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Let's use a system similar to Apoc but isn't RNG dependent.

Strategy Rating
When you build a Battle-forged army, it will have a Strategy Rating. The Strategy Rating of an army is equal to its total Power Level, divided by 5, rounding down. For example, if your army has a total power level of 97, your Strategy Rating is 19. If you are playing a matched play game, your army instead has a Strategy Rating equal to the agreed points limit of the game, divided by 100, rounding down, regardless of how many points are actually spent on units or Reinforcement Points. For example, if the agreed points limit for your army in a matched play game is 1750 points, then your army has a Strategy Rating of 17.

Battalions
In a matched play game, if the combined points value of all units with the Troops battlefield role in a Battalion detachment is greater than or equal to 250 points, the Strategy Rating of that army is increased by 3 for each Battalion that this is the case.

Stratagems
Each army has access to Stratagems. Stratagems have two components, a Command Cost and an Effect.

The Command Cost of a Stratagem represents how powerful the Stratagem is. In general, more powerful Stratagem will have a higher Command Cost. When recording your Army Roster, you can include any number of Stratagems so long as the combined Command Cost of every Stratagem taken (including duplicates) does not exceed the Strategy Rating for your army.

The Effect of a Stratagem, including when to use it, is explained in full in the Stratagem itself.

Using Stratagems
When mustering your army and recording its army roster, you must include the names of the Stratagems you are including in your army. Each instance of a Stratagem, unless otherwise stated, may only be used once per battle. This means if you think you are going to use a Stratagem more than once in a battle, you must include that Stratagem multiple times on your army roster, with each copy's Command Cost counting towards the Maximum Stratagem Rating of your army. Unless otherwise specified, each Stratagem may only be included on your army roster a maximum of three times. Some Stratagems will indicate they may only be included in your army a maximum of one or two times. If this is the case, then you cannot include that Stratagem more than the number of times permitted by the Stratagem.

Stratagems may be used whenever the Stratagem indicates it may be used. There is no limit to the amount of Stratagems that can be used, nor any restriction on using multiple copies of the same Stratagem, but keep in mind that each instance of a Stratagem, unless otherwise stated, may only be used once per battle and the other rules of the game still apply (e.g. you cannot re-roll a dice more than once).

Generic Stratagems
The following Stratagems can be used by Battle-forged army without needing to include them on their army roster. Before using these Generic Stratagems, you must first "discard" stratagems on your army roster with Command Cost equal to or greater than the Command Cost of the desired Generic Stratagem. To discard a stratagem means to mark the stratagem as used, and cannot be re-used that battle for any reason or for any purpose. Each use beyond the first use of a Generic Stratagem in a phase increases the Command Cost of the Generic Stratagem by 1. For example, the first use of the Command Re-Roll stratagem in a phase requires the discarding of 1 Command Cost of Stratagems. The second use requires the discarding of 2 Command Cost of Stratagems, and so on.

Command Re-Roll (1CC): This Stratagem can be used in any phase. You can re-roll any single dice.

Counter-Offensive (2CC): This Stratagem can be used right after an enemy unit that charged has fought. Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next.

Insane Bravery (1CC): This Stratagem can be used in the Morale phase. You can automatically pass a single Morale test (this Stratagem must be used before taking the test).

Controlled Fire (2CC): This Stratagem can be used in the Shooting phase. Select a friendly unit. Until the end of the phase, any weapons that roll D6s to determine the number of attacks they will make, and/or roll D6s to determine how much damage they inflict instead roll 2D3 for each D6 that would be rolled instead. For example, if a weapon would inflict 2D6 damage, it instead inflicts 4D3 damage. If it would make D6 attacks, it instead makes 2D3 attacks.

Focused Charge (2CC): This Stratagem can be used in the Charge phase. Select a friendly unit. Until the end of the phase, if that unit would roll 2D6 to determine their charge distance, that unit instead rolls 5D3 when determining their charge distance.

