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2019/08/07 09:55:17
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
Jidmah wrote: Considering how irrelevant another codex is to the health of ours, I don't think so.
Mixed reaction from me. For the most part it looks like most of the SM's chapter traits are similar (no surprise there) to Ork Kulture's but they get a bit more benefit from them.
Crimson fists: +1 WS in CC against any unit with 5 or more models....most units are 10+ so this is iffy but will likely be useful, also puts the CF player in a situation where they want to min/max to get as many small squads as possible. But here is the big part, all of their bolt weapons generate an extra HIT not shot on a 6+. So if they have 6 shots statistically they will generate 5 hits. this is basically just giving them 2+ to hit with bolt weapons without actually saying it. DX3 gives orks an extra SHOT not an extra hit.
Black Templars: They get Ere we go AND a 5+ FNP against Mortal wounds, not bad.
Imperial Fists: Ignores cover and hit rolls of 6 with bolt weapons generate 1 extra hit.
Raven Guard: -1 to hit when in terrain and gets cover when they are 12' or further away from the enemy....or basically almost the entire game. So this is Blood Axes on steroids. Blood Axes are 18' range not 12 to get a cover save and they get to charge OR shoot if they fell back. I'll take ravenguard every single day of the week thank you very much.
Salamanders: DeffSkullz +1. Can reroll 1 hit and 1 wound per phase basically and are immune armor loss from -1AP weapons.
Iron Hands: This is just SnakeBites +2. gives the entire army 6+ FNP AND Overwatch on 5s AND doubles the # of wounds on models with damage charts for the purpose of bracketing. So to reduce that Land Raider to its 2nd bracket now requires 50% more damage.
Smurfs are still smurfy nothing really changed for them, and white scars are just evil sunz that instead of extra movement get to charge even if they advanced. Ohh and they get no penalty to heavy weapons for moving.
But i do agree that this doesn't necessarily harm orkz. In my opinion though it does bring back the debate that Ork boyz should be 6ppm not 7. The only real buff they got in the codex was dakkax3 and the BFD Melta bomb per 10 orkz. Now that 2 SM factions have a similar ability i think going back to 6 makes sense.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But, the big thing in regards to Big shoota's discussion. 2 factions are now able to seriously out dakka a big shoota with a weapon that is 40% the price.
30 stormbolters (Common denominator) cost 60pts and put out 120shots of S4 at 24' range if they don't move. Those 120 shots will now generate 100 hits on average (not going to use buffings characters for this) so against T4 3+ saves that is 50 wounds and 17ish damage.
60pts worth of Big shoota's nets you 12 big shootas which put out 36shots which net you 14 hits on average which generate 10ish wounds and against a 3+ save that is 3.3ish damage.
In what worlds does that make sense? And the argument that T5+ makes the Big shoota better is false as well. Those Stormbolters are now significantly more powerful in every which way to a big shoota, and now the argument goes from 4pts for a Big shoota putting out 4 or 5 shots to a 3pt Big shoota that does 5 or 6 shots.
From my cursory knowledge of orks I'll say boys should not be 6ppm and should stay at 7ppm
My reasoning for this is:
A) the race to bottom is getting to be a problem
B) this still really only helps the greentide build.
Shouldn't players be advocating for point drops on other units for more diverse builds?
2019/08/07 10:55:45
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
Given that a boy with a big shoota slightly outperforms a regular shoota boy, per point, against anything up to and including T5 (which is what you'd expect to be shooting those things at), I think it's about ok tbh.
2019/08/07 11:42:52
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
Jidmah wrote: Considering how irrelevant another codex is to the health of ours, I don't think so.
Mixed reaction from me. For the most part it looks like most of the SM's chapter traits are similar (no surprise there) to Ork Kulture's but they get a bit more benefit from them.
Crimson fists: +1 WS in CC against any unit with 5 or more models....most units are 10+ so this is iffy but will likely be useful, also puts the CF player in a situation where they want to min/max to get as many small squads as possible. But here is the big part, all of their bolt weapons generate an extra HIT not shot on a 6+. So if they have 6 shots statistically they will generate 5 hits. this is basically just giving them 2+ to hit with bolt weapons without actually saying it. DX3 gives orks an extra SHOT not an extra hit.
Black Templars: They get Ere we go AND a 5+ FNP against Mortal wounds, not bad.
Imperial Fists: Ignores cover and hit rolls of 6 with bolt weapons generate 1 extra hit.
Raven Guard: -1 to hit when in terrain and gets cover when they are 12' or further away from the enemy....or basically almost the entire game. So this is Blood Axes on steroids. Blood Axes are 18' range not 12 to get a cover save and they get to charge OR shoot if they fell back. I'll take ravenguard every single day of the week thank you very much.
