth of Big shoota's nets you 12 big shootas which put out 36shots which net you 14 hits on average which generate 10ish wounds and against a 3+ save that is 3.3ish damage.

In what worlds does that make sense? And the argument that T5+ makes the Big shoota better is false as well. Those Stormbolters are now significantly more powerful in every which way to a big shoota, and now the argument goes from 4pts for a Big shoota putting out 4 or 5 shots to a 3pt Big shoota that does 5 or 6 shots.

They are overdoing the chapter tactics for sure. 2-3 part bonus not necessary and too much. It is worth noting that the exploding 6's only works on bolter weapons and I doubt that they will exceed what DW can do already.

 Xenomancers wrote:
They are overdoing the chapter tactics for sure. 2-3 part bonus not necessary and too much. It is worth noting that the exploding 6's only works on bolter weapons and I doubt that they will exceed what DW can do already.

I just posted in the ork tactic thread, this is the gist of it.

Couple of things to think about when facing Marines in the future.

1: They can now inflict some serious damage turn 1 with standard bolt weapons. and

2: They can now do some serious damage on the charge.

So look at turn 1 right now, orkz move and advance because that is what we do. Those SM players, the smart ones at least, will still be pretty close to 15-20' away. Instead of getting shot with 8 bolters shooting once you are now getting hit with 8 bolters shooting twice AND they get exploding 6s. So now its 16 shots for 10.3 hits and then 2.6ish more from exploding 6s so on average 13 hits, that is 6.5 wounds and against our amazing save of 6+ that is 5-6 dead Orkz, previously it was 8 shots, 5.36 hits and 2.68 wounds for roughly 2 dead Orkz. So they have gone up SIGNIFICANTLY in ranged damage on turn 1. Now, lets say we get close enough to charge turn 2. Now we are still eating overwatch with every 6 exploding meaning TWICE as many wounds in overwatch. If you fail and they counter attack instead of getting 11 attacks (2 on sergeant) you are getting hit with 21 attacks, so almost DOUBLE the damage in CC we were suffering before.

Now that scenario isn't meant as an actual real world scenario nor is it meant to be taken as "THIS WILL HAPPEN!" this is merely to point out the massive increase in damage that SM players can now inflict upon us with their bolter drill upgrade and the exploding 6 upgrade and the +1 attacks on the charge upgrade.

Imperial Fists just became hardcore ork killers and you guys need to take them a lot more seriously then you have in the past. And keep in mind, this is before we see all the other new toys and rules they are going to be getting. From the stuff i have seen, they don't look like they will be getting nerfed anywhere like our boyz were.

Every chapter gets the bolter upgrade of not moving = 2 shots at 24 so i expect orkz glorious 8 months of success in 10+ years is over.

I've said this before and I'll say it again as you keep getting it wrong 30 stormbolters do cost 60 points but they don't have 120 shots of S4 at 24 inches. They have 60 no ifs no buts that is the rules.

Whine and mone all you want about Bolter discipline but atleast be honest about the stats.
As other BS3 + armies without Bolter discipline still pay 2 points per storm bolter. A marine with a bolter is 15 points combined.
Or are you still trying to imply that marines are worth 13 points each (They arn't in 8th edition, the bolter rule is to justify some of this overcosting).

Two things:

1) Even without Bolter Discipline, a Storm Bolter frequently comes out ahead or barely behind a Big Shoota at 24".

2) Marines are overcosted. But that's not a reason to overcost other stuff-that's a reason to fix them.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Two things:

1) Even without Bolter Discipline, a Storm Bolter frequently comes out ahead or barely behind a Big Shoota at 24".

2) Marines are overcosted. But that's not a reason to overcost other stuff-that's a reason to fix them.

Which I'm onboard with he just keeps ketting this point wrong every time he does maths he says a 2 point SB does just automatically get bolter discipline which it doesn't.

Ice_can wrote:
I've said this before and I'll say it again as you keep getting it wrong 30 stormbolters do cost 60 points but they don't have 120 shots of S4 at 24 inches. They have 60 no ifs no buts that is the rules.