Tactical Genius! (1CC): You can use this stratagem at any time. You may discard any number of stratagems on your army roster. If you do, you can add any Stratagem your army could have included on its army roster at the start of the battle to your army roster that is equal to or less than the combined Command Cost of the discarded Stratagems. This Stratagem may only be used once per player per Battle Round.

This system ends the "CP Farming" abuse caused by cheap Imperial Guard Battalions and causes players to plan ahead as to what stratagems they will want to use, and also caps the use of stratagems to help (but not entirely eliminate) just using the "best" ones over and over again. The limit of three times could be lowered to two if needs be.

So your suggestion is to "fix" the problem of CP farms by giving elite armies the full CP pool they'd have with a farm but without even having to spend points on it? No thanks.

Strategy Rating
When you build a Battle-forged army, it will have a Strategy Rating. The Strategy Rating of an army is equal to its total Power Level, divided by 5, rounding down. For example, if your army has a total power level of 97, your Strategy Rating is 19. If you are playing a matched play game, your army instead has a Strategy Rating equal to the agreed points limit of the game, divided by 100, rounding down, regardless of how many points are actually spent on units or Reinforcement Points. For example, if the agreed points limit for your army in a matched play game is 1750 points, then your army has a Strategy Rating of 17.

That seems like a lot, would Stratagems cost 2 or 3 times as much CC as CP? It could work, that would allow for a lot more granularity between 1-12 CP rather than 1-4 CP.

Battalions
In a matched play game, if the combined points value of all units with the Troops battlefield role in a Battalion detachment is greater than or equal to 250 points, the Strategy Rating of that army is increased by 3 for each Battalion that this is the case.

This seems like a very small incentive to take Troops. The difference between a single Vanguard Detachment and three Battalions is currently 4 vs 18 CP. Your difference would be 20 vs 29 CC. I think the right balance would be 6 CP vs 14 CP. Converted into CC that'd be somewhere around 20 vs 47 or 7-9 CC/Battalion and 10-15 for Brigades. I fear we'd see too many no-Troops list. I get that a number of people are whining about Battalions, but I also feel like there was more whining about lists that brought none or almost none.

With the current 3 CC/Battalion there is no reason to require people to take at least 250 pts to get the bonus since it's so tiny. I have to admit that I feel like Troops should be a core part of the game, like they have been since forever. I don't think ObSec is a big deal when just having more models is enough to control an objective, a vehicle won't take away your objective whether you have 5 Lychguard or 10 Immortals and if your opponent is outnumbering you with something that isn't Troops, those Troops are toast regardless.

Using Stratagems
When mustering your army and recording its army roster, you must include the names of the Stratagems you are including in your army. Each instance of a Stratagem, unless otherwise stated, may only be used once per battle. This means if you think you are going to use a Stratagem more than once in a battle, you must include that Stratagem multiple times on your army roster, with each copy's Command Cost counting towards the Maximum Stratagem Value of your army. Unless otherwise specified, each Stratagem may only be included on your army roster a maximum of three times. Some Stratagems will indicate they may only be included in your army a maximum of one or two times. If this is the case, then you cannot include that Stratagem more than the number of times permitted by the Stratagem.

Stratagems may be used whenever the Stratagem indicates it may be used. There is no limit to the amount of Stratagems that can be used, nor any restriction on using multiple copies of the same Stratagem, but keep in mind that each instance of a Stratagem, unless otherwise stated, may only be used once per battle and the other rules of the game still apply (e.g. you cannot re-roll a dice more than once).

I like this idea, particularly for the purpose of limiting gotcha Stratagems since you'll have an easier time reading through your opponent's Stratagems since they'll have a limited pool instead of 25-100 Stratagems from up to 6 sources.