Salamanders: DeffSkullz +1. Can reroll 1 hit and 1 wound per phase basically and are immune armor loss from -1AP weapons.
Iron Hands: This is just SnakeBites +2. gives the entire army 6+ FNP AND Overwatch on 5s AND doubles the # of wounds on models with damage charts for the purpose of bracketing. So to reduce that Land Raider to its 2nd bracket now requires 50% more damage.
Smurfs are still smurfy nothing really changed for them, and white scars are just evil sunz that instead of extra movement get to charge even if they advanced. Ohh and they get no penalty to heavy weapons for moving.
But i do agree that this doesn't necessarily harm orkz. In my opinion though it does bring back the debate that Ork boyz should be 6ppm not 7. The only real buff they got in the codex was dakkax3 and the BFD Melta bomb per 10 orkz. Now that 2 SM factions have a similar ability i think going back to 6 makes sense.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But, the big thing in regards to Big shoota's discussion. 2 factions are now able to seriously out dakka a big shoota with a weapon that is 40% the price.
30 stormbolters (Common denominator) cost 60pts and put out 120shots of S4 at 24' range if they don't move. Those 120 shots will now generate 100 hits on average (not going to use buffings characters for this) so against T4 3+ saves that is 50 wounds and 17ish damage.
60pts worth of Big shoota's nets you 12 big shootas which put out 36shots which net you 14 hits on average which generate 10ish wounds and against a 3+ save that is 3.3ish damage.
In what worlds does that make sense? And the argument that T5+ makes the Big shoota better is false as well. Those Stormbolters are now significantly more powerful in every which way to a big shoota, and now the argument goes from 4pts for a Big shoota putting out 4 or 5 shots to a 3pt Big shoota that does 5 or 6 shots.
From my cursory knowledge of orks I'll say boys should not be 6ppm and should stay at 7ppm
My reasoning for this is:
A) the race to bottom is getting to be a problem
B) this still really only helps the greentide build.
Shouldn't players be advocating for point drops on other units for more diverse builds?
I compare and ork to say a guardsman and by comparison they should be 6 points, but compared to a tac marine they are undercosted. compared to intersessors they are maybe slightly overcosted but not enough to knock em down to 6 ppm.
honestly I think part of the problem on costing this stuff is still the point per model being exactly set. An ork is probably worth ~6.5 points. woudl eb great if instead of giving the option to add a single ork you got something along the lines of 10 ork boys 65 points. add 5 orks for 33 points and add 10 orks for 65 to the mob. but GW insists on us being able to add individual models so its unlikely to happen.
on the green tide though really it is not taking tournament wins. its not super powerful unless your opponent cam armed for imperial knight mono list. at 6+ saes on a 4T model the orks still have to move tons of slow bodies up the table. concentrate on the front squads and they rarely get very far.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/07 11:44:54
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2019/08/07 12:16:40
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
To be fair, a year ago Ork Boyz WERE 6ppm and it wasn't like they were sweeping any tournaments. Course this was before Kultur and Dakkax3, but I still think 6ppm Boyz would be appropriately priced, even now. Boyz in any kind of saturation to be worth taking aren't gonna be able to hide out of LOS, nor benefit from Cover, so what you got are models that cost nearly twice what Guardsmen do, but actually go down easier. All that good CC presence don't do you a lot of good if they die before they get to krumping.
2019/08/07 12:31:47
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
Xenomancers wrote: I was speaking about the fact orks are BS 5. It is mitigated by dakka dakka bringing them closer to bs 4+ but also crucially doubling weapon potential. Their weapons should be costed like they are BS 4 is what I was saying. Dakka Dakka also isn't an army trait - it is a free ability that most orks get - it also effects really powerful weapons where imperial firsts only effects bolt weapons. Also I am in agreement with you that the new space marine traits are over the top. A lot of ork ones are too. Freebootas and evilsuns are quite good traits. It's also pretty fair to say space marines are overcosted and orks aren't. Also don't ignore the fact I think the big shoota should be dropped in points - I just don't think it should be 1 or 2 points.
DakkaDakkaDakka plus Bad Moons trait (re-roll ones) is still worse than BS4 or BS5 with full re-rolls.
I mean the alternative would be to just curb DakkaDakkaDakka then and give orkz bf 4+ back.
It would atleast according to Xeno change nothing right lads?