Whine and mone all you want about Bolter discipline but atleast be honest about the stats.
As other BS3 + armies without Bolter discipline still pay 2 points per storm bolter. A marine with a bolter is 15 points combined.
Or are you still trying to imply that marines are worth 13 points each (They arn't in 8th edition, the bolter rule is to justify some of this overcosting).

And you are wrong They have 4 shots if they stand still because of the beta rule. Unless they changed that and I am unaware of it.

SemperMortis wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
I've said this before and I'll say it again as you keep getting it wrong 30 stormbolters do cost 60 points but they don't have 120 shots of S4 at 24 inches. They have 60 no ifs no buts that is the rules.

Whine and mone all you want about Bolter discipline but atleast be honest about the stats.
As other BS3 + armies without Bolter discipline still pay 2 points per storm bolter. A marine with a bolter is 15 points combined.
Or are you still trying to imply that marines are worth 13 points each (They arn't in 8th edition, the bolter rule is to justify some of this overcosting).

And you are wrong They have 4 shots if they stand still because of the beta rule. Unless they changed that and I am unaware of it.

Ice Can refers to other units that can take Storm Bolters that don't benefit, such as Rhinos or Sisters of Battle.

Marines are the most common wielders (game-wise), but not the only ones.

In other words, at best, you're talking past each other.
At worst, you're the wrong one, Mortis.

I kinda just assumed to said 60 shots because he expects all Marines to be constantly moving and also staying outside of 12".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a side note, I'm of the mind that Orkz, Necrons, and Tau all need to have more "powerful" (or atleast more versatile) Codices in comparison to the Factions who can take allies. Either that, or the current ally system needs work. But that's an entirely different discussion anyway.

 JNAProductions wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
I've said this before and I'll say it again as you keep getting it wrong 30 stormbolters do cost 60 points but they don't have 120 shots of S4 at 24 inches. They have 60 no ifs no buts that is the rules.

Whine and mone all you want about Bolter discipline but atleast be honest about the stats.
As other BS3 + armies without Bolter discipline still pay 2 points per storm bolter. A marine with a bolter is 15 points combined.
Or are you still trying to imply that marines are worth 13 points each (They arn't in 8th edition, the bolter rule is to justify some of this overcosting).

And you are wrong They have 4 shots if they stand still because of the beta rule. Unless they changed that and I am unaware of it.

Ice Can refers to other units that can take Storm Bolters that don't benefit, such as Rhinos or Sisters of Battle.

Marines are the most common wielders (game-wise), but not the only ones.

In other words, at best, you're talking past each other.
At worst, you're the wrong one, Mortis.

YMMV But for every Stormbolter NOT on a marine infantry model, dreadnought, or bike, I have seen at the very least 500 that were. So yeah, SOB's are a thing and vehicles are a thing but MOST stormbolters are on the models i listed, furthermore, those models USUALLY stand still or are a terminator/dreadnought/bike and don't care about moving. So yeah, Stormbolters FOR THE MOST PART get 4 shots a turn, not 2.

So thank you for making me spell something out that should have been blatantly obvious.

Furthermore, 2 chapters of Marines NOW get exploding 6s so for them Stormbolters are even better.

But to get to the point, now with all of these changes to SM, it is obvious that the Big shoota is drastically over priced and under performing in almost every situation when compared to a 2pt stormbolter. And, instead of increasing the price of the stormbolter which would make it garbage i am advocating for buffing the big shoota to bring it more inline with its level of firepower and price per point of damage.

I won't wade into this debate, but it really wouldn't hurt if the big shoota was cheaper would it? If it was 2 or 3 points we're not breaking the game regardless of the math.

If we're not seeing Big Shootas then GW needs to drop the price to stimulate their use.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I won't wade into this debate, but it really wouldn't hurt if the big shoota was cheaper would it? If it was 2 or 3 points we're not breaking the game regardless of the math.