Generic Stratagems
The following Stratagems can be used by Battle-forged army without needing to include them on their army roster. Before using these Generic Stratagems, you must first "discard" stratagems on your army roster with Command Cost equal to or greater than the Command Cost of the desired Generic Stratagem. To discard a stratagem means to mark the stratagem as used, and cannot be re-used that battle for any reason or for any purpose. Each use beyond the first use of a Generic Stratagem in a phase increases the Command Cost of the Generic Stratagem by 1. For example, the first use of the Command Re-Roll stratagem in a phase requires the discarding of 1 Command Cost of Stratagems. The second use requires the discarding of 2 Command Cost of Stratagems, and so on.

I don't get the purpose of these? To get rid of dead Stratagems? I feel like it'd be more fair to have to include these Stratagems as part of your pool of Stratagems. I really don't want to have to pay 4 or 5 CC/re-roll when I'm having a bad game. If you are afraid of having dead Stratagems you can include the Tactical Genius! Stratagem in your list of Stratagems. Punishing people more and more as they re-roll because they are having bad luck isn't something I like.

Er. you complain about GW bad rules writing, and proof reading ability all the time, then post this...

In your first paragraph, you give an army a "Strategy Rating", and then in the 4th section you talk about a "Stratagem Value" which is explained nowhere. Which by BCB-RAW makes your rules impossible to use, as there is no way to discern how many Stratagems I may use/take.


Though looking at what you probably intended, not a bad attempt to rid us of the CP farm, probably a bit over complicated though.

 Kcalehc wrote:
Er. you complain about GW bad rules writing, and proof reading ability all the time, then post this...

In your first paragraph, you give an army a "Strategy Rating", and then in the 4th section you talk about a "Stratagem Value" which is explained nowhere. Which by BCB-RAW makes your rules impossible to use, as there is no way to discern how many Stratagems I may use/take.


Though looking at what you probably intended, not a bad attempt to rid us of the CP farm, probably a bit over complicated though.

Because I changed the name half-way though, while writing it at 3am after being awake for ~36 hours. Also, this is an internet forum post, not something I charged you £50 for nor get a salary to do. Unlike GW, I throw things out for Linus's Law to take effect. If you're just going to snark, I'd rather you just ignored me and move on. Or Paypal me the £50 and then you get to complain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Peregrine wrote:So your suggestion is to "fix" the problem of CP farms by giving elite armies the full CP pool they'd have with a farm but without even having to spend points on it? No thanks.

Yeah, all those elite armies that are totally meta. /s The point is to end the taking of the Loyal 32. Will some stratagems need to be re-costed? Sure. Some of the extremely powerful stratagems like Vect or Rotate Ion Shields might be limited to once or twice per game, or upped in cost. If Rotate Ion Shields were 4CC, then taking 3 would be over half your total allotment for the game.

vict0988 wrote:I don't get the purpose of these? To get rid of dead Stratagems? I feel like it'd be more fair to have to include these Stratagems as part of your pool of Stratagems. I really don't want to have to pay 4 or 5 CC/re-roll when I'm having a bad game. If you are afraid of having dead Stratagems you can include the Tactical Genius! Stratagem in your list of Stratagems. Punishing people more and more as they re-roll because they are having bad luck isn't something I like.

It's because there is a limit of 3 copies of each stratagem, and restricting the Command Re-roll to 3 per game seems overly harsh. The "punishment" is only for the phase, it prevents you spamming the Command Re-roll in a phase (unlike now where it's one use only, this is like the Smite diminishing returns rule).

I like the heavier difference between a Black Guardian warhost's CP and a Windrider warhost's CP in the current rules than under the proposed.

 Peregrine wrote:
So your suggestion is to "fix" the problem of CP farms by giving elite armies the full CP pool they'd have with a farm but without even having to spend points on it? No thanks.

It would be fine if certain armies stratagems weren't just better than others. it's already been demonstrated countless times this isn't based on an armies "eliteness" it is based on random chance whether your army has good or bad stratagems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@BCB Rotate ions is nothing compared to the most powerful stratagems. ESP now that it is capped at 4++.

Strats that let you shoot/fight twice are the most busted.