(Hint, that would be probably the first time an ork army would run gunz over choppa)
To be honest they already have that. It's called freebootas.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/08/07 12:33:20
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
Xenomancers wrote: I was speaking about the fact orks are BS 5. It is mitigated by dakka dakka bringing them closer to bs 4+ but also crucially doubling weapon potential. Their weapons should be costed like they are BS 4 is what I was saying. Dakka Dakka also isn't an army trait - it is a free ability that most orks get - it also effects really powerful weapons where imperial firsts only effects bolt weapons. Also I am in agreement with you that the new space marine traits are over the top. A lot of ork ones are too. Freebootas and evilsuns are quite good traits. It's also pretty fair to say space marines are overcosted and orks aren't. Also don't ignore the fact I think the big shoota should be dropped in points - I just don't think it should be 1 or 2 points.
DakkaDakkaDakka plus Bad Moons trait (re-roll ones) is still worse than BS4 or BS5 with full re-rolls.
I mean the alternative would be to just curb DakkaDakkaDakka then and give orkz bf 4+ back.
It would atleast according to Xeno change nothing right lads?
(Hint, that would be probably the first time an ork army would run gunz over choppa)
To be honest they already have that. It's called freebootas.
Then why are you complaining?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/08/07 13:09:55
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
Xenomancers wrote: I was speaking about the fact orks are BS 5. It is mitigated by dakka dakka bringing them closer to bs 4+ but also crucially doubling weapon potential. Their weapons should be costed like they are BS 4 is what I was saying. Dakka Dakka also isn't an army trait - it is a free ability that most orks get - it also effects really powerful weapons where imperial firsts only effects bolt weapons. Also I am in agreement with you that the new space marine traits are over the top. A lot of ork ones are too. Freebootas and evilsuns are quite good traits. It's also pretty fair to say space marines are overcosted and orks aren't. Also don't ignore the fact I think the big shoota should be dropped in points - I just don't think it should be 1 or 2 points.
DakkaDakkaDakka plus Bad Moons trait (re-roll ones) is still worse than BS4 or BS5 with full re-rolls.
I mean the alternative would be to just curb DakkaDakkaDakka then and give orkz bf 4+ back.
It would atleast according to Xeno change nothing right lads?
(Hint, that would be probably the first time an ork army would run gunz over choppa)
To be honest they already have that. It's called freebootas.
Then why are you complaining?
Not complaining my friend. I agree the BS is overcosted - but so is basically every marine weapon except a storm bolter. LOL.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/08/07 13:10:53
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
Xenomancers wrote: I was speaking about the fact orks are BS 5. It is mitigated by dakka dakka bringing them closer to bs 4+ but also crucially doubling weapon potential. Their weapons should be costed like they are BS 4 is what I was saying. Dakka Dakka also isn't an army trait - it is a free ability that most orks get - it also effects really powerful weapons where imperial firsts only effects bolt weapons. Also I am in agreement with you that the new space marine traits are over the top. A lot of ork ones are too. Freebootas and evilsuns are quite good traits. It's also pretty fair to say space marines are overcosted and orks aren't. Also don't ignore the fact I think the big shoota should be dropped in points - I just don't think it should be 1 or 2 points.
DakkaDakkaDakka plus Bad Moons trait (re-roll ones) is still worse than BS4 or BS5 with full re-rolls.
I mean the alternative would be to just curb DakkaDakkaDakka then and give orkz bf 4+ back.
It would atleast according to Xeno change nothing right lads?
(Hint, that would be probably the first time an ork army would run gunz over choppa)
To be honest they already have that. It's called freebootas.
Then why are you complaining?
Not complaining my friend. I agree the BS is overcosted - but so is basically every marine weapon except a storm bolter. LOL.
Doubt that with the new traits.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2019/08/07 13:16:45
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
Xenomancers wrote: I was speaking about the fact orks are BS 5. It is mitigated by dakka dakka bringing them closer to bs 4+ but also crucially doubling weapon potential. Their weapons should be costed like they are BS 4 is what I was saying. Dakka Dakka also isn't an army trait - it is a free ability that most orks get - it also effects really powerful weapons where imperial firsts only effects bolt weapons. Also I am in agreement with you that the new space marine traits are over the top. A lot of ork ones are too. Freebootas and evilsuns are quite good traits. It's also pretty fair to say space marines are overcosted and orks aren't. Also don't ignore the fact I think the big shoota should be dropped in points - I just don't think it should be 1 or 2 points.
DakkaDakkaDakka plus Bad Moons trait (re-roll ones) is still worse than BS4 or BS5 with full re-rolls.
I mean the alternative would be to just curb DakkaDakkaDakka then and give orkz bf 4+ back.
It would atleast according to Xeno change nothing right lads?
(Hint, that would be probably the first time an ork army would run gunz over choppa)
To be honest they already have that. It's called freebootas.
Then why are you complaining?
Not complaining my friend. I agree the BS is overcosted - but so is basically every marine weapon except a storm bolter. LOL.
Doubt that with the new traits.