If we're not seeing Big Shootas then GW needs to drop the price to stimulate their use.

Is also a availability problem.
The main source for big shootas is vehicles, mandatory Choices or add ons.
1 :10 boyz is bad saturation and the reasons why it isn't picked over sluga /choppa option was also explained extensively.

But yeah 2-3 pts would certainly not make or break the game.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I won't wade into this debate, but it really wouldn't hurt if the big shoota was cheaper would it? If it was 2 or 3 points we're not breaking the game regardless of the math.

If we're not seeing Big Shootas then GW needs to drop the price to stimulate their use.

Is also a availability problem.
The main source for big shootas is vehicles, mandatory Choices or add ons.
1 :10 boyz is bad saturation and the reasons why it isn't picked over sluga /choppa option was also explained extensively.

But yeah 2-3 pts would certainly not make or break the game.

Availability is a huge problem for me.

In 3rd we could take up to 4 of them in a mob of any size the boys and 3 and the nob the 4th.
After that it was 1 in 10 and none for the nob.
There is no practical reason to take them any more. If they were 2 in 10 I think even at the current price I would consider them again.

 JNAProductions wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
I've said this before and I'll say it again as you keep getting it wrong 30 stormbolters do cost 60 points but they don't have 120 shots of S4 at 24 inches. They have 60 no ifs no buts that is the rules.

Whine and mone all you want about Bolter discipline but atleast be honest about the stats.
As other BS3 + armies without Bolter discipline still pay 2 points per storm bolter. A marine with a bolter is 15 points combined.
Or are you still trying to imply that marines are worth 13 points each (They arn't in 8th edition, the bolter rule is to justify some of this overcosting).

And you are wrong They have 4 shots if they stand still because of the beta rule. Unless they changed that and I am unaware of it.

Ice Can refers to other units that can take Storm Bolters that don't benefit, such as Rhinos or Sisters of Battle.

Marines are the most common wielders (game-wise), but not the only ones.

In other words, at best, you're talking past each other.
At worst, you're the wrong one, Mortis.

Are marines the most common wielders? Isn't Storm Bolter not on the Marine special weapon list?

I thought it was basically SoB, GK, [DW], and tank pintles?

They're not. They're on the Combi-Weapon list.

Also, I believe there was a point earlier in this thread saying the BS had to be priced higher "Because it had a lot more damage potential because of dakka dakka dakka".

Ah, here we are.

 Xenomancers wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
2 Points, on par with a Heavy Stubber being 2 pts on a BS4+ platform

Every ork has dakka dakka. Literally doubling a weapons potential. They should get 0 discounts for their bs 5 as a result. The weapon is clearly superior to a stubber considering it's +1 str and assault.

Stormbolter potential is now doubled Xeno. Should we double the storm bolter points too?

Except it isn't doubled outside one bad Chapter Tactic and one pretty good one. Orks have Dakka×3 as a universal rule themselves.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Except it isn't doubled outside one bad Chapter Tactic and one pretty good one. Orks have Dakka×3 as a universal rule themselves.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe I'm talking about Sormbolters, which get the DakkaDakkaDakkav2Improved.

The Big Shoota has a 1 in 5,832 chance of landing 6 shots (1 in 1728 with Freebooters Procced, and something like a 1 in 3000 chance with Bad Moonz rerolls). A Stormbolter has a 1 in 1296 chance of landing 8 shots (albeit under ideal conditions of either not moving or being within 12", and having the appropriate Chapter Tactic). One of these have significantly better chances of happening, meaning that the "potential" for doubling the number of shots is far greater.

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Also, I believe there was a point earlier in this thread saying the BS had to be priced higher "Because it had a lot more damage potential because of dakka dakka dakka".

Ah, here we are.

 Xenomancers wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
2 Points, on par with a Heavy Stubber being 2 pts on a BS4+ platform

Every ork has dakka dakka. Literally doubling a weapons potential. They should get 0 discounts for their bs 5 as a result. The weapon is clearly superior to a stubber considering it's +1 str and assault.