I've already devised a system which works a lot like this but is better IMO. All armies start with the same CP 15 at 2k points (first brigade/battalion is free(some exceptions like knight lance and multiple DE patrols are free)) and additional detachments/allies/superheavy aux cost you CP to purchase.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
So your suggestion is to "fix" the problem of CP farms by giving elite armies the full CP pool they'd have with a farm but without even having to spend points on it? No thanks.

It would be fine if certain armies stratagems weren't just better than others. it's already been demonstrated countless times this isn't based on an armies "eliteness" it is based on random chance whether your army has good or bad stratagems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@BCB Rotate ions is nothing compared to the most powerful stratagems. ESP now that it is capped at 4++.

Strats that let you shoot/fight twice are the most busted.

I've already devised a system which works a lot like this but is better IMO. All armies start with the same CP 15 at 2k points (first brigade/battalion is free(some exceptions like knight lance and multiple DE patrols are free)) and additional detachments/allies/superheavy aux cost you CP to purchase.

Everything that let's you shoot twice really should be 1-2 CP more expensive than it currently is. They need to set a value to a CP and re-balance the most broken Stratagems, while at the same time balancing factions so that any units that rely on OP Stratagems to be viable or at least trash don't suddenly become unviable or absolute trash because their crutch Stratagems were nerfed. Something like the Necron Mephrit Stratagem that lets you shoot 17% more shots with a unit for 1 CP is a total joke when viewed in comparisson to Stratagems that let you shoot 100% more and let's you choose how to split the second half of your firepower after firing the first half. Alternatively they need some serious restrictions, like the CSM Fire Frenzy Stratagem for Helbrutes that also limits the unit to shooting at the closest unit, now that is only 1 CP. But for something like the Nid and Ork shoot twice Stratagems it'd be totally fair to put the same restriction of only shooting at the closest enemy unit on them. No Stratagems should stack with any other Stratagems, not even a little bit. Use a CP re-roll for your Lootas when they Dakka Dakka Dakka, fair enough, but CP re-roll applying to both rounds of shooting, stacking with a squad of 25, stacking with Dakka Dakka, stacking with shoot twice is not okay. Shoot twice not stacking with the CP re-roll and Lootas never being able to mob up is good, but they should go the extra mile and make it so Dakka Dakka and shoot twice don't stack as well IMO. This is why I suggested Stratagems costing 2-3 times more, it leaves you a lot of space to choose exactly how OP certain Stratagems are and also lets you keep the worst Stratagems at 1 CP.

I don't really think your system does much of what BCB wants to do, the nerf to Troops is at best half the change, starting with 20 CP and going up from there is just crazy, so perhabs you could forget about the Strategy rating part of BCB's suggestion and either use the current, original or Xenomancer's way of generating CP and just pay for Stratagems while building your list. It does raise a question of how CP regen abilities would work though, would you need to pay the 1 CP for the new orders Stratagem when you wanted to cash in on them?

 vict0988 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
So your suggestion is to "fix" the problem of CP farms by giving elite armies the full CP pool they'd have with a farm but without even having to spend points on it? No thanks.

It would be fine if certain armies stratagems weren't just better than others. it's already been demonstrated countless times this isn't based on an armies "eliteness" it is based on random chance whether your army has good or bad stratagems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@BCB Rotate ions is nothing compared to the most powerful stratagems. ESP now that it is capped at 4++.

Strats that let you shoot/fight twice are the most busted.

I've already devised a system which works a lot like this but is better IMO. All armies start with the same CP 15 at 2k points (first brigade/battalion is free(some exceptions like knight lance and multiple DE patrols are free)) and additional detachments/allies/superheavy aux cost you CP to purchase.