Those traits only effect bolters for the most part. It's true though. The power creep is real. Marines are basically a 9th eddition codex now. Welcome to 9th eddition.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/08/07 14:11:30
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
Just FYI, Freebooterz is only effective against armies that take multiple MSUs of easy to kill units. Good luck proccing that +1 against Knights or any mechanized list
2019/08/07 15:40:41
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
It’s been a long while since I posted on here but I’ve been checking in every now and again. I’ve seen this thread develop from its early stages and couldn’t resist weighing in.
As it stands I wouldn’t bother taking Big Shootas on certain units if they cost nothing, 0 points. This is the case particularly for Boyz squads but the same holds true for a few other units that can take them. The quantities we can take and their actual damage output is so low they aren’t worth rolling for.
In competitive games time is against us as it is due to our general horde nature and the fact that events must have an end time. I would genuinely not bother taking them in Boyz squads if they cost 0 points because I’d rather not lose the time for the few shots to potentially cause 1 or 2 saved wounds. I have greater and more important things to spend my time on.
The same holds true for some of the buggies with their bonkers weapon load outs of 3 or 4 different ranged weapons. I don’t think I’ve ever bothered shooting the Grot blastas outside of a friendly match/for funzies. Big Shootas are like Grot Blastas in that respect - they literally aren’t worth the time investment of rolling the dice. So what’s their approximate points value for an infantry unit? 0. Without changes the Big Shoota will never be taken. I’d like -AP ideally. We have enough no AP volume of attacks/shots weapons.
2019/08/07 17:28:26
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
Piggy-backing on that, I think they'd be much more likely to be taken if every Boy could swap their Shoota for one. An extra 30 shots (over the normal Shoota) is far more likely to make an impact than an extra 3 (for 3 Big Shootas in a Mob).
2019/08/08 00:22:09
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
Eonfuzz wrote: Now that marines are getting free, and better, Dakka Dakka Dakka, as well as an Ork Attack statline - I think this question needs to re-surface again.
Now it looks like stormbolters are AP -1 too.
2019/08/08 00:31:39
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
Eonfuzz wrote: Now that marines are getting free, and better, Dakka Dakka Dakka, as well as an Ork Attack statline - I think this question needs to re-surface again.
Now it looks like stormbolters are AP -1 too.
It does indeed. Silly. I agree.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2019/08/08 01:06:23
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
From my cursory knowledge of orks I'll say boys should not be 6ppm and should stay at 7ppm
My reasoning for this is:
A) the race to bottom is getting to be a problem
B) this still really only helps the greentide build.
Shouldn't players be advocating for point drops on other units for more diverse builds?
Yes they should, but at the moment I am talking about Big Shootas and merely brought in the boyz dropping to 6ppm again due to the massive buffs Speese Mehreens are getting.
Also, a point drop for boyz does not just benefit green tide builds, it also benefits basically all ork builds because atm our choices are Expensive boyz which require a lot of buffs to make them useful (Weirdboyz, warbosses etc.) OR cheap grot units which are functionally useless except to stop bullets and sit on an objective. At the moment most competitive lists are filling out battalions with min squads of 10 grots because why spend 210pts on Boyz when you can get more then 2 full battalions worth of grotz for cheaper then it takes to get 1 troop choice of boyz. And boyz have to be taken in 30 blobs because their big attack bonus is situational and stops when they drop below 20 models.
My fun list I took a few days ago took a bunch of mobz of boyz with big shootas, if they were 6ppm like they were in every edition and this edition until we got our codex then I would have saved 90pts. Hell, with all the buffs Marines are getting and how ridiculously good IG are compared to boyz it wouldn't be that much of a stretch to argue 5ppm boyz.
But, getting back on topic. The Space Marines now have 2pt Stormbolters which fire 4 shots when on Terminators/bikes/dreadz and 4 shots on infantry when they stand still or are within half range AND they apparently have AP-1. With that in mind I think a Big shoota should be a 3pt weapon and double its number of shots. Give each big shoota 6 shots and suddenly its no longer a useless option, and on my buggies, specifically my scrapjets, that now gives them 24 S5 shots each, which sounds like a lot but remember 5+ to hit.
Eonfuzz wrote: Now that marines are getting free, and better, Dakka Dakka Dakka, as well as an Ork Attack statline - I think this question needs to re-surface again.
Now it looks like stormbolters are AP -1 too.
On turn 2 at the cost of heavy weapons gaining ap. Not doing big shoota any favors though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/08 01:09:39
2019/08/08 13:04:50
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
You probably meant deffgunz. Dakka guns are the guns on our bikes.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2019/08/08 13:58:54
Subject: What is the Fair price for an Ork Big Shoota in 8th.
7000 