Stormbolter potential is now doubled Xeno. Should we double the storm bolter points too?

I was speaking about the fact orks are BS 5. It is mitigated by dakka dakka bringing them closer to bs 4+ but also crucially doubling weapon potential. Their weapons should be costed like they are BS 4 is what I was saying. Dakka Dakka also isn't an army trait - it is a free ability that most orks get - it also effects really powerful weapons where imperial firsts only effects bolt weapons. Also I am in agreement with you that the new space marine traits are over the top. A lot of ork ones are too. Freebootas and evilsuns are quite good traits. It's also pretty fair to say space marines are overcosted and orks aren't. Also don't ignore the fact I think the big shoota should be dropped in points - I just don't think it should be 1 or 2 points.

On average, Dakkax3 brings a BS5+ (33.3% chance to hit) to a BS4.6+ (38.9% chance). Closer to 4+, but still MUCH closer to 5+. Rounded to the closest result on the dice, that's still a 5+. And I did the math on the chances of actually doubling your output. Suffice it to say, you could play every day for a year or more and never see it happen.

The "really powerful weapons" that Dakkax3 affects are already pretty highly priced. A SAG is essentially a 13 pt model with a 70 pt gun, for example. Even a Smasha is a 20 pt model with a 15 pt gun, and it's probably the best example of a cheap, powerful unit in the Ork Codex.

Space Marines are over-costed, but that doesn't mean Orkz aren't as well. Plenty of things in our Codex are overpriced. The Stompa could be 200 pts cheaper and STILL cost too much. And that's just the most extreme example.

I think 1 to 2 points for the Big Shoota is fine. People already mathed it out for you, and gave you the statistics of the units that can take it. Would it be a great gun for Marines? I dunno, maybe? But for Orkz, it's a tax and nothing more. Most players would rather be able to drop those 5 points literally anywhere else.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I was speaking about the fact orks are BS 5. It is mitigated by dakka dakka bringing them closer to bs 4+ but also crucially doubling weapon potential. Their weapons should be costed like they are BS 4 is what I was saying. Dakka Dakka also isn't an army trait - it is a free ability that most orks get - it also effects really powerful weapons where imperial firsts only effects bolt weapons. Also I am in agreement with you that the new space marine traits are over the top. A lot of ork ones are too. Freebootas and evilsuns are quite good traits. It's also pretty fair to say space marines are overcosted and orks aren't. Also don't ignore the fact I think the big shoota should be dropped in points - I just don't think it should be 1 or 2 points.

DakkaDakkaDakka plus Bad Moons trait (re-roll ones) is still worse than BS4 or BS5 with full re-rolls.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I was speaking about the fact orks are BS 5. It is mitigated by dakka dakka bringing them closer to bs 4+ but also crucially doubling weapon potential. Their weapons should be costed like they are BS 4 is what I was saying. Dakka Dakka also isn't an army trait - it is a free ability that most orks get - it also effects really powerful weapons where imperial firsts only effects bolt weapons. Also I am in agreement with you that the new space marine traits are over the top. A lot of ork ones are too. Freebootas and evilsuns are quite good traits. It's also pretty fair to say space marines are overcosted and orks aren't. Also don't ignore the fact I think the big shoota should be dropped in points - I just don't think it should be 1 or 2 points.

DakkaDakkaDakka plus Bad Moons trait (re-roll ones) is still worse than BS4 or BS5 with full re-rolls.

I mean the alternative would be to just curb DakkaDakkaDakka then and give orkz bf 4+ back.

It would atleast according to Xeno change nothing right lads?
(Hint, that would be probably the first time an ork army would run gunz over choppa)

Not Online!!! wrote:
(Hint, that would be probably the first time an ork army would run gunz over choppa)

We already are running guns over choppa and it's not the first time

Ork are pretty much the same army as marines, except we trade armor for extra punch in close combat.

But yeah, BS4+ on all orks would be insane, Dakka³ is probably the best solution possible for orks - it implement BS4.5 while still being orky random and fun.