Everything that let's you shoot twice really should be 1-2 CP more expensive than it currently is. They need to set a value to a CP and re-balance the most broken Stratagems, while at the same time balancing factions so that any units that rely on OP Stratagems to be viable or at least trash don't suddenly become unviable or absolute trash because their crutch Stratagems were nerfed. Something like the Necron Mephrit Stratagem that lets you shoot 17% more shots with a unit for 1 CP is a total joke when viewed in comparisson to Stratagems that let you shoot 100% more and let's you choose how to split the second half of your firepower after firing the first half. Alternatively they need some serious restrictions, like the CSM Fire Frenzy Stratagem for Helbrutes that also limits the unit to shooting at the closest unit, now that is only 1 CP. But for something like the Nid and Ork shoot twice Stratagems it'd be totally fair to put the same restriction of only shooting at the closest enemy unit on them. No Stratagems should stack with any other Stratagems, not even a little bit. Use a CP re-roll for your Lootas when they Dakka Dakka Dakka, fair enough, but CP re-roll applying to both rounds of shooting, stacking with a squad of 25, stacking with Dakka Dakka, stacking with shoot twice is not okay. Shoot twice not stacking with the CP re-roll and Lootas never being able to mob up is good, but they should go the extra mile and make it so Dakka Dakka and shoot twice don't stack as well IMO. This is why I suggested Stratagems costing 2-3 times more, it leaves you a lot of space to choose exactly how OP certain Stratagems are and also lets you keep the worst Stratagems at 1 CP.

I don't really think your system does much of what BCB wants to do, the nerf to Troops is at best half the change, starting with 20 CP and going up from there is just crazy, so perhabs you could forget about the Strategy rating part of BCB's suggestion and either use the current, original or Xenomancer's way of generating CP and just pay for Stratagems while building your list. It does raise a question of how CP regen abilities would work though, would you need to pay the 1 CP for the new orders Stratagem when you wanted to cash in on them?

Totally on point in your response . In regards to the system I suggest it is more or less a return to a FOC system like we had in 5th ed - however with the caveat that you can get more slots but it costs you CP. In the end - it doesn't nerf troops ether because if you want a brigade to get the most CP and slots you gotta bring 6 troops. Plus every non battalion/brigade/lance/DE patrol/ect is going to cost you CP as well. So I see it as the best of both worlds. Some people like to bring armies of just elite units and they will be allowed to do that - they will just start with less CP. Some people like to bring allies - they can - it now just costs you CP. Plus now - 35 year old CC isn't producing more CP than a custodian general. It just makes sense to me.

@BCB: Some thoughts in no particular order:

* I'm a little confused about how many times you can actually take/use a stratagem. You say that, by default, I can take the same strat 3 times, but you also say that by default I can only use that strat 1 time? So unless the strat expressly states it's reusable, what's the point of taking it more than once? Just to fuel the generic strats?

* Why limit the bonus CP to batallion detachments? You're already tying the bonus CP to the points cost of the troops. Does it really matter whether I'm taking 250 points worth of troops in a batallion as opposed to a spearhead, for instance?

* This is kind of its own discussion, but I'm not really a fan of tying CP generation to a troop tax. Troops should stand on their own merits. If they don't, they ought to be redesigned or given access to troops-only strats or otherwise buffed to give players a reason to use them as the backbone of an army.

Genestealers are probably a lot more competitive than pyrovores. Do we really need to give bonus CP to the genestealer-heavy army even though it's already probably stronger than the pyrovore-themed army? Does Death Wing really need to be punished even further for fielding terminators instead of scouts?

* I worry that this system will turn rarely-used strats into never-taken strats. Crucible of Malediction, for instance, is very situational. When the situation arises that you do want to use it, it's just okay. You're glad you had it in your back pocket. But if taking Crucible of Malediction means NOT taking Agents of Vect or Lightning Fast Reactions, you'll just stop taking Crucible'. Basically, it makes stratagems "monobuild", which is a weird term to use given that you don't really "build" strats in the current rules.

* I'm a little confused about how many times you can actually take/use a stratagem. You say that, by default, I can take the same strat 3 times, but you also say that by default I can only use that strat 1 time? So unless the strat expressly states it's reusable, what's the point of taking it more than once? Just to fuel the generic strats?

You can take each strat up to 3 times, and each instance of those strats can be used once. If I take, for example, three copies of "Honour the Chapter", I can use each copy once.

* Why limit the bonus CP to batallion detachments? You're already tying the bonus CP to the points cost of the troops. Does it really matter whether I'm taking 250 points worth of troops in a batallion as opposed to a spearhead, for instance?

To encourage taking multiple Troop units.

* This is kind of its own discussion, but I'm not really a fan of tying CP generation to a troop tax. Troops should stand on their own merits. If they don't, they ought to be redesigned or given access to troops-only strats or otherwise buffed to give players a reason to use them as the backbone of an army.

Genestealers are probably a lot more competitive than pyrovores. Do we really need to give bonus CP to the genestealer-heavy army even though it's already probably stronger than the pyrovore-themed army? Does Death Wing really need to be punished even further for fielding terminators instead of scouts?

Troops helping with stratagems is part of the benefit of being Troops. Should some units like Tactical Marines or Tyranid Warriors be better? Sure.

* I worry that this system will turn rarely-used strats into never-taken strats. Crucible of Malediction, for instance, is very situational. When the situation arises that you do want to use it, it's just okay. You're glad you had it in your back pocket. But if taking Crucible of Malediction means NOT taking Agents of Vect or Lightning Fast Reactions, you'll just stop taking Crucible'. Basically, it makes stratagems "monobuild", which is a weird term to use given that you don't really "build" strats in the current rules.

That is a fair point, and it would require some re-writing. Consolidating weaker stratagems into single multi-effect stratagems ala Skryerskull perhaps?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

* I'm a little confused about how many times you can actually take/use a stratagem. You say that, by default, I can take the same strat 3 times, but you also say that by default I can only use that strat 1 time? So unless the strat expressly states it's reusable, what's the point of taking it more than once? Just to fuel the generic strats?

You can take each strat up to 3 times, and each instance of those strats can be used once. If I take, for example, three copies of "Honour the Chapter", I can use each copy once.

I see. Is the following just a typo then?
There is no limit to the amount of Stratagems that can be used, nor any restriction on using multiple copies of the same Stratagem, but keep in mind that each instance of a Stratagem, unless otherwise stated, may only be used once per battle and the other rules of the game still apply (e.g. you cannot re-roll a dice more than once).

* Why limit the bonus CP to batallion detachments? You're already tying the bonus CP to the points cost of the troops. Does it really matter whether I'm taking 250 points worth of troops in a batallion as opposed to a spearhead, for instance?

To encourage taking multiple Troop units.

What do you feel is desirable about encouraging people to take multiple units rather than just more models? If I want to take 30 man squads of guardsmen instead of 10 or 10 man squads of marines instead of 5, how is the game improved by making the larger squads less desirable? Large squad or small, I'm paying the troop tax either way. Encouraging me to break the tax up into MSU just asymmetrically benefits MSU units over units that can perform better as a horde. Ork boy blobs, for instance, can benefit from being in large squads rather than small ones.

* This is kind of its own discussion, but I'm not really a fan of tying CP generation to a troop tax. Troops should stand on their own merits. If they don't, they ought to be redesigned or given access to troops-only strats or otherwise buffed to give players a reason to use them as the backbone of an army.

Genestealers are probably a lot more competitive than pyrovores. Do we really need to give bonus CP to the genestealer-heavy army even though it's already probably stronger than the pyrovore-themed army? Does Death Wing really need to be punished even further for fielding terminators instead of scouts?

Troops helping with stratagems is part of the benefit of being Troops. Should some units like Tactical Marines or Tyranid Warriors be better? Sure.

We might just have to agree to disagree here. Baking CP generation into the points cost of a troop model seems problematic to me. It basically just punishes people for playing armies that emphasize non-troop units regardless of how powerful or fluffy those units are. Saim-Hann is a great example of this. Until recently, windriders were a troop choice. This was fluffy for Saim-Hann and gave eldar a unique-feeling army build. Then they decided windriders weren't appropriate as troops (mostly because they powered them up too much in 7th), and suddenly Saim-Hann players are being punished for collecting fluffy armies even though windriders are good-but-not-amazing this edition. Meanwhile, some non-troops are significantly less useful than troops (looking at genestealers versus pyrovores again).

So circling back, what is and isn't a troop is kind of arbitrary and fails to account for both fluff and usefulness in-game. Attaching CP generation to this arbitrary classification, therefor, just creates opportunities for fluff and balance problems that don't need to exist. If someone wants to field a bunch of jetbikes or pyrovores because it suits their fluff, and if it doesn't allow them to build lists that are gamebreakingly powerful, then why punish them for liking certain units?

* I worry that this system will turn rarely-used strats into never-taken strats. Crucible of Malediction, for instance, is very situational. When the situation arises that you do want to use it, it's just okay. You're glad you had it in your back pocket. But if taking Crucible of Malediction means NOT taking Agents of Vect or Lightning Fast Reactions, you'll just stop taking Crucible'. Basically, it makes stratagems "monobuild", which is a weird term to use given that you don't really "build" strats in the current rules.

That is a fair point, and it would require some re-writing. Consolidating weaker stratagems into single multi-effect stratagems ala Skryerskull perhaps?

I would strongly recommend that any Stratagem rewrite take its cues from the Kill Team version, where you have fewer resources but generate them every turn, rather than starting with a finite pool that you deplete over time.

It encourages more dynamic use of resources and less hoarding for a big combo blow-out, and also slightly lessens the already-overwhelming impact of winning the first turn.

RevlidRas wrote:
I would strongly recommend that any Stratagem rewrite take its cues from the Kill Team version, where you have fewer resources but generate them every turn, rather than starting with a finite pool that you deplete over time.

It encourages more dynamic use of resources and less hoarding for a big combo blow-out, and also slightly lessens the already-overwhelming impact of winning the first turn.

I generally agree, but pregame strats do complicate things a bit. I don't think it's unreasonable for me to want to deepstrike a bunch of aeldari in through various webway strats, for instance, but then that implies that I have 3-9 CP to spend pregame anyway. And that's without taking into account things like the Great Harlie/Chapter master strats, extra relic strats, etc.

Although, and this is a topic for its own thread, I do feel that many relic weapons and "weapon strats" should probably just be purchasable wargear.

Wyldhunt wrote:

RevlidRas wrote:
I would strongly recommend that any Stratagem rewrite take its cues from the Kill Team version, where you have fewer resources but generate them every turn, rather than starting with a finite pool that you deplete over time.

It encourages more dynamic use of resources and less hoarding for a big combo blow-out, and also slightly lessens the already-overwhelming impact of winning the first turn.

I generally agree, but pregame strats do complicate things a bit. I don't think it's unreasonable for me to want to deepstrike a bunch of aeldari in through various webway strats, for instance, but then that implies that I have 3-9 CP to spend pregame anyway. And that's without taking into account things like the Great Harlie/Chapter master strats, extra relic strats, etc.

Although, and this is a topic for its own thread, I do feel that many relic weapons and "weapon strats" should probably just be purchasable wargear.

Easy enough to fix. Your first turn resources are generated pre game and can be spent pre game on having those things instead of having those resources being available during your first turn.

Another thought - what about ramming?

In 40k the act of ramming was removed, replaced by the tanks rolling gently up to one another and nudging each other with their decorative spikes.

I think that the shooting and such is being handles quite well, so I would look at changing the CC up a bit to make it suit better.

Turn Structure:

Move/charge
Ramming
Psychic
Shooting
Fight
Resolve

so step 1 is to move into combat with one another.

Then ramming needs to be written as something fresh. I'm thinking both parties roll D6+remaining wounds, and then apply:
+2 if you charged
+1 for each point of toughness you have over the opponent
Whoever rolls lowest takes mortal wounds equal to the difference.

EG a T6 tank (P1) with 5 wounds left rams a T8 tank (P2) with only 3 wounds left. P1 rolls D6 + 7 (+5,+2), P2 rolls D6 + 5 (+3,+2)

so if P1 fluffed and rolled a 1, and P2 rolled 5, P1 takes 2 mortal wounds.

This would be exactly the same for running over monsters, only the monsters will likely rip the tanks apart in CC, which tanks don't do so much, so you might want to avoid the "Just another bug under the treads!" approach. also ramming a warbuggy into a full-health monolith will have the same effect as ramming, say, a bunker.


What do you think?

 Lance845 wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

RevlidRas wrote:
I would strongly recommend that any Stratagem rewrite take its cues from the Kill Team version, where you have fewer resources but generate them every turn, rather than starting with a finite pool that you deplete over time.

It encourages more dynamic use of resources and less hoarding for a big combo blow-out, and also slightly lessens the already-overwhelming impact of winning the first turn.

I generally agree, but pregame strats do complicate things a bit. I don't think it's unreasonable for me to want to deepstrike a bunch of aeldari in through various webway strats, for instance, but then that implies that I have 3-9 CP to spend pregame anyway. And that's without taking into account things like the Great Harlie/Chapter master strats, extra relic strats, etc.

Although, and this is a topic for its own thread, I do feel that many relic weapons and "weapon strats" should probably just be purchasable wargear.

Easy enough to fix. Your first turn resources are generated pre game and can be spent pre game on having those things instead of having those resources being available during your first turn.

That's where my brain goes too, except that it's not all that wild for me to spend 4 or 5 CP pregame in a casual game. I might, for instance, want to deepstrike two dark eldar units with the webway strat (3CP total) and to give a couple of characters extra warlord traits (1CP). And then maybe I want an extra relic or decide to use the Poisoned Tongue redeploy strat or something. I get the impression that generating CP turn-by-turn would give you something like 1-3CP each turn. Being out of CP for the first two turns of the game to do pregame stuff feels perhaps a bit too punitive.

At the risk of suggesting adding more complexity to the game, it kind of feels like pre-game and mid-game strats should be broken up into two different resource pools. Or if nothing else, maybe the chapter master upgrade and relics should just cost points again instead of CP.

 Lance845 wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

RevlidRas wrote:
I would strongly recommend that any Stratagem rewrite take its cues from the Kill Team version, where you have fewer resources but generate them every turn, rather than starting with a finite pool that you deplete over time.

It encourages more dynamic use of resources and less hoarding for a big combo blow-out, and also slightly lessens the already-overwhelming impact of winning the first turn.

I generally agree, but pregame strats do complicate things a bit. I don't think it's unreasonable for me to want to deepstrike a bunch of aeldari in through various webway strats, for instance, but then that implies that I have 3-9 CP to spend pregame anyway. And that's without taking into account things like the Great Harlie/Chapter master strats, extra relic strats, etc.

Although, and this is a topic for its own thread, I do feel that many relic weapons and "weapon strats" should probably just be purchasable wargear.

Easy enough to fix. Your first turn resources are generated pre game and can be spent pre game on having those things instead of having those resources being available during your first turn.

Or just get rid of pregame strats.

Just get rid of pregame strats.

For Daemons I think that's a terrible idea, no pregame strats no DS, that's been their key thing since forever and summoning is in no state to take over. It would really hurt Knights which I love, but I'm very biased. I have no idea why you need to generate CP every turn instead of before the game. If you want to blow your load T0 or T1 then that's fine by me, as long as all those Stratagems you used are fair and balanced.

If you want to curb the insanity of the damage output some armies can output turn 1, then you could limit Stratagems to turn 2+ or 3+, that leaves 1-2/2-3 turns to deal with the problem unit that abuses the Stratagem before it goes off, but the problem isn't the system but the individual broken pieces within that system. .